what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[psyah]

@Pagluu

Brother Psyah,

Aal is a word with a very vast meaning. Followers of Firoun are also addressed as Aal Firoun in the Quran. However, Aal e Ibraim and Aal e Mohammad are none but the chosen, purified members of the family of the Prophets whom you are ordered to send blessings. To follow them is the straight path to Allah (swt). They are the Prophets and the Imams and were bestowed with divine favors and knowledge:

Peace Pagluu

This is where we part ways. Although I may accept either definition of Aal as being correct I will not accept the insinuation that to send blessings to pious members of the House, in our prayers or otherwise means anything more than us sending blessings to our parents or to our loved ones.

The reason why we send blessings or even ordered to send blessings is not because those people are authorities over us in their own right, rather because it is good adab to return the favour that they have delivered Islam to us.

A durood is a du'a which is a supplication for and on behalf of people please do not confuse it for being some sort of prayer or honouring more than this. It is good adab to supplicate for our predecessors whoever they are, we are not supplicating TO them but FOR them.

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Wasalam Psyah,

Quran has commanded unconditional obedience to the Ulul Amr:

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you.

Quran has laid down very clear principles and our Prophet (saww), right from the start to the end of his mission, made very clear who the authority belonged to after him. History testifies who had the noblest of character and who was vested in knowledge. Anyways, we are all born free and thus free to choose our own Ulul Amr.

[76:24] .... and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

"Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah." - Sahi Bukhari

All the best.

[psyah]

@Pagluu

Wasalam Psyah,

Quran has commanded unconditional obedience to the Ulul Amr:

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those vested with authority (Ulul-Amr) from among you.

Quran has laid down very clear principles and our Prophet (saww) made very clear who the authority belonged to. History testifies who had the noblest of character and who was vested in knowledge. Anyways, we are all born free and thus free to choose our own Ulul Amr.

[76:24] .... and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

Peace brother

Yes, we are free to choose the leader so long as the leader is amongst the Believers. as stated in 4:59. Unconditional obedience is not clear in these verses, but otherwise yes I agree and hence it is still undefined that leadership is predefined through hereditary lines rather than through something that more resembles elective processes.

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Peace Psyah,

Guidance is from the creator only and not what you, I, or somebody else deem “good” according to our views.

It may be appropriate here to recall a dialogue, related by Ibn Abbas, between 'Umar b. al-Khattab (earlier during his Caliphate) and himself. Its gist is as follows. Umar asks him,

“O Abd Allah, you will pay in blood, if you keep silent ... Does Ali have any outstanding issue concerning the Caliphate?” “Yes,” I replied. So Umar said, "There was only convulsed speech, which cannot establish an argument nor dispel a difficulty ...In his state of illness, [the Prophet] wanted to announce Ali’s] name, but I prevented that out of pity and concern for Islam Messenger of God knew what was in my mind and abstained … (Ibn Abi al-Hadid, Sharh Nahj al-balaghah III:97. Cairo: Dar al-Kutub al `Arabiyyah al-Kubra)

We are free to choose between the Haq and Batil and thats what the real test is,

[76:3] We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."

Please visit and read the following about the verse 4:59 if and when you get time: Tafseer Comparison

[psyah]

@Pagluu

Peace Psyah,

Guidance is from the creator only and not what you, I, or somebody else deem “good” according to our views.

It may be appropriate here to recall a dialogue, related by Ibn Abbas, between 'Umar b. al-Khattab (earlier during his Caliphate) and himself. Its gist is as follows. Umar asks him,

“O Abd Allah, you will pay in blood, if you keep silent ... Does Ali have any outstanding issue concerning the Caliphate?” “Yes,” I replied. So Umar said, "There was only convulsed speech, which cannot establish an argument nor dispel a difficulty ...In his state of illness, [the Prophet] wanted to announce Ali’s] name, but I prevented that out of pity and concern for Islam Messenger of God knew what was in my mind and abstained … (Ibn Abi al-Hadid)

We are free to choose between the Haq and Batil and thats what the real test is,

[76:3] We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."

Please visit and read the following about the verse 4:59 if and when you get time: Tafseer Comparison

Peace Pagluu

You are saying nothing to me here. Guidance is from Allah (SWT) there is no argument here. The argument here is that how do we know and assess who has been given Guidance or not?

