What should be the criteria to be a khalifa of muslim ummah?

Re: Re: AK 47

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Hi!!

I think we have 124,000 umbeyas

The last is prophet Mohammed (pbuh)

We have four Khulafaei Rasheeda (MUTAFIQ ELAHE)

The last is Hazrat Ali

When we follow the directions of our last prophet and we do not go for following the previous ambeyas in total 123,000
[/QUOTE]
Corrections

We have four Khulafaei Rasheeda (NOT MUTAFIQ ELAHE)

The last is Hazrat Ali (THERE ARE TOTAL 12 kHOLAFA, NOT 4)

When we follow the directions of our last prophet and we do not go for following the previous ambeyas in total 123,000 (THIS IS 123,999)

Re: inuit

Hi!!!

What I have studies in theology books of Pakistan there are four khalifa e Rasheeda; who are mutafiq ellayh, between shia and sunnis.

Yes I recall shia(Imamies --all of them) believe in 12 imams.

Do you mean those? If yes then they do not believe in having khilafat at all. I know it.

Thanks for correcting my maths. the remaining ambeyahs are 123999.
Sukreya once again.

But I think my thread would make shias(Imamies) also agree to have khilafat by election like Ali's Khilafate-----. Bye Sokoon

Re: Re: inuit

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Hi!!!

What I have studies in theology books of Pakistan there are four khalifa e Rasheeda; who are mutafiq ellayh, between shia and sunnis.

Yes I recall shia(Imamies --all of them) believe in 12 imams.

Do you mean those? If yes then they do not believe in having khilafat at all. I know it.

But I think my thread would make shias(Imamies) also agree to have khilafat by election like Ali's Khilafate-----. Bye Sokoon
[/QUOTE]
I can say that the theology books of Pakistan are wrong on this issue. khalifa e Rasheeda is not mutafiq ellayh, between shia and sunnis.

Khilafat is not kingdom; its not power; its not government. It IS the successorship. The one who comes after someone to take his place is called Khalifa. People have to follow it; True Khalifa cant force like Prophet cant force for his acceptance. Shia are the one who believe in true Khilafat. The Khalifa OF Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) is the Imam OF Ummah.

Note: “Khalifa of Ummah” is not grammatically and practically true term. Its “Khalifa of Prophet” (Khalifa tul Rasool).

Shia don’t accept the method of establishment of khilafa tul Rasool (PBUH) by election. They believe that only Allah can make Khalifa and we get this information through “Nuss” (Nomination) from Prophet Muhammad(PBUH). There are 12 Khalifas of Prophet Muhammad about whom he told us in Hadith. This is the only and main dispute among Shias and Sunnis.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *

You accepted the 20 Ottoman Caliphs, but then say Islam does not recognise monarchy. Notice the difference here.
[/QUOTE]

monarchy is not accepted in islam, if the rulers where elected because they where sons or related to previous khalifh just on basis that they where related and not on there qualities as leaders then this is not allowed. However the ottoman khilfah was valid because they still implented the islamic laws and canons.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by inuit: *
What else democracy is: There are 2, 3, 4 or even 5 candidates for the leadership, who meet certain **conditions
* like they are citizen, there should not be any allegation against them for crime, Mature (mean certain age), loyal, certain education and you simply vote for one of these candidates.
[/QUOTE]

I think you been thinking too much that islam = democracy which is completly false concept and i challenge anyone to proove this wrong.

Democracy = Government by the people; that form of
government in which the sovereign power resides in the people as a whole, and is exercised either directly by them

Islamic concept of sovereignty. Muslims are not allowed to run their affairs any way they please, but have to rule according to what Allah has revealed. So, for example, the people cannot decide by majority to make interest (riba) lawful or prohibit jihad. Thus, sovereignty resides with Allah (SWT) and His Shari'ah.

