In islam is stopping at traffic lights allowed? rvkiz what do you think
talk about asking stupid questions!
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
If allah(swt) says if you take anything other than islam as your deen your are disbelivers can you tell me what you are if you take democracy as your system ?
Democracy has been exposed as bankrupt and clearcut kufr you can try and spin in how many directions you like but this one ayah alone which i have repeated is enough to show man made laws are totally unnaceptable in al islam.
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Democracy based on Islam is nothing but Deen that you are referring to... call it a spin or adaptation to modern and changed times as long as it is based on Islam and does not violate Allah (SWT) 's commands it is seems to be perfectly Halal... Islam was revealed for all people and for all times, it cannot be static...
The clarity that you have for it being Kufur, I am unable to achieve based on the ayats that u quoted. As far as it is being bankrupt, in what sense? do you mean financially?
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
In islam is stopping at traffic lights allowed? rvkiz what do you think
talk about asking stupid questions!
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so wthat form of goverment is approved by god?
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*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Democracy based on Islam is nothing but Deen that you are referring to... call it a spin or adaptation to modern and changed times as long as it is based on Islam and does not violate Allah (SWT) 's commands it is seems to be perfectly Halal... Islam was revealed for all people and for all times, it cannot be static...
The clarity that you have for it being Kufur, I am unable to achieve based on the ayats that u quoted. As far as it is being bankrupt, in what sense? do you mean financially?
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I don't think you understand what democracy means i have already posted the meaning before.
Democracy means the people rule themselves by themselves with the systems that they choose. Denoted as “The Rule of the people, by the people, for the people”. In essence it defines a particular political system. Although pratically Democracy by defition cannot and does not exist in reality but these aspects are promoted and seemingly represented to stabilise the masses. I think the phrase “The Rule of the Capitalist, by the Capitalist, for the Capitalist” best describes the current political system in most of the western states.
So does Democracy agree with Islam? A simple answer is NO. Why? In Islam all Rules are from Allah (swt) not People, and deduced from Shariah Evidence not People. The Muslims are obligated to rule by Islam. Allah (swt) says: “So judge between them by whatever Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce you from even some part of that which Allah revealed to you” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 49]
If you cannot understand simple ayahs which clearly denonce man made laws which are not allowed from islam then why are you making excuses for it.
Allah (swt) says: “And whoso does not judge by whatever Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 44].
If you take, what are you taking democracy man made you cannot mix or base something on kufr. Are you going to mix alcohol with water and say its halal?
You cannot refute what is clearcut in the koran.
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
.........Democracy means ....“The Rule of the people, by the people, for the people”. In essence it defines a particular political system. .....
......
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However AK wants "The Rule of the Mullah, by the Mullah, for the Mullah" **and he defines it **as a system stamped by Allah himself. Strange very strange!!!!
Mullah is not the same as Allah! Kapeesh!!!
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Democracy means the people rule themselves by themselves with the systems that they choose. Denoted as “The Rule of the people, by the people, for the people”. In essence it defines a particular political system. Although pratically Democracy by defition cannot and does not exist in reality but these aspects are promoted and seemingly represented to stabilise the masses. I think the phrase “The Rule of the Capitalist, by the Capitalist, for the Capitalist” best describes the current political system in most of the western states.
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Rule of the people, by the people, and for the people… that is great…. Just imagine if these people understood Islam and followed Islamic teachings that process that you call Kufur will actually create Islamic Democracy based on Allah (SWT)’s guidelines and revalations.
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So does Democracy agree with Islam? A simple answer is NO. Why? In Islam all Rules are from Allah (swt) not People, and deduced from Shariah Evidence not People. The Muslims are obligated to rule by Islam. Allah (swt) says: “So judge between them by whatever Allah has revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce you from even some part of that which Allah revealed to you” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 49]
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U going in circles again… once you establish a baseline u use that baseline to build the ruling system on top of it. For example people will not be allowed to vote on lets say making Alcohol, Pork, Riba etc. Halal. Since these things violate the Islamic teachings.
