what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[dhanya_podena]

I have read about the debate of AhlulBait, and IMHO, its all about establishing a special status of "infallibility". Other than that i do not see any point.

I mean, does Allah 'exclude' people from family of Prophet pbuh, what every other person will consider his family?

Will Prophet pbuh, 'expel' certain people from his family?

Why would Prophet pbuh not consider his wife Khadija ra, who was with him in all the hardships. Why would Prophet pbuh exclude his own parents from being his family?

Nobody bothered about my post

[Ibn_Sadique]

You are absolutely right. Bibi Sara was the mother of many Prophets and her lineage included Jesus (AS) as well as our beloved Prophet (SAW). [11:45] And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" Allah's answer is: [11:46] He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" Brother answer me this question, If a son who is from the bloodline can be cast out of the Ahlul Bayt then without the clear example you cannot assume the wives are part of Ahlul Bayt in case of Prophet (SAW).

Brother righteous – you should know that this son of Hz. Noah (as) was a non-believer!!! That’s the reason he was cast out from the family of the Prophet Noah (as).

Further, the prophet (SAW) did divorce some of his wives and a couple were severly reprimanded by Allah in Quran. * 066.004 * YUSUFALI: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.

• 066.005 * YUSUFALI: It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins.

Please give me the names of wives who were divorced by the Prophet (saw).

Those wives who were reprimanded did repent and Prophet (saw) was well reclined towards them. Show me otherwise.

This example is also set out regarding wives of other Prophets. * 066.010 * YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"

This wife of Hz. Noah (as) and that of Hz. Hz. Lut (as) were unbelievers and were false to their husbands.

Care to tell which of Prophet’s wives were unbelievers?

his prediction became true and eventually we see hazrat ali became caliph . beside we see that his tenure was not an ideal period in the islamic history filled with so many controversaries and war between different group of muslims. administration was not that gud (by no mean i want to say that hazrat ali was responsible for all this however he cuold not set the things right as hazrat abu bakar did when majority of the arab bacame prosteliyzed after the death of prophet but abu bakar succeed in setting the thing rights). chaos remain there untill the hazrat hasan did baith of hazrat muavia and things settled down and muslim got united again.

Brother Maverick – No fault lies on Hz. Ali’s (ra) shoulder for the apparent shortcomings at the time of his rule. ( I'm aware you didn't imply that)

He was the most able and had all the requirements of a great leader.

He was surrounded by conspiracies from within his camp and from his opponents. There were opportunists in his camp and that of his opponents.

There were third party (outsiders) conspirators who were busy sowing seeds of dissension within the Ummah.

This is the reason of all the chaos that was created.

This was well explained by Hz. Ali (ra) himself.

Once Hz. Ali bin Abi Talib (ra) was asked by his follower as to why he was not ‘successful’ compared to the three earlier Khaleefs, he replied to the effect: “The earlier Khaleefs (May Allah be pleased with them) had likes of me as their advisor and it is my misfortune to have likes of you as mine.”

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

^ Brother DD, you have not understood the Shia point of view. Nobody is arguing that Wives aren't part of the family or "Ahl Bayt". Both terms are general and certainly do include the wives or anybody who lives under the same roof as the Sahib e Khaana. Even if your uncle or cousins lived under the same roof then they will be your family/Ahl Bayt. Whereas, Ahl Al-Bayt is a term that is not general and is bound to have exceptions. Ahlul Bayt (as) were the ones for whome there is traditions such as the tradition of cloak. Or in Sahi Tirmidhi it is stated that the Prophet (saww), before prayers, himself went to the door of Imam Ali (as) and Bibi Fatima (as) for the period of 6 to 9 months and recited the verse of Tatheer, and introduced them as his Ahlul Bayt (as). These traditions are present in the most authentic book of yours.

All the Prophets had their general family and special family. For example. Yaqoob (as) had more than 10 sons, but Yusuf (as), was special (since he was Chosen and was the most righteous and best in deeds).

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

condolence to all the believers on the martyrdom of Ameer ul Momineen, Imam Ali (as).

[righteous]

@DD

Nobody bothered about my post

DD bro/sis (if you are basing it on dexter then Sis) Pagluu has answered your question.

Can I, or any shia deny that the wives were not part of the family?** Absolutely not.

**However, it is the term Ahlul Bayt in the special chosen context of infallibility that we say that only Ali, Bibi Fatimah, Hasan and Husain are part of Ahlul Bayt.

