What is this fascination to have multiple wives?

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
41

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**I didn't want to make it into a religious debate, but it seems there is no escape.

Men don't have a blank check. There are other controls.

Before marriage the husband and wife must agree on a wedding gift, called haqq-mehr. A husband must pay that to the wife (either at that time or, with her permission, over a period of time). If the husband dies without paying the mehar, that will be a loan which wife can claim on the day of judgement.

On top of that, if the husband divorces a wife, he has to pay her naan-nafqa, which means he will maintain her (and any kids) in the same reasonable life style, until she remarries.

The husband does not need permission from the wife to marry another time. So, if he can afford to pay mehar, and pays naan-nafqa, he can marry four times.

All the reasons you quoted are neither from islamic sharia nor are universally agreed. These are just excuses forwarded by some (minority of) scholars to defend islam against those who accuse islam of allowing polygamy.

Yes, it is allowed. It is allowed during times of war, and it is allowed during times of peace. Islam is perfected in the life of the Prophet (PBUH) and no one has the authority to add/edit/subtract stuff to suit today's fashions.

Just as slavery is allowed in Islam, but hardly practiced today, same with polygamy. It is allowed. The question was why would someone be doing that and not be content with one wife.

The answer apparently is that they do it either for political reasons or just because they have an uncontrolled sexual desire, which one woman can not satisfy. The latter, if true, seems an odd explanation for men of religious orientation and those who aspire to be islamic scholars and leaders.**
[/quote]

Wonderful Pristine. Almost every word.

As for funkydesi and what her anut's husband did, the example does not apply to this situation at all. The aunt's husband did not, take permission from the first wife. Im not sure if he even let his second wife know that he was married.
Bottom line is that having more than one wife is not considered bad or tarnishing in Islam. If some one abuses this privilege, it is like so many other people who find loopholes in paying taxes, collecting welfars, avoiding childsupport etc...

There are so many arguments in favor of polygamy of why it is good. But there are also many arguments against it.
The case is just like pronography. Many in US would call it good, art, enrichning. Similarly, all good christians condemn it. As a matter of fact it is one area where both conservatives and feminists agree.
But the debate can go on. And the real core answer can be only found in the long run. FOr such cases there isnt enough data to say either way.

42

[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**Face it. Islam is dominated by male chauvinsts.
If you go by Koran strictly, how many people can treat more than one wife 'Equally'.

It is very rare.

For it's times, Islam was a liberal Religion.
Ofcourse those times have passed and many 'Rules' are no longer relevant.

For example the injunction on treating slaves kindly.
No slaves anymore right?**
[/quote]

First of all coming out of you these atements loose credibility. Secondly, you cans ay this about almost all abrahmic religions (besides knowing your own pagan plagiarised beleifs are hollow and pathetic).
How about treating kids equally?
Even in single marriage households, how many wives get the actual satus granted to them? Im sure data shows a whole spectrum of situations for monogamous marriages. After all it is monogamous marriages which fail the most. Similarly, for polygamous households, the situation varies. Important thing is to apply the law.

43

I meant apply the law of granting rights which are afforded.

44

BTW, I thought you were an American Pristine ]
tum to ghar ki larki nikli

45

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

46

I think that Pristine is just jealous that the man has 4 and he doesn’t. ;-)

If he can bear some 45 children then that might take away a lot of the confusion about his fair game treatment. The man is rich, he can take care of those women better then any average man. I rather see a rich man marry 4 women and give them a home to live and prosper with it then see the same man sleep around with 18 year old blondes (just out of high school) like you would see in Las Vegas with many Western rich men.

Now, that’s what I call unfair to women and wrong use of women.

Now, on the serious side, the man has married girls from those families who are heavily involved with him in his activities. He hasn’t gone out and shopped for his wives, most of them were offered to him by his comrades to strengthen their bond with each other. His son just married in Afghanistan with daughter of the famous wanted Egyptian who is believed to be second in command of Al-Qeada.

It is also believed that Mullah Omar (the supreme leader of Taliban) have married one of Osama’s daughters.

Btw, Andhra, it is believed that the Hindu God Ram (or Laakan) would make love to about 1000 goopiaans (cowgirls) next to river ganji when he felt that he needed to make heavenly love. Care to explain?