The small example above shows clearly why democracy and Islam are totally different and not comptaible they are 2 totally different ideologies.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
....Thus, sovereignty resides with Allah (SWT) and His Shari'ah.
.....
[/QUOTE]

Case closed!

Allah can not preside over the assembly and Shariah is in the hands of Mullah-Aya-Tullah nexus.

Calssic catch 22!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
......The small example above shows clearly why democracy and Islam are totally different and not comptaible ....
[/QUOTE]

Democracy and Muslims are compatible for sure. However Mullah is not at all compatible with any peaceful ideology.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

......i challenge anyone to proove this wrong.
[that]....Muslims are not allowed to run their affairs .....
[/QUOTE]

Yeap! It is hard to prove anyone wrong who may be a proponent of Mullha-cracy.

Pakistan needs to be saved from the savage Aya-Tullah-Mullahs.

14th August congrats to brave Pakistanis.

Long live Pakistan and Pak-army.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *
Democracy and Muslims are compatible for sure. However Mullah is not at all compatible with any peaceful ideology.

[/QUOTE]

There is no democracy in Islam. Did the prophet (pbuh) or any of Caliphs hold elections?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *

There is no democracy in Islam. Did the prophet (pbuh) or any of Caliphs hold elections?
[/QUOTE]

You would be much better off ignoring certain people.

^agree with the above!

[QUOTE]
democracy which is completly false concept and i challenge anyone to proove this wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Indeed you spoke the Truth.

Deocracy is whole different Religion to Islaam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

monarchy is not accepted in islam, if the rulers where elected because they where sons or related to previous khalifh just on basis that they where related and not on there qualities as leaders then this is not allowed. However the ottoman khilfah was valid because they still implented the islamic laws and canons.
[/QUOTE]
You can’t justify the action by seeing its result. If you do then all those issues will be in doubt in which we clearly say a wrong; wrong. For example: we can’t justify US military action in Iraq even if US say that he is doing it for peace. Similarly we can’t justify the theft action of a theft after if he pays his money to build a mosque.

Ottoman Empire ruled for seven centuries; from the 13th century until the 20th century - it was not a short period. Thirty-six kings/Caliphs came one after the other. This is year 2004 and you are saying that “their Khilfah was valid because of the reason so and so”. You justified the validity of their Khilfah making the outcome as base, which is wrong, because you are seeing them now and seeing them as a whole including the end result. Just consider that you were present in the time of the 2nd king; would you say that the appointment of the 2nd king is valid, obviously ‘No’, same as 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on til 36th. Because that was a monarchy that is why we see their monarchy according to the rulings of islam not their other actions which they were doing in favor of Islam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

I think you been thinking too much that islam = democracy which is completly false concept and i challenge anyone to proove this wrong.

Democracy = Government by the people; that form of
government in which the sovereign power resides in the people as a whole, and is exercised either directly by them

Islamic concept of sovereignty. Muslims are not allowed to run their affairs any way they please, but have to rule according to what Allah has revealed. So, for example, the people cannot decide by majority to make interest (riba) lawful or prohibit jihad. Thus, sovereignty resides with Allah (SWT) and His Shari'ah.

The small example above shows clearly why democracy and Islam are totally different and not comptaible they are 2 totally different ideologies.
[/QUOTE]
Same in Democracy – in a Democratic country people can not decide any things which go against the state affairs. There are Boundaries and limitation in democracy as well. If you read certain constitutions you will find certain restrictions. Some Acts are so strict; upon violation they even put one to death even. However these are not the questions. The question is how will you construct the institute of Khalafat. If you say that “by vote”; it means its democracy whatever method you adopt and whatever religious/social/cultural restrictions you apply on that system. Better if you take the complete Khalafat system from Allah as He gave you the Shari’ah, which is completely free from any type of voting.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by antiobl: *

Allah can not preside over the assembly and Shariah is in the hands of Mullah-Aya-Tullah nexus.

Democracy and Muslims are compatible for sure. However Mullah is not at all compatible with any peaceful ideology.