Likewise brother Ibn Sadique raised the following point.

@Ibn_Sadique

Brother righteous – you should know that this son of Hz. Noah (as) was a non-believer!!! That’s the reason he was cast out from the family of the Prophet Noah (as).

Brother, you are right but in the general meaning of the family - the Son, whether believer or not, is definitely part of the family. Hence I feel you are in agreement that the definition of the term Ahlul Bayt has a special contextual meaning.

[quote]

This wife of Hz. Noah (as) and that of Hz. Hz. Lut (as) were unbelievers and were false to their husbands.

Care to tell which of Prophet’s wives were unbelievers?

[/quote]
Muslim - Book 001, Number 0141: * Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and **none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me*.
This is a hadith from one of the most authentic books of Hadith for Ahl-e-sunnat. I will leave my argument here to answer this point.

[diwana]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

One thing is what I understand.

Kinship and being relative of powerful and knowledgeable person does not and should not mean anything else in terms of being good or bad.

Each individual in Islam is responsible of his/her action.

Just as we cannot guarantee someone to be saved from Allah's wrath, we just can never tell someone being pious just because this person is related to prophet's SAW lineage or is a 'syed'.

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Just on the issue of "infallibility"- Ahlul Bayt (as) were on the stage of Emaan, where they simply did not perform any act that displeased Allah (swt). For example, if you have a glass of water infront of you, and you know for sure that the glass is dirty/najis, and there will be consequences for drinking from it, then you will avoid drinking from the glass. Similarly, they were at the level of Yaqeen where they refrained from commiting any act but only those that pleased Allah (swt). Let alone Ahlul Bayt (as), there are and have been many people who purified their selves to the level where they avoided all the makroohat and haraam acts. I could provide several verses of the Holy Quran on this topic if any of you requests.

If every act of the Ahlul Bayt (as) was not the Will of God then; why would Allah (swt) demand from the believers to love them unconditionally? Why did the Prophet (saww) say that sending blessings upon me is not complete until they are included in the salwat? Why would Rasool Allah (saww) before departing this world, count them as the 2nd of the two weighty things for the Muslims to hang on to (the first being the Quran)? why would it be made obligatory to send salaam on them in every daily prayers or else the prayers are void? Ponder.

[righteous]

@diwana

One thing is what I understand.

Kinship and being relative of powerful and knowledgeable person does not and should not mean anything else in terms of being good or bad.

Each individual in Islam is responsible of his/her action.

Just as we cannot guarantee someone to be saved from Allah's wrath, we just can never tell someone being pious just because this person is related to prophet's SAW lineage or is a 'syed'.

Kinship is a necessary condition for the leadership position but not a sufficient condition. You need to be righteous as well to be chosen by God. Let me repeat you have to be a kin of the Prophet (Al-e-Mohammad SAW)

[Das_Reich]

@Pagluu

There are numerous proofs present from the Quran in this thread. Please pick one and point out why you fail to see it as a proof.

[2:111] Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

Could you show us a Hadith where the Prophet (saww) is stating that all the Bani Hashim are his Ahlul Bayt, for whom the verse of purification was decended?

What are your views about the Hadiths in Saha Sitta where its clearly stated that the verse of Tatheer (in praise of Ahlul Bayt (as)) is for Panjatan Paak exclusively?

And since your area of speciality seems to be Islamic history, did Bani Hashim and Aulad e Aqeel (may Allah bless him) considered themselves equal to the Panjatan Paak since you consider them all part of the Ahlul Bayt (as)? Thanks

none of the hadith prove that ahlulbayt are panjatan alone , furthermore u r confusing the status of panjatan with that of ahlulbayt.
And there is no shortage of hadith in sunni books highliting the status of ali , his sons thru fatima over all others.And ofcourse aqeel was not equal to ali, even jafar who was a earliest believer and deputy of prophet in ethiopia was not equal to ali.

for last part read waqat siffin when ali replies to muawiyah about services of ahlulbayt he mentions hamza , obaidah , jafar and zayd as martyrs.
furthermore the hadith in sahih muslim / bukhari in which zayd b arqam clarifies that ahlulbayt are familes of jafar , aqeel and abbass as well.
and ibn abbass's long held views on khums reported in every history of that time.
read carefully
no one is saying that ALL members of Ahlulbayt are at equal level.

e.g whats the comparison between aqeel a late convert and with a sluggish and dull nature and ibn abbas the warrior and outstanding scholar of his time ? even though both are same family

[Ma_Mooli]

@diwana

One thing is what I understand.