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If you cannot understand simple ayahs which clearly denonce man made laws which are not allowed from islam then why are you making excuses for it.
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In your opinion I do not understand it and in my opinion you don’t understand it. So now what? You interpretation of this ayah is different from mine. Excuses? What excuses are you talking about? For a change, let’s have a decent/positive/open-minded discussion without accusations…
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Allah (swt) says: “And whoso does not judge by whatever Allah has revealed, they are disbelievers” [Surah Al Mai'dah (5): 44].
If you take, what are you taking democracy man made you cannot mix or base something on kufr. Are you going to mix alcohol with water and say its halal?
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Again your interpretation of the ayah is different from mine. As far as mixing alcohol with water goes… well you can mix alcohol with other ingredients and create a medicine for ailing person, that is perfectly Halal… Muslim Ummah has been ailing for centuries now, it is about time that they take some medicine for their ailment…
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You cannot refute what is clearcut in the koran.
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Neither can you or a good Muslim.
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*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Rule of the people, by the people, and for the people… that is great…. Just imagine if these people understood Islam and followed Islamic teachings that process that you call Kufur will actually create Islamic Democracy based on Allah (SWT)’s guidelines and revalations.
U going in circles again… once you establish a baseline u use that baseline to build the ruling system on top of it. For example people will not be allowed to vote on lets say making Alcohol, Pork, Riba etc. Halal. Since these things violate the Islamic teachings.
In your opinion I do not understand it and in my opinion you don’t understand it. So now what? You interpretation of this ayah is different from mine. Excuses? What excuses are you talking about? For a change, let’s have a decent/positive/open-minded discussion without accusations…
Again your interpretation of the ayah is different from mine. As far as mixing alcohol with water goes… well you can mix alcohol with other ingredients and create a medicine for ailing person, that is perfectly Halal… Muslim Ummah has been ailing for centuries now, it is about time that they take some medicine for their ailment…
Neither can you or a good Muslim.
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There is no such thing as democractic islam or islamic democracy its like chalk and cheese opposite ends of the scale.
Your claim that islam allows man mades laws is false and based on no evidence or back up just you made your own mind up without giving evidecne to proove it. I gave you the ayahs which clearly make man made laws or any system other than islam kufr and unnaceptable.
Your argument is based on you think ayahs are not clear in there meaning ok no problem lets go the evidence and find out the tafsir i didnt want to get technical but wanted to make it simple as possible so to the tafsir which will give the clear menning without shadow of doubt about these ayahs.
"And, whosover does not rule by what Allah has revealed then such are the Kafireen(disbelievers)"[tmq Al Maidah 44]
Ibn Abbas(ra) stated in tafsir of this verse that anybody who denies a definetive judgement of allah(swt) contained in the shariah is a kaafir. Ibn jarir al tabari says that this is agreed upon. Ibn abbas(ra) went on to say the one who says that the rule of man is better than the rule of allah(swT) is a kaafir. and also he said the one who states that the rules of man are just as good as the rule of Allah(swt) is a kaafir. On top of this he also commented that the one that does not deny Allah(swt) hukms but belives that it is allowed to rule by other than what Allah(swt) has revealed is a Kaafir because he is denying that the right of rule is solely for Allah(swt).
Al Tabari shared this opinion also and this is the soundest position regarding this point.
And, "Verily, those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His messengers and wish to make distinction between Allah and His messengers (by believing in Allah and disbelieving in His messengers) saying: ‘We believe in some but reject others’ and wish to take a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for disbelievers a humiliating torment." [4:150-151]
Al-Hafidh Ibn Kathir (ra) in his tafsir, verse 151, Surah al-Nisa, made reference to the Tartars in his time, “Who put together for them a law book extracted from different laws of the Jews, the Christians and the Din of Islam. It also contained many rules taken only from their own opinion and desires that later became a system of law followed by the people and given precedence over the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of his Messenger (p) so the ruler who does that is a kafir.” (Tafsir al-Qur'an al Adhim).
Ibn Kathir it makes it clear that any notion of ruling or supporting a ruler or ruling authority, or voting for a political party that will endorse the rules or legislation of other than Islam is something definitely haram.