47

I just simply refuse to believe that. I dont think God would just treat women, his own dear creations in such a way. Lets gear this toward the social aspect, newai. Marrying more than one wife at once, in this time and age, can be psychologically detrimental to the women involved. Its simply not right. I'm sorry, but lust and a sense of power is the only reason why arab men, and pakistani men, etc practice polygamy on such a wide scale. (Now from what I recall, lust and doing things just for a power rush aren't considered Islamically holy.) Nonetheless, another reason why you see polygamy more in Arab cultures is because polygamy was going on there for a very long time before Islam came into the picture. You see that everywhere. Islamically-oriented cultures have remnants of their pre-Islamic pagan rites. For example, Pakistanis and the rasm of mehndi as a premarital celebration. Likewise, you guys can say all you want about the hindu gods and their many women, but during the time that Islam swept into South Asia, the cultures of the land were GENERALLY monogamous. Perhaps I am wrong in saying that, but to my knowledge it is a valid claim. Thus, when South Asian muslims found they could keep more than 1 wife, they though "eh, we're used to having 1 wife, why take on the headache of another?" hehe. I mean, they weren't used to that sort of lifestyle and since monogamy is also permitted in Islam and actually more encouraged, South Asians never took up the practice. A habit such as polygamy in culture, I think, would be harder to break than to form.

48

Sultan Toora:As for funkydesi and what her anut’s husband did, the example does not apply to this situation at all. The aunt’s husband did not, take permission from the first wife. Im not sure if he even let his second wife know that he was married.

Sultan jii:

And what makes you say that this particular example duz not apply here?? cuz he treated her so appallingly?? Unfortunatly, I have the displeasure of knowing 7-8 such males in Karachi who *have * taken on a 2nd wife during t/ last couple of yrs alone and guess what? In all instances, t/ 2nd wives knew about t/ first wife and her kids!

Sultan Toora: Even in single marriage households, how many wives get the actual status granted to them? Im sure data shows a whole spectrum of situations for monogamous marriages. After all it is monogamous marriages which fail the most. Similarly, for polygamous households, the situation varies. Important thing is to apply the law.

That is the most assanine thing I have ever heard

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

So by your standards if a wife is already being treated unfairly, it is ok to bring a “saut” on here after using and abusing t/ best yrs of her life eh? Bringing a “saut” is t/ worst thing a man can do to a woman no matter how unfair he has been to her in t/ past. But then why wud you care and understand? You are not a woman and will never feel her pain and helplessness. You have t/ power to take on a 2nd wife any time you feel like it! And oh yes , as to that permission bit, it’s not xactly a permisiion when a guy asks t/ 1st wife (if at all he asks), it’s more like an ultimatum!

p.s. The penalty for Not asking the permission of your first wife to take on a 2nd is a measley 50Rupees!

Pristine: In Shia sect t/ husband is not required to ask permission of t/ first wife, I beleive that is not t/ case in Sunni Muslims, but I am not 100% sure on this.

49

From an ethical point of view we can say that the husband should get permission from the first wife before marrying a second. But I am afraid, under Islamic jurisprudence, there is no such requirement, either in shia or sunni sects. The first wife can request divorce with full naan-nafqa in case she does not agree to the second wife. The case will most probably go in court to adjucate whether bringing a second wife rightfully damages the rights and claims of the first wife.

The other option is that the husband can give the wife the right to divorce, which should be agreed to at the time of nikkah. In which case the wife can divorce the husband and can still demand haqq-mehar. In case of khula, she forgives the haqq-mehar and has to return the marriage gifts.

Then again, these are debatable points, best left to religion forum. I believe I am transgressing the limits of this forum and deviating from the topic of this thread. :)

50

hm i dont agree with polygamy except in very certain circumstances,

But what most of us DONOT take into account is the fact that the man has to have his first wives permission to marry again, if he doesnt he cant and ALSO that it is a womans choice to marry and the 19 year old would probly have known how many wives Osama had and if she agreed thats her problem, it has to be done in agreement with the rest of the wives as well

what i REALLY HATE (sorry but i have to say this, this topic ALWAYS gets me into a rash) is when women are treated as mere 'vessels' i.e. babymaking machines, i hate the term and though its true women do reproduce in islam they are given plenty of rights and respected for it, most men in Arab countries (correct me if im wrong) see women only good for this, i say from experience from some1 i know

God knows best maybe its a tradition in Bin Ladens family to have lots of kids? doesnt he have abt 50 or so siblings??