Kinship and being relative of powerful and knowledgeable person does not and should not mean anything else in terms of being good or bad.

Each individual in Islam is responsible of his/her action.

Just as we cannot guarantee someone to be saved from Allah's wrath, we just can never tell someone being pious just because this person is related to prophet's SAW lineage or is a 'syed'.

Interesting then that you think the Ahlul Bayt have no significance Islam. I guess its your words against the Prophet (saw)...hmmm now thats a tough one.

Secondly, do you know on which basis Abu Bkar became caliph? His sole argument was that being quraish, He was the closest to the Prophet (saw). This was was the only argument that browbeat the leadership vying ansars in to submission and pledging allegience to him, (regardless of the fact the the Prophet (saw) funeral was still taking place, and majority of people were not present.)

On hearing this argument, caliph Abu bakers father scorned the reason for his son being chosen for khilafa, saying that if age and kinship is the basis his son became the caliph, then he is more qualified than the son.

So if kinship of being qureish was ok for caliph Abu Baker, on what basis was it rejected for Imam Ali (As)? How conveniently they forgot ghadeer e kum, where caliph Umar was the first person to congratulate Imam ALi (as) on being the maula(leader) of the ummah...!!!

[Ma_Mooli]

nobody can deny the stature of hazrat ali as a sahabi as he was part of ashra mubashara. but there are few others who were most experienced, clsoe to prophet and judicious than hazrat ali (RA) keeping in view the fact that hazrat ali was relatively very young at the time of death of hazrat muhmmad. and prophet did not nominate neone for succession. (only shia has this point of view of succession........)

Thats where your'e misinformed. The Prophets (saw) did appoint a successor and many sunni hadith acknlowedge that, its another story that those hadith are misinterpreted inorder to align with existing views. Any neutral observer would see it as clear as daylight.

You know to accuse the Prophet of not having the forsightness/intelligence to see that the ummah needs a leader after him, whereas the sahabas understood all this, is insulting to say the least. How can you demean the Prophet (saw) as such? Not only his is successor sidelined/rejected, but now his intelligence is in question..what gives?

Secondly it is interesting you admit Imam Ali (as) as ashara mubasahara, aas during caliphs muwaiya times and onwards, it was the norm to curse Imam ALi during the friday khutbas from the mimber of the Prophet (saw), the propaganda was so strong at that time, people were surprised to hear he used to pray/fast.

When his Imam Hassan became the caliph, he was physcially attacked because people thought he(as) would betray them. That was the mental state of the ummah, so you can understand how easy it was for the likes of yazid to isolate, demonise and order the killing of Imam Hussain (as). His work had been done for him way before became king/caliph.

[QUOTE]

hazrat abdul rehman bi auf (ra) reply to hazrat ali is worth considering in which he said:

( my dear nephew! a day will come when u will become caliph but currently u r novice in worldly affairs (government administration ) and there are many ppl available that are more experienced than u.

(from hussein heckal book an egyptian historian )

[/QUOTE]

And who was Abul rehman bin auf in comaprison to Imam Ali (As)? Do you know caliph Umar often used to say 'if it wasnt for ALi, Umar would have persihed?' and he regularly sought Imam ALi (As) advise on things, and oftenImam (As) correct him many wrong rulings he had made. SO on what basis was Abdul rahman making these remarks?

In the Prophet (saw) eyes, noone was more able than Imam Ali (As), if you see his letters and sermons in Nahjulabalagha advising on how to rule, so will see the true esense of Islam. The rebellion were the turmoil he inherited from the earlier caliphs. Read up history to find out the details.

[QUOTE]

chaos remain there untill the hazrat hasan did baith of hazrat muavia and things settled down and muslim got united again.

[/QUOTE]

If you read up, history always protray Hazrat mauwiyah as one of the biggest sources of the divison in muslim ummah. In case you forgot he waged a war against Imam Ali (As), the caliph of the time!! What it is your excuse for that? would you justify it if anyone waged war on Hazrat Abu BAkr, Umar, Uthman? No, i didnt think so.

And fgs, ofcourse things settled down when mauwiyah got what he wanted ie. khilafa. How twisted you're version of history is!

[QUOTE]

i think u have given a very wrong example here. we are talking about the ahle bait and not prophethood . always like to like case is compared.