If you want discussion no problem but in regards to islamic state and systems it must be backed up with evidence from al islam.
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
There is no such thing as democractic islam or islamic democracy its like chalk and cheese opposite ends of the scale.....
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OK bud! Go live in Mullah Omar's house then. Woops! it has already gone kaboom.
Anyway this discussion has now gone away from the original topic: The Khalifay.
May be you two can take this to a separate thread.
Long live brave people of Pakistan, Pak-Army Zindabaad
Dear Readers,
Salaams,
There was election in the selection of 4th kalifa .Ali(R)
It means there was democracy; a kind of. Bye sokoon
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
So are you saying the ottoman khilfah is invalid yes or no i want to be clear on this before i comment,because i am not sure of what you are trying to say?
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Ottoman khilfah is NOT invalid as per Islam. Their good deeds cant prove their validity. in simple
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
In islam you are allowed to vote for a candidate this is called the bayah oath of allegiance. This was one of the 6 methods of selecting a khilafh during the khilafah rashida.
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If you change the name of wine or alcohol it would not be halal- if you go for voting for a candidate - this is called democracy
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There is no such thing as democractic islam or islamic democracy its like chalk and cheese opposite ends of the scale.
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Well then it is about time to create it. It will be like Velveeta cheese with Salsa when combined it sure will pack a punch.
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Your claim that islam allows man mades laws is false and based on no evidence or back up just you made your own mind up without giving evidecne to proove it. I gave you the ayahs which clearly make man made laws or any system other than islam kufr and unnaceptable.
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Few posts back you were discussing signal lights and the law of stopping on signal light. Is that in Quran or Hadith? I don’t think so but man made the law when the need arose. As long as stopping at a signal light does not violate any Islamic law it is perfectly legal from Islamic point of view.
Islam is for all people for all times so it cannot possibly list each and every ruling on each and every thing that a human might or might not do or can do. Quran gives you guidelines and some very basic rules and as long as they are not violated you should be ok.
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"And, whosover does not rule by what Allah has revealed then such are the Kafireen(disbelievers)"[tmq Al Maidah 44]
Ibn Abbas(ra) stated in tafsir of this verse that anybody who denies a definetive judgement of allah(swt) contained in the shariah is a kaafir.
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So by establishing a ruling system that is rooted in Islamic belief and built upon examples of the Prophet (PBUH) and his sahaba you make a new system based on current times keeping the mentioned elements in mind. So how can you possibly contradicting Allah (SWT)’s definitive judgment?
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Ibn jarir al tabari says that this is agreed upon. Ibn abbas(ra) went on to say the one who says that the rule of man is better than the rule of allah(swT) is a kaafir. and also he said the one who states that the rules of man are just as good as the rule of Allah(swt) is a kaafir.
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Assuming RULE here means governance, I still don’t see how this says that you can’t create a new ruling system based on current times if you keep the basic Islamic elements as your pillars for this new system.
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On top of this he also commented that the one that does not deny Allah(swt) hukms but belives that it is allowed to rule by other than what Allah(swt) has revealed is a Kaafir because he is denying that the right of rule is solely for Allah(swt).
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Same thing here. Point is you are not giving birth to a new ideology here by putting Islam outside of it and making a new system. Like I said many times before it should be rooted in and based upon Islam.
I will refrain to responding to the rest of the tafsir and ayat because my response are already getting redundant.
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If you want discussion no problem but in regards to islamic state and systems it must be backed up with evidence from al islam.
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I don’t know what kind of proof/evidence you want; God gave man a brain to think and to make choices. God also challenged man to look and ponder upon his creations and also challenged the human kind to explore and learn. That in itself tells you that you are allowed to think outside, invent, and so on and so forth.
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*Originally posted by inuit: *
If you change the name of wine or alcohol it would not be halal- if you go for voting for a candidate - this is called democracy
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the ottmani khilfah is valid selection of the khalifh may have been incorrect in some cases but this does not invalidate the history which shows they implemented islam shariah even spreading islam up to the doors of Vienna in Europe the mistake which they made was that they did not consolidate what they had achived.
voting for a canidate is not democracy is simply called voting for a candidate!