According to the Shi’a stance it can only be appointed by the previous leader.
According to the Sunni stance it can be gained by a collective selection from a group of the people who are in associated or parallel positions of authority.

Both claim this is the way Allah (SWT) gives Guidance for a new leader

[Pagluu]

@psyah

Peace Pagluu

The argument here is that how do we know and assess who has been given Guidance or not?

The teachings of Muhammad Wa Aale Mohammad have taught us that the Deen of Allah (swt) and the system of guidance for the mankind is perfect in every singly aspect. This is very clearly stated in the Quran too.

[Maverick_27]

@Pagluu

"Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah." - Sahi Bukhari

can u provide the exact reference please ...... i mean chapter and volume

[Maverick_27]

@Pagluu

Peace Psyah,

Guidance is from the creator only and not what you, I, or somebody else deem “good” according to our views.

It may be appropriate here to recall a dialogue, related by Ibn Abbas, between 'Umar b. al-Khattab (earlier during his Caliphate) and himself. Its gist is as follows. Umar asks him,

“O Abd Allah, you will pay in blood, if you keep silent ... Does Ali have any outstanding issue concerning the Caliphate?” “Yes,” I replied. So Umar said, "There was only convulsed speech, which cannot establish an argument nor dispel a difficulty ...In his state of illness, [the Prophet] wanted to announce Ali’s] name, but I prevented that out of pity and concern for Islam Messenger of God knew what was in my mind and abstained … (Ibn Abi al-Hadid, Sharh Nahj al-balaghah III:97. Cairo: Dar al-Kutub al `Arabiyyah al-Kubra)

We are free to choose between the Haq and Batil and thats what the real test is,

[76:3] We have shown man the path of truth and the path of falsehood; he may choose either the path of guidance and offer the thanks, or choose the path of ingratitude."

Please visit and read the following about the verse 4:59 if and when you get time: Tafseer Comparison

principally i agree to the whole concept of leadership (Imamat) however its only refers to Hazrat Ali is highly questionable … provided the
knowledge ,
experience ,
administrative capability ,
leadership quality,
power to make judgment in adverse situation,
and ability to unite muslims from various nation/tribe.

**in all respect three caliphs were superior to Hazrat Ali (keeping aside last part of hazrat Osman regime). **if we see hazrat ali life from the eyes of historian his era was fraught wid controversies and approx 50% muslim did not even consider him caliph (living in syria and egypt controlled by hazrat Muaiviah) and he could not rose to occasion as a true leader to turn the odds in his favour.

some scohlar try to present hazrat ali as he was someone divine and superior to all the sahaba does not seems true.

Beside that shia imamat concept is also does not seem trure. as** not only muhajireen but also ansar ( who were local of madina ) did not supported hazrat ali**. instead they wanted to make** Hazrat Saad Bin Ubada** (sardar of banu khazruj ) the caliph. but most of shia scholars keep abusing first two caliphs for this. the fact was Hazrat Ali was not considered as a serious option for calphship due to his inexperience, young age and at that time he had not that leadership quality to keep different tribes of arab united.

on the other hand hazrat abu bakar and hazrat were seasoned sardars of queresh and very well known 4 their ability to setlle the disputes among arab. beside they were close associates of prophet.

further the performance of first two caliphs speak volume of their taqwa, administrative capabilty and leadership qualities.

Even in his famous book** “THE 100”** Michael H Heart ranked Hazrat Omer bin Khattab as **56th **most influential personalty ever lived in this world. the book contains the list of the ppl whose action influenced the world geography, history and culture. (Hazrat omer is the only muslim Beside prophet Muhammad who is ranked no 1 in the list by Michael H Heart)

u r quoting from sah bukhrai. There is a Hadith in Sahih Bukari Volume 1 in which Hazrat Omer bin Khattab has been praised for his knowledge. beside other hadiths in which it has narrated that Hazrat Abu Bakar did Imamat when Prophet was ill before his death.

so one shud avoid cherrypicking ?

[righteous]

brother ** righteous **– Have you ever met any Sunni who doesn’t love Hz. Ali (ra)??!! [of course not to the point where you want him to be loved]

He is among the righteous Khaleefs and the ten given the title Ashrah Mubashrah. There are thousands of narrations to confirm his exalted station.

Read the quotation below from Nahjul Balagha:

*With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.

Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.* - *Part taken from Sermon 126 Nahj-ul-Balagha *

Please let me know who is this ‘great majority of muslims’ he is referring to – Surely not the 12ers – as they are not the ‘great majority of muslims’!

You may claim that he is referring to the 12ers as the great majority!!

If so, tell since when did 12ers ever become 'the great majority of Muslims' - they never have been so.

And where are you to place the Sunnis - 'the great majority of Muslims'?

Are they not in the equation?

The blessings and salwat send to ‘Aale Mohammed’ are sent to all the ‘Aale Mohammed’ and that includes the blessed wives (raa)

Here we have an ayah where the blessed Prophet (saw) requests his followers to love his near and dear ones.

*Thalika allathee yubashshiru Allahu AAibadahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati qul la asalukum AAalayhi ajran illa almawaddata fee alqurba waman yaqtarif hasanatan nazid lahu feeha husnan inna Allaha ghafoorun shakoorun

42:23 That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service). *

‘alqurba’ is a larger group and includes all that were near and dear to him – Surely includes wives, father in laws.

Do you really follow the Quranic request of the Prophet (saw) and love all of his near of Kin!!

Very briefly....pick up a dictionary. Kin doesn't include wives

And as far as loving Ali is considered, if you love him then you wont love those who fought against him or conspired against him or denied him his due...

[quote]

In one of the most famous sermons in Nahjul Balagha referred to as Khutbat Al-Shaqshaqqiya (Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 3, p50). Ali criticizes those who conspired against him and reaffirms the fact that this position which “Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself” with to him is like an “axis in relation to the hand-mill”. Ali further explains that he did not rise against this injustice and chose patience and endurance instead. Many of today’s Muslims question the authenticity of this book by denying that this particular sermon is Ali’s words but rather attribute it to the compiler, Allama Radi. To others, this claim is considered totally absurd since Ali never kept his criticism of the first three wrongly-appointed Khalifs even after he was finally chosen as one.

[/quote]

[righteous]

@chacha_Ghalib

what?

is this true? can other shias confirm this? I was not aware of this before reading this post.

if it is true, what is your opinion of the other children of the Holy Prophet (saw)?

p.s. about the successor of the Holy Prophet (saw), why not follow the sunnah of Hazrat Ali (ra) himself? When he himself obeyed Hazrat Abu bakr (ra) then what is the point of arguing about who the successor was suppose to be?

please see my post above. Guiding the misguided should not be construed as acceptance of them.

[righteous]

Pagluu You forgot to address the following:

Read the quotation below from Nahjul Balagha:

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.

Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine. - Part taken from Sermon 126 Nahj-ul-Balagha

Please let me know who is this ‘great majority of muslims’ he is referring to –

Surely not the 12ers – as they are not the ‘great majority of muslims’!

You may claim that he is referring to the 12ers as the great majority!!

If so, tell since when did 12ers ever become 'the great majority of Muslims' - they never have been so.

And where are you to place the Sunnis - 'the great majority of Muslims'?

Are they not in the equation?

The term Ahl-e-sunnat was coined by Muwaiya (Initially called Shian-e-Uthman/Shian-e-Muwayia). Ali is referring to the majority of muslim ummah who were not that.

[righteous]

@psyah

Peace Pagluu

I am a simple person please provide for me hyperlinks to the references of Sunni references you have given above … like this one below, although I disagree with the translations used in this link, it is clear that Ibn Kathir (RA) had other thoughts:

Also you have done exactly what I have asked you not to do … you have mixed references for Aal with Ahl in your posts please clean these up … thanks.

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

The Wives of the Prophet are Members of His Household (Ahl Al-Bayt)

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُـمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيــراً

(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) This is a clear statement that the wives of the Prophet are included among the members of his family (Ahl Al-Bayt) here, because they are the reason why this Ayah was revealed, and the scholars are unanimously agreed that they were the reason for revelation in this case, whether this was the only reason for revelation or there was also another reason, which is the correct view. Ibn Jarir recorded that `Ikrimah used to call out in the marketplace:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُـمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيــراً

(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) "This was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet.‘’ Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said concerning the Ayah:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُـمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ

(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family,) "It was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet .‘’ Ikrimah said: "Whoever disagrees with me that it was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet , I am prepared to meet with him and pray and invoke the curse of Allah upon those who are lying.'' So they alone were the reason for revelation, but others may be included by way of generalization. Ibn Jarir narrated that Safiyyah bint Shaybah said: "A’ishah, may Allah be pleased with her, said, The Prophet went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of black camel's hair. Al-Hasan, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him. Then Al-Husayn, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him. Then Fatimah, may Allah be pleased with her, came and he wrapped her in the cloak with him. Then Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, came and he wrapped him in the cloak with him, then he said:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُـمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيــراً

(Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.) This was recorded by Muslim. In his Sahih, Muslim recorded that Yazid bin Hayyan said: "Husayn bin Sabrah, Umar bin Muslim and I went to Zayd bin Arqam, may Allah be pleased with him, and when we had sat down with him, Husayn said: You are so fortunate, O Zayd! You saw the Messenger of Allah and heard his speeches, and you went on military campaigns with him, and you prayed behind him. You are so fortunate, O Zayd! Tell us what you heard from the Messenger of Allah .’ He said, O son of my brother, by Allah, I have grown old and it has been a long time, and I have forgotten some of the things that I used to know from the Messenger of Allah . Whatever I tell you, accept it, and whatever I do not tell you, do not worry about it.' Then he said, One day, the Messenger of Allah stood up to address us by the well of Khumm, between Makkah and Al-Madinah, and he praised Allah and thanked Him, and he preached and reminded us. Then he said:

«أَمَّا بَعْدُ، أَلَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ فَإِنَّمَا أَنَا بَشَرٌ يُوشِكُ أَنْ يَأْتِيَنِي رَسُولُ رَبِّي فَأُجِيبَ، وَأَنَا تَارِكٌ فِيكُمْ ثَقَلَيْنِ: أَوَّلُهُمَا كِتَابُ اللهِ تَعَالَى، فِيهِ الْهُدَى وَالنُّورُ فَخُذُوا بِكِتَابِ اللهِ وَاسْتَمْسِكُوا بِه»

(Thereafter! O people, I am merely a human being and soon the messenger of my Lord will come and I will answer him. I am leaving behind two things with you, the first of which is the Book of Allah in which is guidance and light, so seize the Book of Allah and hold fast to it.) He urged them to cling to the Book of Allah, then he said:

«وَأَهْلُ بَيْتِي أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي، أُذَكِّرُكُمُ اللهَ فِي أَهْلِ بَيْتِي»

(And the members of my family (Ahl Al-Bayt): Remember Allah with regard to the members of my family, remember Allah with regard to the members of my family.) saying it three times.’ Husayn said to him, Who are the members of his family (Ahl Al-Bayt), O Zayd Are not his wives members of his family' He said, His wives are members of his family, but the members of his family are those who are not permitted to receive charity after he died.’ He said, Who are they' He said, They are the family of Ali, the family of Aqil, the family of Jafar and the family of Abbas, may Allah be pleased with them.’ He said, Were all of these forbidden to receive charity after his death' He said, Yes.‘’’ This Commentary is from Zayd bin Arqam and is not Marfu`

Here Ibn Khatir ( a known hater of shias and ahlul bayt) is in conflict with the Ahadith of Sahih Bukhari and Muslim where both Aisha and Umme Salma are quoted as saying that the verse tatheer was revealed for the punjatan.

[righteous]

@psyah

Peace Pagluu

Yes … indeed the Jewish nation thought themselves superior because of their bloodline to Abraham (AS) … but here is the response …

John 8:39 - PassageLookup - King James Version - BibleGateway.com;

John 8:39 (King James Version)

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Inheritance or those who inherit should be the correct understanding of ahl-al-bayt and it is open enough to be considered for wives also. However, Aal does not require one to be ‘good’ and should be translated as progeny.

Aal = progeny
Ahl-Al-Bayt = Inheritors of Muhammad (SAW)

mera bhai allah chose the aal-e-Ibrahim for the leadership role and Allah extended the promise to his progeny, with a qualifier or being righteous. Jews as a people think selected ones, in Islam only the leaders are from a chosen progeny and doesnt extend to the Ummah.

• 002.124 *
  YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: “I will make thee an Imam to the Nations.” He pleaded: “And also (Imams) from my offspring!” He answered: “But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers.”

• 003.033 *
  YUSUFALI: Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,-

• 003.034 *
  YUSUFALI: Offspring, one of the other: And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

• 003.068 *
  YUSUFALI: Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

[righteous]

I think, Ahl doesn't translate to physical progeny only. Instead, it can be translated as a spiritual progeny. So, any muslim who is a 100% devotee to Huzur (saw) and follows his sunnah completely is also from his Ahl.

