If culturally polygamy is accepted for men, then it reflects the sad status of women in that culture!
osama has got the 'khar' effect I would say....u know how women fall for the 'bad boys'... thats about all there is to the 'attractiveness' of such men....
- Hell..is other people...*
polygamy: having more than one wife
Polygamy has been practiced by mankind for thousands of years. Many of the ancient Israelites were polygamous, some having hundreds of wives.
polygamy was practiced and accepted by the Christian Church. The Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints) has allowed and practiced polygamy in the United States.
Greco-Roman men were monogamous but owned many slaves who were free for them to use: in other word, unrestricted polygamy
Actually there are three kinds of polygamy practiced in Western societies: (1) serial polygamy, that is, marriage, divorce, marriage, divorce and so on any number of times; (2) a man married to one woman but having and supporting one or more mistresses; (3) an unmarried man having a number of mistresses.
pristine bhai if you don't want religion talk then plz edit your message. after reading your message one can understand that you are talking about polygamy only among muslims, and one can give you replies according to religion.
Note: after response I will edit this message.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited March 14, 2002).]
I am only talking about muslims, not christians, not hindus, not jews.
I am not arguing whether polygamy is right or wrong (either religiously or legally). I am just asking what is the fascination behind having multiple wives? What is the mindset of a man who has four wives ranging from 17 yrs to 43 years? Why isn't one sufficient for these people?
So its not a religious discussion but a cultural and psychological question.
The question gets even more quizzical when the example I quoted is for a man, who not only claims to be a holy man, a religious person but also is busy hiding from world's biggest law enforcement and is also fighting a guirella war in Afghanistan for the last many years. Still he manages to marry every few years to a new girl. He has so many kids, but does he take responsibility for all his off-springs. The duty of a man is not only to sire children but also to bring them up. Why leave that whole part of equation to a mother alone? So its also a question of moral resposibility.
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
Most Indian Muslims I know are monogamous.
I think The Koranic condition about treating all wives equally is not implemented.
I think Muslim Women posting here should answer that question.
[/quote]
Andhra bhai in india hindus are more polygynous than Muslims. The report of the 'Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam', published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66 and 67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages was 5.06% among the Hindus and only 4.31% among the Muslims.
That’s interesting!!
Now that I think about it, I know more than one bluebeard Hindu in my town.
The point about Muslims is that it seems to be a religious thing though.
Infact I heard of people converting inorder to marry again!!
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One more point is the Hindus I am speaking of (3 of them as opposed to one Muslim) maintain separate houses. In atleast one case the first one doesn’t even know about the second one
there is no need to convert for second merriage since many hindu gods were polygynous.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives.
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[This message has been edited by cool down (edited March 14, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**I am only talking about muslims, not christians, not hindus, not jews.
I am not arguing whether polygamy is right or wrong (either religiously or legally). I am just asking what is the fascination behind having multiple wives? What is the mindset of a man who has four wives ranging from 17 yrs to 43 years? Why isn't one sufficient for these people?
So its not a religious discussion but a cultural and psychological question.
The question gets even more quizzical when the example I quoted is for a man, who not only claims to be a holy man, a religious person but also is busy hiding from world's biggest law enforcement and is also fighting a guirella war in Afghanistan for the last many years. Still he manages to marry every few years to a new girl. He has so many kids, but does he take responsibility for all his off-springs. The duty of a man is not only to sire children but also to bring them up. Why leave that whole part of equation to a mother alone? So its also a question of moral resposibility.**
[/quote]
Dear Pristine, if you're asking what is the fascination behind a man taking more than one wife, then ask the man who has more than one wife. Its lie asking what is the fascination of westerners to have babies out of wedlock, or why do westerners divorce and do multiple serial monogamies? I guess the person who has acted in that manner himself is the best person to answer the question.
And im sure youll find different reasons.