Democracy is the whole system where you accept man made laws very simple just look in a dictionary if you don't belive me.
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*Originally posted by ChaChoo: *
Few posts back you were discussing signal lights and the law of stopping on signal light. Is that in Quran or Hadith? I don’t think so but man made the law when the need arose. As long as stopping at a signal light does not violate any Islamic law it is perfectly legal from Islamic point of view.
Islam is for all people for all times so it cannot possibly list each and every ruling on each and every thing that a human might or might not do or can do. Quran gives you guidelines and some very basic rules and as long as they are not violated you should be ok.
So by establishing a ruling system that is rooted in Islamic belief and built upon examples of the Prophet (PBUH) and his sahaba you make a new system based on current times keeping the mentioned elements in mind. So how can you possibly contradicting Allah (SWT)’s definitive judgment?
Assuming RULE here means governance, I still don’t see how this says that you can’t create a new ruling system based on current times if you keep the basic Islamic elements as your pillars for this new system.
Same thing here. Point is you are not giving birth to a new ideology here by putting Islam outside of it and making a new system. Like I said many times before it should be rooted in and based upon Islam.
I will refrain to responding to the rest of the tafsir and ayat because my response are already getting redundant.
I don’t know what kind of proof/evidence you want; God gave man a brain to think and to make choices. God also challenged man to look and ponder upon his creations and also challenged the human kind to explore and learn. That in itself tells you that you are allowed to think outside, invent, and so on and so forth.
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Stopping at traffic lights does not contradict islamic law comparing or using democracy in combination with islamic law does contradict it as mentioned before becase you make man the legislator wholesale and to compare the 2 examples just shows a bad analogy.
Islam does have a hukm for every subject if there is new subject matter then the method of ijtihad will be done. For example for the subject of cloning islam has hukms galore.
Islam has comprehensive ruling system it does not have just basic rules as you mentioned it has laid down complete systems for us to implement today.
It is clear as daylight why you cannot create this new system which you seek because its based on man made laws which is total contradiction and even the tafsir makes this clear in any combination you want to try to mix with islam man made laws is not allowed.
Rooted and based on islam, hmmmm saudi,pakistan, iran are also rooted and based on islam and what kind of islamic systems are they implementing 0 and none?
Yes allah(swt) gave us brains to think and ponder and look at the evidence and be convinced that allah(swt) knows what is best for us not ourselves and our biased views this why we go to the text for hukms. Human beings have free rein to think and expand there knowledge how much they want to excel in technology to excel in education. But when it comes to legislation and law allah(swt) knows best for us. And around the world the muslim ummah wants shariah law from West africa to malyasia in the east.
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
the ottmani khilfah is valid selection of the khalifh may have been incorrect in some cases but this does not invalidate the history which shows they implemented islam shariah even spreading islam up to the doors of Vienna in Europe the mistake which they made was that they did not consolidate what they had achived.
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I am talking about only those "some cases" which are incorrect according to islam. Which makes the foundation of that Khalafat false. after that basic mistake whatever good they do; they will not get the reward. This is same like a thief spending money for building a mosque; who is getting his money through some illegal way and spending in charity or in the path Allah. If he wants to repent; he has to give that money back first. Without giving that money back; his repent is useless. I think example explains the matter clearly.
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*Originally posted by inuit: *
I am talking about only those "some cases" which are incorrect according to islam. Which makes the foundation of that Khalafat false. after that basic mistake whatever good they do; they will not get the reward. This is same like a thief spending money for building a mosque; who is getting his money through some illegal way and spending in charity or in the path Allah. If he wants to repent; he has to give that money back first. Without giving that money back; his repent is useless. I think example explains the matter clearly.
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The fact of the matter is if a khalifh was elected because he was related to the previous khalifh then that is wrong however, if that same khaleefh implement shariah then that is correct he made the mistake in election but in implementing islam it is not wrong.
Your analogy was wrong and not accurate because, The khalifh will be punished for that mistake in election but he is rewarded for implementing the islamic laws and canons.
