what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Society Religion & Philosophy
161

Umer called Abu Bakr's caliphate "an evil" and felt that the muslims were protected from its evil because Abu bakr was such an amazing man.

Umer in turn was nominated by Abu Bakr and Umer created a committee of 6 where the tie breaker vote was with the cousin of the favored candidate.

Let's have a separate discussion on this instead of accusing me of cherry picking.

Btw if Mr. Heart's ranking is so relevant for you then Charles Darwin (16), Gengis Khan (29) and Adolf Hitler (39) are much better than Umer who is number (52).

Hadrat Ali inherited the seeds of trouble sown at Saqeefa and strengthened during the rule of the first 3.

Please read Quran, Musa made Aaron his deputy and similar things happened that the companions rather listen to Saamri and his golden calf.

don't hate me for posting this video
162

Kin is of germanic origin and it means “give birth to”

regardless I have shown you through Quran that even offsprings can be excluded from Kin of the Prophets due to charecter

In the contextual meaning two wives have narrated Ayat-e-tatheer wrt. only the Punjattan Pak.

Wives are part of the family in general sense but not in Ayat-e-tatheer. I have already referenced and explained Ayat-e-Mubahila where Prophet chose not to take any of his wives to make this point. But you would refuse to see it.

163

If Sunni’s reject ahadith from people on account of Shian-e-ali then I reject ahadith from nawasibs. You cannot use your own sources to prove your point. Thats the rule of debate. Your sources are already rigged to your POV.

Parchey mae sawal Aya !!!
164

Yes I am. Those who start using brains revert to Shiasm.

We never take al kafi as sahih and we are open to any criticism of it, since our religion is defined by QUran. You cannot say the same about Sunnis.

But Allah took the responsibility of preserving Quran. Are you saying that the two are more powerful then Allah or nauzubillah they undertook responsibility of what God promised was His.

I am so shocked, I just died and went to hell and met some famous personalities while I was there.

Ok now I am back.

Shia’s never claimed that Prophet (SAW) forbid recording of hadith. Ali could say what he said (though you havent quoted a source) but he was absolutely right about it. Quran is the ultimate source and Ali was the second part (of Quran and Ahlul Bayt) that Prophet (SAW) asked us to hold fast, but you don’t believe in that do you.

We are way off topic, but you are way off the mark. Think objectively and honestly and may Allah guide you to the right path.

Mere liye kya hu tum !!!
165

Well it predates but early incursion were not successful even before bin qasim attacks happened but that was not successfull..
You will be denying history if you think Ummayad were not blood thirsty for ahal-e-bayat with exception of one UMAR II..
Abdullah Shah was hiding from the Ummayad's wrath under some Sindh hindu king's kingdom ..

166

You getting a bit a personal, eh? Sunnis not using their brains! Well I can retort in kind but my faith does not allow me being abusive.

So please keep it respectful – I am not trying to convert you – Hidayyah in the hands of Allah (swt). He it is who guides whom He wills.

I reserve the right to present views backed by authentic references even if they are not to your liking.

Please don’t state of Sunni beliefs of what you are ignorant of – Please first go and learn what Sunnis Believe in and then comment – don’t swallow lock stock and barrel what your Ayatullahs/Zakirs feed you in their colourful sermons.

Of course it's Allah (swt) who has taken the responsibility for preserving the Quran but He has used these noble pious servants of His for this noble task.

Please go and read up on compilation of the Quran – Then go up and read what many Shia scholars have said about the authenticity of the present Quran that we have. Please don’t touch this subject as you have said we are going off track.

You are welcome to open a new thread on this topic.

See what happens to those who abuse whom the Prophet (saw) befriended and those whom he married. Famous ayatullahs and Zakirs must have been happy to be graced by your presence and then saddened to see you depart.

So far it was going quite civil so let’s leave it like that otherwise I’ll say Salaams and leave you to it carry as you want. I like company of pleasant people even though we may not agree.

I have so attention to convert/revert you. I am stating what Sunnis believe in and you don’t have to accept it. And am certain that you won’t.

[QUOTE]
and may Allah guide you to the right path.
[/QUOTE]

Please pray that Allah (swt) keeps me steadyfast on my faith that leads straight to Jannah - I have no attention of visiting Hell even for a casual visit to meet friends/mentors.