However, a physical descendent who doesn't follow th sunnah of Huzur (saw) will not be called from his Ahl.

In support of my argument, please refer to Hud Chapter 11: Verses 45-47.

Verse 44/45: And it moved along with them on waves like mountains. And Noah cried unto his son, while he was* keeping *apart, ‘O my son, embark with us and be not with the disbelievers.’

Verse 45/46: And Noah cried unto his Lord and said: ‘My Lord, verily, my son is of my family, and surely, Thy promise is true, and Thou art the Most Just of judges.’

Verse 46/47: He said: ‘O Noah, he is surely not of thy family; he is indeed *a man of *unrighteous conduct. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge. I advise thee lest thou become *one *of the ignorant.’

Brother what you "think" is only relevant to you.

What the verses quoted by you prove are what you are trying to fight. That is - people from the immediate family, even off springs can be excluded based on their character

If you want to prove that outside the family can be considered family then quote a verse saying that.

[righteous]

Peace righteous

Is this supposed to be an objective argument? Who are the lovers of Ahl-ul-Bayt? What is the criterion of being a lover of Ahl-ul-Bayt? Prove it. Then show objective evidence that one party are lovers of Ahl-ul-Bayt and not zalims then you may have some sense of a discussion here. In fact don't do anything because in order for you to do so you will have to classify and brand the early Muslims in accordance to how you qualify them ...

As if we have the right to do so ... that we don't ... 'cos we aught to love all of them ... the ahl-ul-bayt.

Well do you think slaughtering the family members of Prophet (SAW) will qualify as Zulm?

If you agree then all those cheering for those zaalims and their forefathers are the zaalims of today.

This should give perspective to all.

[righteous]

brother righteous – I hope that you had a great Eid.

It seems that either you are ignorant of hadith compilation or are deliberately trying to hoodwink the people concerning hadith. I think it is the former.

Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the most authentic hadith books– Even knowledgeable Shia scholars very grudgingly accept this fact.

Only Quran is infallible.

Collecting authentic hadith was a momentous effort – Yes Bukhari and Muslim do have some weak hadith – but these are extremely very, very small in number – in fact the weak ones can be counted on one hand.

Eminent Sunnis scholars have done enough critical scrutiny of all the hadith form day one (without needing any help from Shias).

Compare this to state of the Shia hadith.

The most famous of Shia hadith book is Al Kafi.

According to reports on completion of this momentous this book, the compiler, Mohammed Ibne Yakoob Kulayni, presented it (Al Kafi) to the 12th infallible Imam – He having gone through the whole book stated as follows:

"hadha kafin li-shi'atina" (This is sufficient for our Shi'ah)

Guess what? Some centuries later eminent Shia scholars having critically gone through al Kafi declared the 76% of the hadith therein is not Sahih!!!!!!!!

You see the big contradiction between the infallible Iman and the fallible scholars!!!!

Sunnis reject any hadith which contradicts the Quran.

Hz. Ibn Abbas (ra) and Hz. Aisha (ra) are few among from the Ahlel Bayt (raa) who have contributed a lot to narrations of hadith.

Khair Mubarak Brother. I am definitely not trying to hoodwink anyone.

I have limited knowledge of Hadith, I will agree to that.

Shia Ahadith - If you read the introduction to AL-Kafi, it says accept what is in light of Quran and reject what is contradictory. This leads us to the following point.

Secondly, God wants us to use our brains.

             *008.022** *

YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah's sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.

067.010* *
YUSUFALI: They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"
PICKTHAL: And they say: Had we been wont to listen or have sense, we had not been among the dwellers in the flames.
SHAKIR: And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire.
Third, Sunnis are not sure if the hadith was to be recorded or not. If it was prohibited to record it or not.

If it wasn't prohibited to be recorded then why did Abu Bakr prohibit people from transmitting it.