[/QUOTE]

That is an example, you're supposed to apply it. Prophet (saw) is part of the AHlulbayt, he was under that cloak when the ayah tathir was revealed.

[quote]
i think the real problem is that few shia scholars have tendecy of " cherry picking". whenever they see sth in praise of hazrat ali and his family in bukhari and shah sitta they take it and incase of ahadith in favours of othere sahaba they start saying that bukhari is not authentic.

as a muslim i think we shud give respect to all sahabas as the quran and hadith demands.
[/quote]

We never said sahih bukhari is wholly authentic, we prove our arguments through you're books. If you read our books, you would see no arguemnt on who the ahlulbayt/successor are, its all pretty clear from our end.

Our definitions of shabas vary, but that obviously requires a seperate thread.

[Pagluu]

@Das_Reich

none of the hadith prove that ahlulbayt are panjatan alone , furthermore u r confusing the status of panjatan with that of ahlulbayt. And there is no shortage of hadith in sunni books highliting the status of ali , his sons thru fatima over all others.And ofcourse aqeel was not equal to ali, even jafar who was a earliest believer and deputy of prophet in ethiopia was not equal to ali.

for last part read waqat siffin when ali replies to muawiyah about services of ahlulbayt he mentions hamza , obaidah , jafar and zayd as martyrs. furthermore the hadith in sahih muslim / bukhari in which zayd b arqam clarifies that ahlulbayt are familes of jafar , aqeel and abbass as well. and ibn abbass's long held views on khums reported in every history of that time. read carefully no one is saying that ALL members of Ahlulbayt are at equal level.

e.g whats the comparison between aqeel a late convert and with a sluggish and dull nature and ibn abbas the warrior and outstanding scholar of his time ? even though both are same family

Panjatan = the five who were under the cloak when the verse of purification descended. If, according to you, no hadith mentions these 5 as the Ahlul Bayt (as), then I'd request you to open Sahi Muslim and Tirmidhi, and look under the chapter 'Virtues of Ahlul Bayt' and let me know what hadiths you find there.

Alhumdolillah, I am not confused about who the Ahlul Bayt (as) are, but the Ahl-e-Sunnat books sure are. While many of them state that the Ahlul Bayt (as) are the ones for whom the verse of purification descended, some go on to include the wives, and a few are far more generous with the list of people they see as the Ahlul Bayt (as). Ironically, the subject is the "Ahlul Bayt (as) of our Prophet Mohammad (saww)", yet it seems that everybody else, but the Prophet (saww), has an opinion about who HIS (saww) Ahlul Bayt (as) should be!

Your confusion is due to inability to understand the core issue, i.e. the difference between the general family and apostolic family as explained in this thread. This thread makes Shia position very clear and if the original poster wishes to ask any more questions then he is welcome again. Masalam.

[Ibn_Sadique]

@""righteous""

Can I, or any shia deny that the wives were not part of the family?** Absolutely not.
**However, it is the term Ahlul Bayt in the special chosen context of infallibility that we say that only Ali, Bibi Fatimah, Hasan and Husain are part of Ahlul Bayt.

@""Pagluu""

^ Brother DD, you have not understood the Shia point of view. Nobody is arguing that Wives aren’t part of the family or “Ahl Bayt”. Both terms are general and certainly do include the wives or anybody who lives under the same roof as the Sahib e Khaana.

I am glad that is a slight but very significant shift here – at least you guys have agreed that the wives were part of Prophet’s family but not among the ‘special ones’ or for a better words the ‘Chosen Ones’.

[quote=““Pagluu””]

@""righteous""

Brother, you are right but in the general meaning of the family - the Son, whether believer or not, is definitely part of the family. Hence I feel you are in agreement that the definition of the term Ahlul Bayt has a special contextual meaning.

**Pagluu **– You are just playing with words.

We have authentic hadith where the Prophet (saw) has used the very word, which you desperately trying to avoid, to address his blessed family( May Allah be pleased with them all) – namely Ahl Al-Bayt

The Prophet (saw) is best placed to know who is in his Ahl Al-Bayt

Narrated Anas:

*A banquet of bread and meat was held on the occasion of the marriage of the Prophet to Zainab bint Jahsh. I was sent to invite the people (to the banquet), and so the people started coming (in groups). They would eat and then leave. Another batch would come, eat and leave. So I kept on inviting the people till I found nobody to invite.