The Hi/Bye Thread
167

Maverick my friend, there is much to clarify to you but I will in this post just like to correct myself for the Hadith reference I gave earlier. The hadith was not recorded by Ismail Bukhari but Ahmed Ibn Hanbal. My apologies. Here is the correct reference:

The Prophet of Islam(pbuh&hf), said:

"Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the ignorance (Jahiliyyah)."

Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad

The Hi/Bye Thread
168

brother Pagluu – The above that you have quoted is correct but it under no circumstances applies to 12er 12th Imam in any stretch of imagination

We have a similar hadith of times to come.

Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman said, "People used to ask the Prophet, peace be upon him, about good things, but I used to ask him about bad things because I was afraid that they might overtake me.
I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, we were lost in ignorance (jahiliyyah) and evil, then Allah brought this good (i.e. Islam). Will some evil come after this good thing?'
He said, 'Yes'
I asked, 'And will some good come after that evil?'
He said, 'Yes, but it will be tainted with some evil'
I asked, 'How will it be tainted?'
He said, 'There will be some people who will lead others on a path different from mine. You will see good and bad in them."
I asked, 'Will some evil come after that good?'
He said, 'Some people will be standing and calling at the gates of Hell; whoever responds to their call, they will throw him into the Fire.'
I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, describe them for us.'
He said, 'They will be from our own people, and will speak our language.'
I asked, 'What do you order me to do if I should live to see that?'
He said, 'Stick to the main body (jama'ah) of the Muslims and their leader (imam).
I asked, What if there is no main body and no leader?'
He said 'Isolate yourself from all of these sects, even if you have to eat the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in that state."

bukhari / volume 4 /book 56 / 803 (General Description of the Fitan (Tribulations))

Please concentrate on later part of the hadith.

When Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman asked: 'What do you order me to do if I should live to see that?'
The Prophet (saw) replied: 'Stick to the main body (jama'ah) of the Muslims and their leader (imam).
Then Hudhayfah ibn al-Yaman asked: What if there is no main body and no leader?'
The Prophet (saw) replied: 'Isolate yourself from all of these sects, even if you have to eat the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in that state."

On time of Fitnah and Fasad advised to - 'Stick to the main body (jama'ah) of the Muslims and their leader (imam).

Do you really think the Prophet (saw) by any remote chance was referring to the 12er 12th Imam?

Certainly not! He is referring to the Leader of main Jama’ah of Muslims.

The following question clearly states that time will come when the main body is disunited and in disarray [as it is nowdays] and that there will be no leader/Imam?

*

“What if there is no main body and no leader?” *

In this situation the following was the advice. 'Isolate yourself from all of these sects, even if you have to eat the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in that state."

This too can’t refer to the 12er 12th Imam as Shias believe that the 12th Imam is always present.

The Prophet (saw) has acknowledged that time will come when the Muslim Ummah will be devoid of central/Single leadership.

But all this has nothing to do with the topic at hand!!

169

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

^ so as per your belief, who has been the Muslim Imam for the past 14 centuries? And who is the Imam at the moment? For example, Col. Qaddafi of Libya calls himself Imamul Muslimeen, or the Moroccan King Mohammad calls himself Ameerul Momineen.

170

Peace brother. I am not being personal or attacking.

That is my opinion and confirmed by someone to me who was a Sunni. The person told me that as Sunnis they are always taught to ignore what Shias are saying as they are misled and listen to no evidence or argument. Just ignore them.

As a shia, we were always told to listen, understand and then respond - though i have never found that courtesy being reciprocated.

I am not saying all Shias are saints and there are black sheep, but being abusive is not our trait but of the other side. You can check history to see who abused our Imam Ali from the pulpit and ordered others to do the same. Had Hujr (a companion) and his associates to be slaughtered brutally.

[quote]

So please keep it respectful – I am not trying to convert you – Hidayyah in the hands of Allah (swt). He it is who guides whom He wills.

[/quote]
likewise.

[quote]

I reserve the right to present views backed by authentic references even if they are not to your liking.

[/quote]
I reserve the right to question their authenticity. I have seen this kind of analysis of sources in Sunnis - "this person is thiqa but we cannot accept his transmission since he was on Ali's side."

I think this destroys all claim of objectivity and reliability of the "sahihs".

[quote]

Please don’t state of Sunni beliefs of what you are ignorant of – Please first go and learn what Sunnis Believe in and then comment – don’t swallow lock stock and barrel what your Ayatullahs/Zakirs feed you in their colourful sermons.