Yeap! It is hard to prove anyone wrong who may be a proponent of Mullha-cracy.

Pakistan needs to be saved from the savage Aya-Tullah-Mullahs.
[/QUOTE]
Isn’t it the same in other systems; they have something in their hands to target oppressed people. Certainly there are other classes too. See who is in power. Good and bad is everywhere, you have to find it; a little struggle is requried. but mostly people dont do that. These classes, like Mullah, Ayatullah, politicians, etc would not work. Bye the way from which class you belong. A human being?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
You can’t justify the action by seeing its result. If you do then all those issues will be in doubt in which we clearly say a wrong; wrong. For example: we can’t justify US military action in Iraq even if US say that he is doing it for peace. Similarly we can’t justify the theft action of a theft after if he pays his money to build a mosque.

Ottoman Empire ruled for seven centuries; from the 13th century until the 20th century - it was not a short period. Thirty-six kings/Caliphs came one after the other. This is year 2004 and you are saying that “their Khilfah was valid because of the reason so and so”. You justified the validity of their Khilfah making the outcome as base, which is wrong, because you are seeing them now and seeing them as a whole including the end result. Just consider that you were present in the time of the 2nd king; would you say that the appointment of the 2nd king is valid, obviously ‘No’, same as 3rd, 4th, 5th and so on til 36th. Because that was a monarchy that is why we see their monarchy according to the rulings of islam not their other actions which they were doing in favor of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

So are you saying the ottoman khilfah is invalid yes or no i want to be clear on this before i comment,because i am not sure of what you are trying to say?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
Same in Democracy – in a Democratic country people can not decide any things which go against the state affairs. There are Boundaries and limitation in democracy as well. If you read certain constitutions you will find certain restrictions. Some Acts are so strict; upon violation they even put one to death even. However these are not the questions. The question is how will you construct the institute of Khalafat. If you say that “by vote”; it means its democracy whatever method you adopt and whatever religious/social/cultural restrictions you apply on that system. Better if you take the complete Khalafat system from Allah as He gave you the Shari’ah, which is completely free from any type of voting.
[/QUOTE]

In islam you are allowed to vote for a candidate this is called the bayah oath of allegiance. This was one of the 6 methods of selecting a khilafh during the khilafah rashida.

Democracy is man made how you even compare it to islam.

In Democracy alcohol is allowed, Riba is allowed, even prostitution is allowed in some of these democratic countries. And you saying this is same as islam aoozibillah.

One day democracy says ok drugs are illegal tommorow they will vote and say it is legal.

In islam everything is fixed no messing about you know where you stand with islam.

Democracy is the product of the human mind and not from Allah (swt). It does not rely on the divine revelation, nor has it any connection to any religion revealed by Allah to His Messengers.

Democracy is kufr any muslim should know this because you accepting that man makes the laws. Allah(swt) says in koran “Whatever the Messenger brought to you take it, and whatever he forbade you, leave it.”[TMQ: Al-Hashr: 7]

"The only deen Allah accepts is Islam…" (TMQ Aali Imran, 3: 19)

Allah(swt) has very harsh words for those that wish to implment ideas like democracy or communism and other non islamic concepts** Allah (swt) says: “And whoso does not judge by whatever Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 44].**

If these evidence is not enough for you brother to show democracy as a kufr system which should be rejected than all i can say is may allah(swt) guide you.

[quote]
In islam you are allowed to vote for a candidate this is called the bayah oath of allegiance. This was one of the 6 methods of selecting a khilafh during the khilafah rashida.
[/quote]

Good, sounds wonderful.

[quote]
Democracy is man made how you even compare it to islam.
[/quote]

Man is made by Allah (SWT) and gave man the brains and guidance. Called man ‘ashraf-ul-makhlooqat” and sent thousands of messengers upon them.