51

People DONOT take it into account because there is no such requirement

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

There is a difference between what we want people to do, and what is the requirement under law or jurisprudence. Just bcz we WANT people to do certain things, does not mean it becomes a MUST. A muslim man is NOT required to get permission from the first wife before marrying a second time. If he chooses to take permission from the first wife, thats nice of him. :slight_smile:

52

Is that true? i never knew that, i always thought it would be by mutual agreement, oh well i suppose when thhhe couple are getting married they can write in the contract that the guy cant get married again,
( istill dont think its fair

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

)

53

Xara you've got it somewhat correct. I looked into this thing on the weekend and according to the maulana at my masjid, the husband does not need permission. However, if women were properly educated in religion and the rights given to them, the way Islam requires them to, they would know that the nikkah nama is the place where you put down the promise of not marrying a second wife and vowing that this is the first wedding of the groom in writing. The bride can demand the promises in writing and then hold her husband legally responsible if he breaks them, regardless of what the situations are. Hmm...that is what I'm going to do.

54

Oh lawd help me, have you dear folk considered the implications of this? Orgies, orgoies, orgies!

We will now continue with our regularly serious program.

55

orgies?

56

Originally posted by FunkyDesi:
Sultan jii:

*And what makes you say that this particular example duz not apply here?? cuz he treated her so appallingly?? Unfortunatly, I have the displeasure of knowing 7-8 such males in Karachi who have * taken on a 2nd wife during t/ last couple of yrs alone and guess what? In all instances, t/ 2nd wives knew about t/ first wife and her kids!

ya ok, then I guess the 2nd wives were cool with the situation. I said that your unc’s 2nd wife “probably” didnt know, since his he didnt tell his 1st wife either.

That is the most assanine thing I have ever heard

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

So by your standards if a wife is already being treated unfairly, it is ok to bring a “saut” on here after using and abusing t/ best yrs of her life eh? Bringing a “saut” is t/ worst thing a man can do to a woman no matter how unfair he has been to her in t/ past. But then why wud you care and understand? You are not a woman and will never feel her pain and helplessness. You have t/ power to take on a 2nd wife any time you feel like it! And oh yes , as to that permission bit, it’s not xactly a permisiion when a guy asks t/ 1st wife (if at all he asks), it’s more like an ultimatum!

I dont know how your comments fit into what I have said. What I said and meant was in reply to andhra’s statement, that “how many would treat more than one wife equally?” To which I said, how many wives in our part of the 3rd world get the actual status granted to them by Islam anyway even if they are the only wives. We have rampant cases of domestic abuse, husband rape, inlaw abuse, violation of her liberties granted by Islam and hardly any say in how many kids she wishes to bear. So having one wife or more than wife doesnt necessarily bear on the treatment issue, If a man is a good muslim he’ll do what Islam asks him to do. etc…

p.s. The penalty for Not asking the permission of your first wife to take on a 2nd is a measley 50 Rupees!

we should make it more, no?

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 07, 2002).]

57

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
I just simply refuse to believe that. I dont think God would just treat women, his own dear creations in such a way. Lets gear this toward the social aspect, newai. Marrying more than one wife at once, in this time and age, can be psychologically detrimental to the women involved. Its simply not right. I'm sorry, but lust and a sense of power is the only reason why arab men, and pakistani men, etc practice polygamy on such a wide scale. (Now from what I recall, lust and doing things just for a power rush aren't considered Islamically holy.) Nonetheless, another reason why you see polygamy more in Arab cultures is because polygamy was going on there for a very long time before Islam came into the picture. You see that everywhere. Islamically-oriented cultures have remnants of their pre-Islamic pagan rites. For example, Pakistanis and the rasm of mehndi as a premarital celebration. Likewise, you guys can say all you want about the hindu gods and their many women, but during the time that Islam swept into South Asia, the cultures of the land were GENERALLY monogamous. Perhaps I am wrong in saying that, but to my knowledge it is a valid claim. Thus, when South Asian muslims found they could keep more than 1 wife, they though "eh, we're used to having 1 wife, why take on the headache of another?" hehe. I mean, they weren't used to that sort of lifestyle and since monogamy is also permitted in Islam and actually more encouraged, South Asians never took up the practice. A habit such as polygamy in culture, I think, would be harder to break than to form.
[/quote]

