Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka’bah come from?

Aap ko daad deni chahiyey for your patience…

Aapas ki baat hai, you our brethren across the border give far too much attention and respect to his kind, it makes them forget their auqaat, it’s in his fitrat to be critical of Islam, he’s jealous.

He’s not really interested in the truth. He’s only pulling at every straw he can to paint Islam as polytheism because he has a complex, he knows his own parastish/pooja of his dozen lifeless idols/statues is stupidity, iss liyey hamen bhi apne saath milaa raha hai..

:naooz: I once read on one of their sites that the Kaabah Shareef is a giant Lingam (hello it’s not a statue, it’s a building!), all this rubbish is fed to them by their Pundits and they eagerly lap it up in their extremist Ashrams and Gurukuls where they also learn that the Taj Mahal was a Hindu temple.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Weak argument? All you have here is a similar name, and the knowledge of a "genuine Christian". That makes it very clear? Sorry, I require more than that. Non-Muslims could attribute this to the author(s) of the Quran pulling liberally from Jewish/Christian scripture.

Do you even know the distance between Mecca and Jerusalem? How likely is it that the Psalmist recommended pilgrims make a detour through Mecca on their pilgrimage to Mt. Zion?

Even so, this is a passing mention in Pslams. There is nothing to indicate the ritual surrounding kaaba. Surely the Jews would honor Abraham (the first Jew) if this was a ritual he followed. As mentioned earlier, the only similar ritual was perfromed by paegans.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Anymore queries? Bro I never expected you to solve any of my queries. I know your intentions are good but I also know your tunnel thinking.

Anyway, I repeat !! Please stop thinking that the Hindu way of Idol Worshiping is what Idol Worshiping is.

According to your comments, a majority of Hajj Pilgrims are committing shirk. I will stop wasting more time trying to explain why the practices and rituals associated with Kaaba do qualify as Idol Worship.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

^IMHO, the pagans of Arabs believed they followed the religion of Abraham, i.e. the religion of Haneef for this a good read about pre-islamic arabia should be read.
Just other point to believe they followed the religion of Abraham is the circumcision to be done in the first 7 days.
A good read would be
THE CONCEPT OF ALLAH AS THE HIGHEST GOD, IN PRE-ISLAMIC ARABIA
( A study of Pre-Islamic Arabic Religious poetry)
By Najmah Suyuti,
Below is the abstract only second paragraph,

Through verse the ancient Arabs expressed how they conceived of their
deities, whether, idols representing various gods and goddesses, or Alla. These verses make it clear that Allah alone was not represented by any idol, allowing us to infer that He was regarded as superior to other deities. This thesis, therefore,attempts to show how the ancient Arabs expressed through poetry their belief in Allah as the Lord of Gods, which was the true nature of their ancestral belief, the haniffiyah, the religion of their forefathers Abraham and Ishmael.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

I agree as a very humble person i am not able to make you understand and likewise, as i say you might be right and i might be wrong or vice versa.

Secondly i never did say anything about hindus and idol worship just mentioned that i have to step into the shoes of any hindu to understand not like i made any derogatory statement.

Well thanks for all your precious time.
PS Yea tunnel thinking kya hoti hain, my english is weak PM kardo bhai aur itni gaadi english.
Regards,

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


This coming from someone who believes sex a form of worship and the ultimate reward in heaven? Who hopes for a daily twink in the afterlife? Spare me please.

I don't consider the awesome natural beauty God has blessed us with as neither materialistic, shallow or superficial. They are examples of His awesome power and the beauty He can create. IMO you have to be a believer to appreciate these things.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka’bah come from?

According to Islam each earlier community was sent their own Prophet and each Prophet brought slightly different rituals/shariah/laws, the main thing they had in common was devotion to God alone but the details varied.

Sometimes these Prophets came consecutively during different times, other times simultaneously to different people at the same time, maybe the rituals centred around the Kaabah were only revealed for the Arabs/Ishmaelites and not the Israelites back then?

The Pagans (pre-Islamic Arabs) you refer to are descended from Abraham through his son Ishmael, they once followed the religion of their forefathers and worshipped God alone and later adopted idolatry/shirk/avodah-zarah from foreign nations, the same way Christians adopted the trinity (I think all denominations except JW’s) and mother-goddess worship (Mariamites, Catholics, Orthodox) after Christ :as: from pagan sources…

Same way the early Ishamelites were monotheists but later incorporated polytheism into their religion whilst still believing in Allaah as the Supreme deity the way Catholics still believe in Allah/Elohim/Jehovah as the Supreme deity despite praying/worshipping Jesus :as:, Mary :as:, the Saints, Angels on the side etc…

PS. We don’t believe in the infallibility of the Judeo-Christian scriptures, they might point to some truths but we believe they are highly flawed due to tampering by the early clergy so they’re not a perfect historical source, the Israelites were never to keen on their Ishmaelite cousins so it wouldn’t surprise me if they downplayed the importance of a temple built by their forefather Ishmael. .

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

This is all conjecture and speculation. Nothing more.

And since you are keen on linking paegan practices/shirk on Judiasm/Christianity, I'm sure you aren't surprised to learn that many believe Islam follows some paegan practices, Arabic cultural practies and a form of worship toward Muhammed. You also won't be surprised that non-Muslims equally do not believe in the infallibity of Islamic scripture or as an accurate historical source.