[quote]
In Democracy alcohol is allowed, Riba is allowed, even prostitution is allowed in some of these democratic countries. And you saying this is same as islam aoozibillah.
[/quote]

This is a not a true statement. Democracy is what people choose it should be (with some basic guidelines of right and wrong), so if a country’s people choose not to have Alcohol, Riba, and Prostitution per democratic system these things will be banned in that state. You can take democratic system and establish Islamic law as the basis of the democratic system. Customize it per your need and Islam being the foundation. Call it Islamic Governance System or some other fancy name, does not really matter. What matters is people choose who their leader is and what rules/laws they want keeping Islam as the foundation. Islam is strict and clear in some areas and flexible and open for interpretations in some areas.

Also keep in mind that the sins that you mention here used to happen and have been happening in all times and in all societies.

[quote]
One day democracy says ok drugs are illegal tommorow they will vote and say it is legal.
[/quote]

Again if you establish something as illegal that people can’t vote on that will be the end of it. Like people can’t vote in any democratic system that murder should be legalized.

[quote]
In islam everything is fixed no messing about you know where you stand with islam.
[/quote]

Broad generalization and u make it seem like Islam is very rigid in “all” things. Yes, there are some basic things that you cannot “mess around” with but Islam also left a lot of stuff open for humans to interpret and apply logic and reasoning and using guidelines provided by Allah (SWT).

[quote]
Democracy is the product of the human mind and not from Allah (swt). It does not rely on the divine revelation, nor has it any connection to any religion revealed by Allah to His Messengers.
[/quote]

Well take a democratic system and make Islam its foundation.

[quote]
Democracy is kufr any muslim should know this because you accepting that man makes the laws. Allah(swt) says in koran “Whatever the Messenger brought to you take it, and whatever he forbade you, leave it.”[TMQ: Al-Hashr: 7]
[/quote]

Absolutely true, but I read it differently. I don’t see anywhere here that man made governing system is Haram.

[quote]
"The only deen Allah accepts is Islam…" (TMQ Aali Imran, 3: 19)
[/quote]

Bayshak, but this ayat has no relevance in this discussion.

[quote]
Allah(swt) has very harsh words for those that wish to implment ideas like democracy or communism and other non islamic concepts Allah (swt) says: “And whoso does not judge by whatever Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 44].
[/quote]

Again, you are reading something completely different from what I am reading. I am reading here if you disobey His commands and His rules you are a disbeliever. No where in this ayat He says that democracy is kufur or man cannot make his own governing system based on His revelations.

[quote]
If these evidence is not enough for you brother to show democracy as a kufr system which should be rejected than all i can say is may allah(swt) guide you.
[/quote]

May Allah (SWT) guide us all. aameen

If allah(swt) says if you take anything other than islam as your deen your are disbelivers can you tell me what you are if you take democracy as your system ?

Democracy has been exposed as bankrupt and clearcut kufr you can try and spin in how many directions you like but this one ayah alone which i have repeated is enough to show man made laws are totally unnaceptable in al islam.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
If allah(swt) says if you take anything other than islam as your deen your are disbelivers can you tell me what you are if you take democracy as your system ?

Democracy has been exposed as bankrupt and clearcut kufr you can try and spin in how many directions you like but this one ayah alone which i have repeated is enough to show man made laws are totally unnaceptable in al islam.
[/QUOTE]

do you wear man made cloths ?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *

do you wear man made cloths ?
[/QUOTE]

I take this as a joke. but i will answer it anyway we are talking about rulings and laws we not talking about generic items from civilisation.

Items such as clothing are from civilisation made by man using his brain to make item or product which is totally acceptable in islam.

So ballistic missle who does it belong to china, russia, US answer is no one anyone can have it because they produce it using brain.

Another more simple example a bottle of evian water is generic again anyone can use it.

But when it comes to rulings and laws as muslims we accept islamic laws.

what law you follow in pakistan do you really stop at the red light
or keep on driving waiting for some signal from top?