“You are transmitting conflicting hadiths that clash with the sayings of the Prophet. The persons to come after you will be in a worse predicament. Transmit no hadiths from God’s messenger. Speak to those who would like you to transmit hadiths in the following way: “Behold! God’s book is with us, abide by what has been made lawful for you therein and avoid what has been prohibited.”
Bukhari

There was a remarkable increase in the number of hadiths during the caliphate of Omar. Omar desired that all the pages on which were written the hadiths that were in the hands of the public be brought to him. Then he ordered that they be destroyed, saying: “These are like the Mishnah of the Jewish people.”
Ibn Sad- Tabakat

This is in line with what Umar told the Prophet in the incident of Paper and Pen. I dont think I need to quote it again.

So the collection and recording of hadith is the negation of the orders of the two most revered figures of Sunnis.

It is all a bit self contradicting you know.

[righteous]

@psyah

Peace brother

Yes, we are free to choose the leader so long as the leader is amongst the Believers. as stated in 4:59. Unconditional obedience is not clear in these verses, but otherwise yes I agree and hence it is still undefined that leadership is predefined through hereditary lines rather than through something that more resembles elective processes.

Brother Psyah...Interesting point you have raised

But please look at the power vesting. Who has the power Allah or Ummah to vest into leaders.

Leadership is clearly defined to be given by Allah. It is hereditary.

• 002.124 * YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

[Ibn_Sadique]

@righteous

Very briefly…pick up a dictionary. Kin doesn’t include wivesAnd as far as loving Ali is considered, if you love him then you wont love those who fought against him or conspired against him or denied him his due…

I just did that!!!

– in the whole lot of online dictionaries – all of them state that Kin means: blood relatives, close relatives and those who stand to inherit from a person.

Q: Why is it that Shias go to so much bother to prove that a wife is not part of man’s family?

A: To keep Prophet (saw)'s blessed wives (raa) out of his family

The first human – Hz. Adam’s (as) first relative was a wife!!! No parents – No siblings – No Offsprings.

The following is quite detailed and comprehensive – Please note that wife is a next of kin to a man.

The meaning of the website WallaceKin.com is pretty self-explanatory, but for those who are curious I am explaining the meaning.

Kin:

1. (used with a pl. verb) One’s relatives; family; kinfolk

2. Relatives; persons of the same family or race.

3. adj : related by blood

4. a person having kinship with another or others; “he’s kin”; “he’s family”

5. group of people related by blood or marriage
   Also know as Kindred:

6. A group of related persons, as a clan or tribe.

7. (used with a pl. verb) A person’s relatives; kinfolk.

8. Of the same ancestry or family: kindred clans.

9. Relatives by blood or marriage, more properly the former; relations; persons related to each other.

Syn: Kin; kinsfolk; relatives; kinsmen; relations; relationship; affinity.

So, to cut it short, my husband is my kin, my relatives are my kin, my in-laws are my kin. They are my life. And although this webpage consists of mainly me right now, don’t forget the true meaning of kin is family.

Meaning of Kin

[Ibn_Sadique]

@righteous

The term Ahl-e-sunnat was coined by Muwaiya (Initially called Shian-e-Uthman/Shian-e-Muwayia). Ali is referring to the majority of muslim ummah who were not that.

Again brother you are ‘talking’ without full facts (read - knowledge)

It has been discussed here before:

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/185216-questions-ahl-e-sunna.html
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/170352-keep-away-sects.html
[IslamCity] ~^~ Definition of Salaf & Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah ~^~]([IslamCity] ~^~ Definition of Salaf & Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah ~^~)

Brother **righteous ** who invented the term Shia Ithnā ʿAsharīyah?

Muhammad ibn Ya’qub al-Kulayni?

[Ibn_Sadique]

@righteous

Khair Mubarak Brother. I am definitely not trying to hoodwink anyone.
I have limited knowledge of Hadith, I will agree to that.
Shia Ahadith - If you read the introduction to AL-Kafi, it says accept what is in light of Quran and reject what is contradictory. This leads us to the following point.
Secondly, God wants us to use our brains.
008.022* *
YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb,- those who understand not.
PICKTHAL: Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the deaf, the dumb, who have no sense.
SHAKIR: Surely the vilest of animals, in Allah’s sight, are the deaf, the dumb, who do not understand.

067.010* *
YUSUFALI: They will further say: “Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!”
PICKTHAL: And they say: Had we been wont to listen or have sense, we had not been among the dwellers in the flames.
SHAKIR: And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered, we should not have been among the inmates of the burning fire.
Third, Sunnis are not sure if the hadith was to be recorded or not. If it was prohibited to record it or not.

If it wasn’t prohibited to be recorded then why did Abu Bakr prohibit people from transmitting it.