As for Osama being all that holy and fighter, what does that have to do with his taking another wife? Are you implying it is something negative? Or perhaps you are surprised at the fact that a man fighting would take another wife. Im afraid he is not here to answer your question neither are his wives. Or why would the leader of the superpower of the world, a father , a husband, an icon of american family would cheat on his wife and lie about it repeatedly? Now thats something which I really reall dont understand.
And I for one know that most muslim men take one wife, except if the guy is ver rich and can afford more than one...I too know of a few isolated cases where a man would have multiple wives. Good for them, its allowed by their religion, they wanna do it, if there is no coercoion involved, WOO HOO!
Pristine: "Almost everything you said in the above paragraph is inconsistent with mainstream interpretation of Islamic jurisprudence. A Muslim man can marry as many times as he wishes, but he can only have four wives at one time. And there is no condition for reason. He may just like a girl and marries her without waiting for the first wife to die."
This is not true from what I know. The passages I have read in the Quran do state conditions as to when you may take a second wife. Chann is right - the MAIN condition is to treat all wives equally which the Quran also proceeds to state that only a few men can do it or something to that effect. Thus, the Quran is actually saying, "take on a second one if you have the guts and if there is reason for it. But you probably wont succeed and its better to stick to your first wife"
As to answer your question Pristine, good one by the way, I think it does fall into culture somewhat and to plain economics and to the particular families the Arabs have been raised in. I think, foremost, the rich arabs tend to come from old families which have not dispersed genetically. I mean, in America, all the families are widespread and this person marries this person, etc. Khandans just dont exist in America, culturally and to a certain extent, they really dont in Pakistan either. Thus, these Khandani arabs have been practicing polygamy since b4 the time of the Rasul and even after being restricted (the practice should have been totally eradicated, but I suppose God had his reasons), these rich khandani arabs have kept the tradition going. The non-muslim arabs dont practice it, mainly becuz the most affluent arabs (where the problem is) dont seem to be non-muslim in majority. Thus, you see the problem with muslim arabs more. Likewise, in Pakistan, it is more likely to see the waderas and chaudris taking on multiple wives, cuz of a khandani tradition that was basically about taking advantage of a tool that is to be used only in certain situations (polygamy). You dont see it as much in the cities and if you do, its with guys who are somehow related to waderas and chaudris and they've also kept the tradition going. That is a rough hypothesis that is subject to change.
actually in one of my biology classes, we've discussed polygamy as being natural for humans. Quite a few organisms mate more than once and it seems that men are designed, by evolution, to inseminate as many women as possible (since they are making sperm until they're 80, they minus well use it to ensure the survival of their genes) and women are designed not to be polygamous, because the "husband's" genes are placed in a threat and are forced to compete with other male genes. Thus, our males are prone psychologically to make sure women do not mate more than once (hence why its such a no-no for girls to have sex with more than one male and okay for men to do it). Well, that is not my personal theory, but it is a bit more scientific and it explains why our social institutions are the way they are.
[quote]
Originally posted by PyariCgudia:
*This is not true from what I know. The passages I have read in the Quran do state conditions as to when you may take a second wife. Chann is right - the MAIN condition is to treat all wives equally which the Quran also proceeds to state that only a few men can do it or something to that effect. Thus, the Quran is actually saying, "take on a second one if you have the guts and if there is reason for it. But you probably wont succeed and its better to stick to your first wife"
*
[/quote]
I don't disagree with much of that, because it is a clear ayat in the quran. What I had disagreed with was an incorrect statement, that a man can only marry second time if the first wife dies or there is a divorce. Also the incorrect statement that he can marry maximum of four times, even if all four are dead. Another incorrect statement was that a man can marry only if there is a "reason". No particular reason is required to marry a second, or a third or a fourth time. As long as a man thinks he will be able to afford and to maintain equality (as required by Quran) he can marry multiple wives. The condition is only that he can have maximum of four wives at a time.
The Quran does throw a sorta challenge by saying that you are allowed to take two, three or four wives, but do that only if you can treat all of them equally.