Re: inuit
Hi!!!
I do not know the exact, exact difference of sunnis and shias?
What i have heard that ,there were wars between AEYsha(R) and Ali(R)
It was a war; no one can say it was a share little misunderstanding.
all those who sided with Ali they are called Shiane Ali and those sided with Aeysh(R) are named as sunnis.
So keeping this point in mind, it can not happen that one could have said, then, that sorry I was with both.
Therefore one must decide with true demarcation,that who was on right path then and who was not.?
Those who think Aeysha(R) was right must be against Ali and are sunnis
And those who take ALi(R) was right must take him right and must not side AEysha(R)
Douglla pun to Islam mein Haram hei.
Lakin wou ahadeez 400 (strong one) from Aeysha(R)? What one would do if does not take her side?And enter in the folk of ALI(R)
am I right? This is what I am learning very recently from all those who very much love Ali, and reject AEysha(R)
But dear inuit how can we leave one of the two? Very difficult.
Your RA EYEE please Bye sokoon
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*Originally posted by ak47: *
The fact of the matter is if a khalifh was elected because he was related to the previous khalifh then that is wrong however, if that same khaleefh implement shariah then that is correct he made the mistake in election but in implementing islam it is not wrong.
Your analogy was wrong and not accurate because, The khalifh will be punished for that mistake in election but he is rewarded for implementing the islamic laws and canons.
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ak47 !. Thank you for spending much time in this thread with me. its really an interesting discussion now.
We can’t look the whole scenario in the point of view of a single person. (i.e khlalifa). That if he is elected the wrong way; he will be punished and if he (the same person) has done good deeds he will be rewarded. This issue is related to the whole Ummah. If that person is elected its not allowed in Islam to rule. If he is doing good deeds it will looks good, fascinating and attractive from its face to those people who see things like that. But they don’t know the after effects. Even if these things are looking good their end results will never be good. Same as what happened with the Ottoman Empire.
If you think that my analogy is wrong and not accurate; please prove it with example like I gave you the example of thief .
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*Originally posted by inuit: *
ak47 !. Thank you for spending much time in this thread with me. its really an interesting discussion now.
We can’t look the whole scenario in the point of view of a single person. (i.e khlalifa). That if he is elected the wrong way; he will be punished and if he (the same person) has done good deeds he will be rewarded. This issue is related to the whole Ummah. If that person is elected its not allowed in Islam to rule. If he is doing good deeds it will looks good, fascinating and attractive from its face to those people who see things like that. But they don’t know the after effects. Even if these things are looking good their end results will never be good. Same as what happened with the Ottoman Empire.
If you think that my analogy is wrong and not accurate; please prove it with example like I gave you the example of thief .
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If a khalifh is elected it is allowed, the only issue i disagree with you is the definition. Voting is allowed in islam because its is a tool, even silence is a method to select khalifh i.e during khilfah if khalifh is selected and no one said anything or objected then the silence is consent also.
I only disagree when you said the word democracy which is clear indication of a system which advocates man made laws where man is the legislator not allah(swt).
Khalifah is not given the pledge by the ummah merely to be a hired man, executing what the ummah decides - as is the case in the democratic system - he is given the pledge of allegiance by the ummah to execute the rules of the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of the Messenger (SAW), i.e. to execute the shariah Laws and not what people want; and if the people deviated and disobeyed shariah he should fight them until they repented.
As for what happened in ottomani khilafah there where mistakes not only in ottomani khilfah but also in history of islamic state which lasted 1400 years obviously mistake are made why because we are human beings we are designed to make mistakes.
Even examples where muslims had disagreement over ali(ra) etc we can learn not to make these kind of mistakes again. Your learn from the mistakes and the islamic government has checks and balances to ensure these kind of mistakes are not made again.
Question has to be because of the mistakes do we reject entire 1400 years, was all of it was disaster? or is the reality is today our situatin the real disaster without not global islamic state to protect our honour or to propogate our true values.
as you can see in muslim world what they are calling for the return of the islamic state