So it s all boils down to perspective, biases, faith and beliefs. No one can call the other wrong, but I fail to see any proof here that the ritual of the kaaba was in any way part of early Abrahamic beliefs.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Hahaha, I didn't say I'd be getting a daily twink, I was kind of hoping for it but it turns out I was hoping in vain.. I agree I was being an abomination thinking mucky thoughts like that, the mohel should have sliced it all off.

Heaven is a mystery in the Islamic religion, no mind has seen it and no mind has truly concieved it, it is too great to fathoom.

the pleasures are explained but they will be different than on earth and beyond comprehension, even our bodies will be different..

Besides for every Muslim the ultimate reward of Heaven is the Deedaar/Darshan/Sight/Meeting of Allaah and being in His Presence..

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Yep, I hear all that on the God Channel, Revelation etc. all the time and they're welcome to their beliefs, it's between them and Allaah (even Allaah is not Alaha/Elohim to them but some moon-deity, I think Arab Christians and Arabic-speaking Jews will disagree)...

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Excellent question. Keep in mind that walking around the Kaaba, the way we do, was a ritual ALSO done by pagans in Arabia (the Kuffar).

This is simply God's way of saying, that look, an action only holds the meaning that you give to it. If history was rewinded, and instead of being asked to circle the Kaaba 7 times, we had been asked to climb Mount Hira 7 times, the symbolic meaning would stay the same. You're worshipping God, in a ritual. Its not the action, its the meaning you give to it.

You go there, take out your time, your energy, saccrifice some of your luxuries (like not wearing clothes and instead, wearing a towel and fearing that it might drop any minute to everyone's laughter), and perhaps your health (not easy for sick people to do it), to worship God.

We pray 5 times (or 3x for Shias, or well, for some, (lets be real) once a year). We don't have this image in our head of this rock. We don't ask it to give us health, wealth, and wisdom. We don't say "sorry" to it, when we've done something wrong.

Obviously, we're not worshipping the rock.

Telling me I worship a rock, is pretty insulting. I'm sure many other muslims feel the same way.

By the way, why is it that when you go to Makkah, you see people fighting each other and climbing over each other to get to the rock. Haven't people ever heard of a little something called a "line"?

Maybe the Saudi government needs to start a ticket system. Like Disney.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

You mean when they're pushing and shoving and knocking poor inquisitive small people like me down to the ground only to get trampled on just to get a good look at it? Yeah, that does make it idol worship.

Which is why the Saudi government needs to stop this behavior. Give them a good flogging for acting like that - they'll all get in a straight line.

I don't believe that kissing the rock is really something we should be doing - just another form of idol worship.

Now if you want to look at it, there's nothing wrong with that. Looking doesn't mean worshipping. But if you're going all gung-ho to take a look at it...something tells me you're disturbed.

It probably is a meteriorite.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

See you probably have different definition of "worship", to Muslims "worship" means believing in its powers. If anyone believes that stone has divine powers and circumabulates around it to "please" it and expect some return then yeah that would be "stone worship", but that is not what Muslims do.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

hahahaha

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka’bah come from?

Captain1, muslims define worship in many different ways. Your definition of worship is very different than the guy in a recent thread who was arguuing that we’ve begun to worship capitalism, and hence capitalism is haraam.

His reason was something like - we believe in it so much, its become part of our daily life, and so we worship it and its shirk.

That’s why some scholars go so far as to ban TV and music. To them, if you give any attention to something more than you’d give to your namaz, it becomes worship.

Yet, no one condemns people going haywire and hurting one another just to get closer to this rock during tawaaf? Do you have any idea how many people get pushed and shoved and hit with elbows over this thing? And yet, watching TV is haraam because it consumes you?

:rolleyes:

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Well now, I don't mean that in a funny way. Its a good scientific explanation to what the Hadith's allude to. The whole - its from heaven - talk.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


I guess the bold part sums it up...

  • I do not think there are any rituals divinely prescribed.

  • For the second part, I think even pagans can use the same argument.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka’bah come from?

To a certain someone who likes to differenciate between statues and buildings, I guess these are buildings too:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/imagehosting/1643446b902bf3d4e4.jpg

And now for the real question

Ok first off, bibakkatu means “WITH bakka(t)” and not “at Bakkat(t)” … so

“the first house was appointed for men WITH bacca(t): A blessing and guidance for the worlds.”

Revealing isn’t it? In the sense it may not be a proper name…

Second, bibaTni does not mean "in the valley of "… but rather “amidst”. Secondly, the word makka(t) has a meaning and that is “destruction”

Now let’s try this verse as well:

“And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them amidst destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.”

Also, for those who think Abraham’s ways were known (or were remotely followed by) the prophet’s tribe, then how do you explain:

36:6 That you may warn a people whose fathers were not warned, so they are heedless.

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?

Makkah was Bakkah before...Like Karachi was Kalanchi...

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Re: Where did the Black Stone held in Ka'bah come from?


Semitic languages have a property of roots... so by changing one of the elements of the root, you are changing the meaning. So this argument is not only unlikely, it's stupid.