The term "equally" means to treat them equally in all material matters (money matters and standard of living) as well as the amount of time a husband spends with his wives. However, Islam acknowledges that a human male has desires which can not be equally distributed. So of a husband feels more love in his heart towards a particular wife, compared to the other (or others) there is no penalty for that. Love is not something you can distribute equally, as we do not have control over that emotion.
Sultan Toora, I am not sure what is your point. Most people on this forum have some brains which they use to come up with intelligent conversation without having to live through an experience. Once does not have to marry four times to evaluate the mind set and cultural issues surrounding polygamy. If you are waiting to experience all the life's various stages before commenting on them, then I am sure you are a very quiet fellow.
Re: Osama, yes, I had these questions because of the life style he chose for himself and his unique situation. Are you comparing him with Clinton? Are you suggesting that both these men have one thing in common: an insatiable libido?
Dear Pristine, to tell you the truth I have absolutely no idea of what you are trying to ask, and what is the poitn of all this. IS this a religious inquiry? you said no. Is it a male psychological inquiry ?. To this I said it is better to ask the person who has acted in so and so manner, so that you can get a clearer picture, other wise your guess is as good as mine. There are many reasons. Rule of thumb : men are more horny (as far as permiscuity goes)than women. But then feminists say this is not true and that society has supressed female horniness. Conservative christian women disagree, and they are labelled as sissy brain washed pussys by the feminazis.
US has the highest rate of illegitimate children and divorce and serial mongoamies and adultery etc...It does give us a clue into the mind set of the Ameircan culture I guess. But can we draw that all this is the result of centuries of opressive christian values which demonize sexuality? I dont know...your questions are of this sort.
Perhaps if you try to be a little more lucid and coherrent in your inquiries, people might be able to answer your questions in a better way.
This question belongs in the religious section as some one already pointed out. And your effort to make it cultural, is causing the confusion in your mind.
Osama is not unique. Muslim armies in the past when away from home for long times many times married with local women. Its a good way to avoid coersive intercourse. Sex is a need. It is better to take more than one wife, than to cheat, lie, have kids out of wedlock, goto prostitutes and pay them for one night stands. It is better two take one more wife in countrys which are ravaged in order to support the ravaged families, women and kids etc...
If some one has more than one wife, it is a good thing rather than a bad thing, if he takes care of all. Ask the women who make such choices of entering a polygamous house.
As regards to OBL and Clinton comparison and your question if they have an insatiable libido. Maybe. Difference is one is not a hyppocrite, the other is...
and OBL is a not saint or islamic scholar or anything. Just a man, a warlord....
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited March 20, 2002).]
PYARI GUDYA:**Thus, the Quran is actually saying, “take on a second one if you have the guts and if there is reason for it. But you probably wont succeed and its better to stick to your first wife” **
Vey true. Islam has made polygamy very difficult and allowed only in very restricted and special circumstances (altho can’t think any of legitimmate reasons). Ppl simply go around taking a 2nd/ 3rd wife just cuz they think they can and have a right to do so cuz God blessed them w/ a pen-s!
Pristine this topic of yours has hit home for me cuz just recently I have been very upset to hear that one of my relatives migrated to Canada from Pakistan. He first packed up his wife of 20 yrs along w/ his 12 and 18 yr old daughters on some pretext or another to Canada. Later when he arrived in Canada, he showed up @ t/ doorstep w/ his second wife who was already pregnant.
Imagine t/ wife and kids shock and dismay who were so eager to receive their so called loving hubby and daddy!
Now this male jackas- keeps both t/ wives (1st w/ 2 teenage daughters and his 2nd pregnant wife) all in t/ same apartmant in Canada. How low can one go?? I just cannot even immagine what t/ first family is going thru right now w/ a pregnant “saut” in t/ face day in day out! T/ “saut” is due in May/June and all t/ guy’s family is praying for a boy since this was t/ reason quoted by t/ Uncle’s mom
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T/ first wife who gave t/ best 20 yrs of her life just cries day in day out and t/ daughters have turned against t/ father, understandably so, but hey who cares, he just might get lucky this time and have a son to continue his sickly lineage!