[/quote]
I dont listen to Ayatullahs and definitely Zakirs. I think a college education, inquisitive mind and passion to read is enough for me.

  • 054.017 * YUSUFALI: And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember.......

[quote]

Of course it's Allah (swt) who has taken the responsibility for preserving the Quran but He has used these noble pious servants of His for this noble task.

Please go and read up on compilation of the Quran – Then go up and read what many Shia scholars have said about the authenticity of the present Quran that we have. Please don’t touch this subject as you have said we are going off track.

You are welcome to open a new thread on this topic.

[/quote]
So Allah needed the help of these "pious" souls and Prophet (SAW) left the job unfinished. It defies logic my dear friend.

[quote]

See what happens to those who abuse whom the Prophet (saw) befriended and those whom he married. Famous ayatullahs and Zakirs must have been happy to be graced by your presence and then saddened to see you depart.

[/quote]
By the same logic Allah befriended Iblees and elevated him to the level of Angels. I will leave it here.

[quote]

So far it was going quite civil so let’s leave it like that otherwise I’ll say Salaams and leave you to it carry as you want. I like company of pleasant people even though we may not agree.

I have so attention to convert/revert you. I am stating what Sunnis believe in and you don’t have to accept it. And am certain that you won’t.

[/quote]
Ok then please answer my questions or clarify on my observations about the SUnni Faith

  1. Prophet (SAW) was not a masoom or he could commit error
  2. All Sahaba are Aadil
  3. Respecting people who shed blood of thousands of muslims and caused Fitnah and giving them Sawab for it since it was "a mistake of Ijtihad"
  4. When there is anything against Ahlul Bayt at face value and creating lengthy and twisted justifications for numerous violations of their opponents.
  5. The issue of matn only arises in the case of praise of ahlul bayt and when exposing the truth about their opponents and not vice versa.
  6. Any Fasiq/Fajir can be an Imam of prayer and Ummat

[quote]

Please pray that Allah (swt) keeps me steadyfast on my faith that leads straight to Jannah - I have no attention of visiting Hell even for a casual visit to meet friends/mentors.
[/quote]
trust me you will not find me hurling abuse at any point. I have already clarified what I meant in the top section.

W'salam Brother, may Allah guide you to the right path and take you to Jannah. That is my sincere prayer.

Cheers

PS I will wait for your answers. PM me if you don't want a public discussion on these issues.

171

still waiting for a response to my post...!!!

172

brother righteous - have patience as it is virtue.

I'll get back to you when I get the time ( i got hectic life away from the keyboard) :) - Please don't feel that you are being ignored.

173

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Salamz to all, when it comes to inter-sectarian discussions then there should be set preconditions as to what the point of reference(s) should be or else these arguments & discussions have no end and no one ends up benefiting from them.
Just my 2 cents. All the Muslims believe in the Holy Quran and hold it as the main source of guidance. The book of Allah with the help of rational proof should be the basis of these discussions if we are to make these discussions fruitful. There were excellent proofs provided in the early part of this discussion and in my opinion from thereon the discussion deviated. I do know that there is a group of people that have problem with rational proofs but I ask them to consider that even the authenticity of the Quran depended on rational proof and Quran has challenged the humanity to answer if they could. Allah (swt) taught the Quran to the Prophet Mohammad (saww) who taught it to people. The Prophet left the Quran and his progeny to be the guides after him and this fact is unanimously agreed by all the Muslims. Therefore words of the progeny is another proof but unfortunately both major sects take separate sources to reach the teachings of the Ahl al Bait, very much like the Hadiths. When one person provides a Hadith then its almost just as easy for the other person to provide another one to refute it. Therefore, Quran and rational proof remain the best choice to be set as the main point of reference.

Some people have provided the sayings or actions of the companions and their disciples as a religious proof. The words and the actions of the Sahabas do not have any value as religious proof. Their status was much higher than us but they were just as bound as we are to follow Quran, Prophet and his Progeny who are the perfect source of guidance, away from all impurities, contradictions, and discrepancies.