“You are transmitting conflicting hadiths that clash with the sayings of the Prophet. The persons to come after you will be in a worse predicament. Transmit no hadiths from God’s messenger. Speak to those who would like you to transmit hadiths in the following way: “Behold! God’s book is with us, abide by what has been made lawful for you therein and avoid what has been prohibited.”
Bukhari

There was a remarkable increase in the number of hadiths during the caliphate of Omar. Omar desired that all the pages on which were written the hadiths that were in the hands of the public be brought to him. Then he ordered that they be destroyed, saying: “These are like the Mishnah of the Jewish people.”
Ibn Sad- Tabakat

This is in line with what Umar told the Prophet in the incident of Paper and Pen. I dont think I need to quote it again.

So the collection and recording of hadith is the negation of the orders of the two most revered figures of Sunnis.
It is all a bit self contradicting you know.

Brother righteous – It’s so easy to criticise others especially when one doesn’t have the knowledge about the subject!!!

I hope that you are not accusing or implying that Sunnis do not use their brains

Imam Bukhari (rahimullah) and Imam Muslim (rahimullah) and other Sunni hadith compilers all stated that if any hadith within their books contradicted the Quran should be discarded.

But the fact remains that only handful hadith in Sahih Bukhari are problematic.

Whereas Al Kafi was given seal of approval by your 12th infallible imam saying “hadha kafin li-shi’atina” (This is sufficient for our Shi’ah). (What?!! Couldn’t the infallible imam see that there were more than 70% weak hadith among the lot and sort it out there and then so that you Shias wouldn’t have any problems - His ‘job’ is to guide you lot, right?).

And it is a fact the al Kafi the most ‘authentic’ Shia hadith book is about 26% Sahih according to eminent Shia scholars!

You have picked fast on Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) Hz. Umar (may Allah be pleased with both) without considering what was going around that time.

At that time the Quran was in process of being compiled as we know it now.
These honourable and pious people (Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) Hz. Umar (may Allah be pleased with both)) were concerned, vigilant and cautious that no words which were not of should not creep into Quran.

Read the words uttered by Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and ponder: “You are transmitting conflicting hadiths that clash with the sayings of the Prophet. The persons to come after you will be in a worse predicament.

Omar said to his friend who went on a journey to Iraq: “You are going to a country where the population recites the Quran like busy bees; so do not divert them from their true path with hadiths.”
Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Kitabul Ilal

Omar spoke thus: “Remember those that went before you, they had books written and abandoned God’s Book. I shall not allow anyone to compare any book with the Quran”. In another instance he had said: “I will not exchange any book for the Quran.” Yet, on another occasion, he had announced: “By God, I shall not let any book cast a shadow on the Quran.”
Al Hatib, Takyidul Ilm; Ibn Sad, Tabakat.

Now be ready for a shock – Hz. Ali (ra) did exactly what you are accusing Shaikhain Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) Hz. Umar (may Allah be pleased with both) of:

Ali pronounced the following khutba, (sermon delivered at the noon prayer on Friday): “Those who have about them pages of hadiths, destroy them. For, what causes havoc among people is their abandonment of the Quran, and in abiding by the injunctions of the scholars.”

Ibn Abdul Berr, Camiyul Beyanul Ilm

They came to report to Ali and said: “The public is engrossed in hadiths.” “Is that so?” asked Ali. The answer was in the affirmative. “I had heard the Prophet say that a mischievous dissension seemed to lurk ahead.” I asked him what could that be and he replied: “The salvation is in the Quran. Those that went before you and those that will come after you are within reach of the Quran, the Book that settles all disputes; it is no joke, mind you. Anyone who abandons It will be subject to the wrath of God. Anyone seeking a truer path will go astray. It is the infallible rope of God. It is full of wisdom. It leads man along the right path. It is the Book that will surely lead youin the right direction;, scholars will never be able to embrace it totally, a Book with inexhaustible riches.”

Sunnan-i Tirmizi/Darimi

See how the Quranist use what you state to debunk hadith.

ATTITUDE OF THE FOUR CALIPHS TOWARD THE HADITHS - Quranic Researh Group - www.quranic.org

You should also be aware the it was the ‘Sunnis’ who were the first who compiled the hadith in the first place. Shias followed suit centuries later!!

Early Hadith

Are There Any Early Hadiths?