Dear PCG, polygamy in south asia was very common b4 the advent of Islam, since the the social structure ensured only a few priviliged haves than bagfulls of havenots so the polygamy was usually restricted to the upper class of the society. And a poor peasant could hardly support himself much less the burden of multiple wives, however xtra marital affairs would be quite common I guess. In Sindh even today it is a very famous saying among the rich wadeyras that a man is not man enough unless he forms sexual relations with a woman other than his wife. And when it came to upper class, there was no limit of how many dasis or slave girls or multiple wives they could keep.
Keep in mind that Islam met fierce opposition in Arabia precisly because it was couter to the prevalent culture and not accomodating. Hence Islam has allowed a man to have 4 wives with the conditions being met. It would be a good thing to educate women of our age, and have them make the tobe husband sign a prenuptual agreement statting that he would marry only her, and incase he violates this agreement she;ll get divorce along with blah blah blah.

I cannot emphasize enough the importance of applying the law instead of debating whether so and so law is the ultimate moral singularity. Societies and civilization lost their direstion inorder to pursue cosmic justice. In the west forexample, in old europe and the US, there has NEVER EVER been any law against whore house or prostitution. NEVER. As a matter of fact in the American
"chivalrous" south it was a sign of great man hood and machismo that plantations owners or landlords would go to such "pubs" or "dens" inorder to get laid. Right now, prostitution is illegal in the US and the authorities apply the law, (..in time you'll discover how difficult this task alone). Watch the movie untouchables...a time when alcohol was proohibited in the US, and a sherrif is on the ass of alcapone who capitalized on selling alcohol in black. People didnt see any rationale in this law, and in the end one guy asks the sherrif that he being so bent on applying the law what would happen if the govt. tomorow again allows alcohol consumption? wo which he ssays," i'll go buy myself a pint of beer". And hence I wdont drink alcohol, because it is haram in Islam. Sure, there are many bnefits and stuff, but one could argue how about legislating alcohol consumption like in western countrys that 21 and above can drink alcohol and no alcohol while driving etc... would it make ok for a muslim to drink alcohol? No. We dont drink alcohol and alcohol is haram because there is an Islamic law against it.

In Islam there is no room for prostitution and there are punishments prescribed for em'. It is important to apply the law. How much of the liberties granted to women in Islam are actually apllied in our poor illetrate country anyways?
In switzerland incest marriages between brothers and sisters are allowed. They apply the law, in US this is unlawful like polygamy, they apply the law. Its time we learned to do the same.

[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited April 07, 2002).]

58

[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
Xara you've got it somewhat correct. I looked into this thing on the weekend and according to the maulana at my masjid, the husband does not need permission. However, if women were properly educated in religion and the rights given to them, the way Islam requires them to, they would know that the nikkah nama is the place where you put down the promise of not marrying a second wife and vowing that this is the first wedding of the groom in writing. The bride can demand the promises in writing and then hold her husband legally responsible if he breaks them, regardless of what the situations are. Hmm...that is what I'm going to do.
[/quote]

excellent post!

59

[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:

Mormons allow it. Islam also allows it, for whatever reason, but that reason is not part of this discussion. If anyone wishes to discuss the religious aspects, feel free to head to the Religion Section.

[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited March 13, 2002).]**
[/quote]

At one time the Mormon church allowed men to marry more than one woman, but that practice has been put to an end(some time ago). There are still some groups that still practice polygamy, but they are not recongized by the official Morman church.

Brenda McLennan

[This message has been edited by bcsm57 (edited April 07, 2002).]

60

[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
**Ahmadjee, it is cheaper to have a few wives than to pick up hookers every night. I am talking in the long run. Even 4 wives at home don’t stop these camelheads to fool around. What do you think a 60 year old Shiekh looking for a 14 year old Bride in India wants? A family?? My foot.

Man, you gotta go and see some of them in Casinos they way they make fools of themselves.**
[/quote]

I think we both know why a 60 year old male wants a 14 year old bride!!!

Brenda McLennan