Wasalam
ramesha

Ghurids were Pashtuns
174

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

^wasalam sister Ramesha- I like your post and you have made your point. But sister, the main two groups namely Shias and Sunnis have contrasting tendencies when it comes to the overall view of the religion. They clearly seem to hold the belief that the Hidayat and guidance was left incomplete and it was upto the Sahabas to design solutions and amendements for the "good" or "benefit" of the community. So when the 2nd caliph getting angry with the Prophet (saww) at Hudaybia, as he saw the treaty the Prophet signed bringing Muslims no benefit, OR when the same caliph denies Prophet (saww) pen to write his will, then according to them it was just a little error of what were his Cost V Benefit analyses! This is offcourse in contrast with the principles set forth by the Holy Quran and clear commands of Allah (swt). We on the other hand principaly believe in unconditional acceptance of religious stipulations for every aspect of life and believe it to be perfect and errorfree for will even a school administration allow a teacher that makes an incomplete or errored exam paper? this nullifies the whole idea of TEST. This is a very long but an interesting topic on its own.

Anyway, evey Muslim should try to evaluate his beliefs in the light of the Quran and try and back what they say from the Holy Quran. I have seen Sunni brothers putting great emphasis on memorising the Quran and thats great but surely that is not what the Holy Quran is all for. Stories in the Quran are simple and plain and trough them shine clear and set principles explaining everthing we are required for guidance.

[16:89] And on the day when We will raise up in every people a witness against them from among themselves, and bring you as a witness against these-- and We have revealed the Book to you explaining clearly everything, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit.

You are born into a Sunni family and you know better, so tell me do they follow Ahlul Bayt (as)? What sources are you talking about when you say that Shia and Sunni have different sources to the teachings of the Ahlul Bayt (as)? How many Hadiths has the Sunni saha sitta and other books taken from the household of the Prophet (saww)? The famous Sunni Imam, Ghazali when mentioning Yazid says that whatever he did rests between him and Allah (swt) and if Allah (swt) wills then me will forgive Yazid for what he did to the religion and the family of the Prophet. Ironically when the same Imam comments on Ameer Mukhtar, who fought and killed the enemies of the Aale Mohammad, he condemns him and curses him to no end? Similarly, Sunni Imam Ismael Bukhari accepts traditions for the person who cut the head of Imam Hussain (as) from his own hands? what standards do they follow?

175

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Salamz Pagluu,

Tum itni si omar mein aflatoon ban gaye ho pooray. j/k, thank you for your reply. Did you go to Sayyed Ammar's lecture over the weekend? wasalam

Wht r u doing ?
176

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

I humbly request you all to read the following discussion and I am sure that you will find the answers to your questions

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/5063498-post38.html
WHO WAS FAMILY OF PROPHET MOHAMMAD (PBUH).???

Iltemase dua

177

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Brother DanishJu, really appreciate your writings.

~*~ TIME PASS~*~ MaY...........
178

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Daughters of the prophet SAW were

1. Sayyidatina Fatima (18 B.H-11 A.H)

 **2. Sayyidatina Zaynab (23 B.H-8 A.H)**

 **3. Sayyidatina Ruqayya (20 B.H-2 A.H)**

 **4. Sayyidatina Umm Kulthum (19 B.H-9 A.H),**

may Allah be pleased with them all.

Wives of the Prophet SAW

1. Khadijah bint Khuwaylid
**
**2. Sawada bint Zam'a
**
3. A'isha Siddiqa bint Abu Bakr
**
4.Hafsa bint 'Umar
**
5. Zaynab bint Khuzayma
**
6.Umm Salama Hind bint Abi Umayya
**
7. Zaynab bint Jahsh
**
8.Juwayriya bint al-Harith
**
9. Umm Habiba Ramla bint Abi Sufyan
**
10. Safiyya bint Huyayy
**
11. Maymuna bint al-Harith
**
12. Maria al-Qibtiyya

AND

Sons of the Prophet SAW**
1- Abd-Allah ibn Muhammad

2- Qasim ibn Muhammad

3- Ibrahim ibn Muhammad
**

Correct me if I am wrong in my list here.

My question is:

How come all of these are not considered 'family members' of the Prophet SAW?

~*~ TIME PASS~*~ MaY...........
179

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

It is very interesting to note that people in these days do not even know who might be sick or needing their help in their own family, relatives and neighborhood but they would argue forever who were or were not, the 'family members' of the prophet SAW after hundreds of years. lol

My point of argument here is that there are so many other things useful to learn about religion and these kind of discussion lead to nothing, nada, zilch!

180

^^People care, that is why you responded.

Please go through the discussion first so you get the context. The debate is not just family but the specially blessed and purified family.