[This message has been edited by FunkyDesi (edited March 20, 2002).]
Gosh! Can someone legally keep two wives in Canada? Wouldn't police round him up and throw him in a cell for that?
I think they'd prosecute you in USA, atleast. Muslim or no muslim. Polygamy is against the law. If you want two wives, take a hike towards middle east or Pakistan. Don't stay here. Atleast that is what I understood to be the law here.
That's what my husband said too, about t/ legitimacy of having 2 wives in USA/ Canada. But who knows. My aunt is a simple B.A. from Pakistan in her mid 40s' and she thinks she has very little choice in this situation. Plus she is in a new country w/ very limited (if any) financial resources. I asked my Mom to get me her ph# so I could chk up on her but she said it was immpossible since t/ Uncle's family was mum about t/ whole thing!
It's totally sickening and has kept me up at nights cuz t/ last time I met her she was t/ one who had very actively participated in my wedding and to think of her in such circumstances pains me to no end. I feel totally useless. As to your topic, who knows why they do it. They all have a reason of their own.
Pristine, the reasons for taking multiple wives that I have been told of and come from the Quran and the Hadith are the following:
If the first wife cannot sire a child or a male heir (which is not important in modern society anymore -you can get an adopted child and a male heir isn't as important nemore since there are plenty of ways of getting around the laws to give your daugter everything you own after u die - when things change with time, so should we as muslims, but we dont).
if there is a war of some sort and the demographics reveal that women outnumber men drastically. To put it all back into balance (biological explanation) and to provide charity for the widows (social explanation). However, this is again not that big of a problem, since women do go out and fight in wars in a lot of countries - so if men die, so do women. Also, the economics of most countries are such that women can manage financially pretty well on their own and are able to thus support their kids.
Thus, i refuse to believe God has allowed for a rule in which men can just change wives like rich men change cars, with the limit of having 4 at one time.
I didn't want to make it into a religious debate, but it seems there is no escape.
Men don't have a blank check. There are other controls.
Before marriage the husband and wife must agree on a wedding gift, called haqq-mehr. A husband must pay that to the wife (either at that time or, with her permission, over a period of time). If the husband dies without paying the mehar, that will be a loan which wife can claim on the day of judgement.
On top of that, if the husband divorces a wife, he has to pay her naan-nafqa, which means he will maintain her (and any kids) in the same reasonable life style, until she remarries.
The husband does not need permission from the wife to marry another time. So, if he can afford to pay mehar, and pays naan-nafqa, he can marry four times.
All the reasons you quoted are neither from islamic sharia nor are universally agreed. These are just excuses forwarded by some (minority of) scholars to defend islam against those who accuse islam of allowing polygamy.
Yes, it is allowed. It is allowed during times of war, and it is allowed during times of peace. Islam is perfected in the life of the Prophet (PBUH) and no one has the authority to add/edit/subtract stuff to suit today's fashions.
Just as slavery is allowed in Islam, but hardly practiced today, same with polygamy. It is allowed. The question was why would someone be doing that and not be content with one wife.
The answer apparently is that they do it either for political reasons or just because they have an uncontrolled sexual desire, which one woman can not satisfy. The latter, if true, seems an odd explanation for men of religious orientation and those who aspire to be islamic scholars and leaders.
Face it. Islam is dominated by male chauvinsts.
If you go by Koran strictly, how many people can treat more than one wife 'Equally'.
It is very rare.
For it's times, Islam was a liberal Religion.
Ofcourse those times have passed and many 'Rules' are no longer relevant.
For example the injunction on treating slaves kindly.
No slaves anymore right?
Andhra,
take a look to your religion you will get the answer what religion is relevant and what religion is not relevant. I don't want to discuss it here.
once again your reply doesn't relate to the topic.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited March 21, 2002).]