Then I said, “O Allah’s Prophet! I do not find anybody to invite.”

He (the Prophet) said, “Carry away the remaining food.” Then a batch of three persons stayed in the house chatting. The Prophet left and went towards the dwelling place of Aisha and said, “Peace and Allah’s Mercy be on you, Ya Ahlel Bayt (O the people of the house)!”

She replied, “Peace and the mercy of Allah be on you too. How did you find your wife? May Allah bless you.”

Then he went to the dwelling places of all his other wives and said to them the same as he said to Aisha and they said to him the same as Aisha had said to him.* Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 316

[Ibn_Sadique]

@righteous

Muslim - Book 001, Number 0141: * Zirr reported: 'Ali observed: By Him Who split up the seed and created something living, the Apostle (may peace and blessings be upon him) gave me a promise that no one but a believer would love me, and **none but a hypocrite would nurse grudge against me*. This is a hadith from one of the most authentic books of Hadith for Ahl-e-sunnat. I will leave my argument here to answer this point.

brother ** righteous **– Have you ever met any Sunni who doesn’t love Hz. Ali (ra)??!! [of course not to the point where you want him to be loved]

He is among the righteous Khaleefs and the ten given the title Ashrah Mubashrah. There are thousands of narrations to confirm his exalted station.

Read the quotation below from Nahjul Balagha:

*With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.

Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine.* - *Part taken from Sermon 126 Nahj-ul-Balagha *

Please let me know who is this ‘great majority of muslims’ he is referring to – Surely not the 12ers – as they are not the ‘great majority of muslims’!

You may claim that he is referring to the 12ers as the great majority!!

If so, tell since when did 12ers ever become 'the great majority of Muslims' - they never have been so.

And where are you to place the Sunnis - 'the great majority of Muslims'?

Are they not in the equation?

@Pagluu

If every act of the Ahlul Bayt (as) was not the Will of God then; why would Allah (swt) demand from the believers to love them unconditionally?

Why did the Prophet (saww) say that sending blessings upon me is not complete until they are included in the salwat? Why would Rasool Allah (saww) before departing this world, count them as the 2nd of the two weighty things for the Muslims to hang on to (the first being the Quran)? why would it be made obligatory to send salaam on them in every daily prayers or else the prayers are void? Ponder.

The blessings and salwat send to ‘Aale Mohammed’ are sent to all the ‘Aale Mohammed’ and that includes the blessed wives (raa)

Here we have an ayah where the blessed Prophet (saw) requests his followers to love his near and dear ones.

*Thalika allathee yubashshiru Allahu AAibadahu allatheena amanoo waAAamiloo alssalihati qul la asalukum AAalayhi ajran illa almawaddata fee alqurba waman yaqtarif hasanatan nazid lahu feeha husnan inna Allaha ghafoorun shakoorun

42:23 That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service). *

‘alqurba’ is a larger group and includes all that were near and dear to him – Surely includes wives, father in laws.

Do you really follow the Quranic request of the Prophet (saw) and love all of his near of Kin!!

[Das_Reich]

Panjatan = the five who were under the cloak when the verse of purification descended. If, according to you, no hadith mentions these 5 as the Ahlul Bayt (as), then I'd request you to open Sahi Muslim and Tirmidhi, and look under the chapter 'Virtues of Ahlul Bayt' and let me know what hadiths you find there.

Alhumdolillah, I am not confused about who the Ahlul Bayt (as) are, but the Ahl-e-Sunnat books sure are. While many of them state that the Ahlul Bayt (as) are the ones for whom the verse of purification descended, some go on to include the wives, and a few are far more generous with the list of people they see as the Ahlul Bayt (as). Ironically, the subject is the "Ahlul Bayt (as) of our Prophet Mohammad (saww)", yet it seems that everybody else, but the Prophet (saww), has an opinion about who HIS (saww) Ahlul Bayt (as) should be!

Your confusion is due to inability to understand the core issue, i.e. the difference between the general family and apostolic family as explained in this thread. This thread makes Shia position very clear and if the original poster wishes to ask any more questions then he is welcome again. Masalam.

I understand the core issue very well my dear

In earliest sources ahlulbayt are always banu abdul muttalib , the blood relations of Prophet.
But later as Alid and Abbassid factions fell apart after the successful revolution against ummayyads each claimed itself to be ahlulbayt alone. And since 12er school is concerned with imams of Alid descent they only include the Five as ahlulbayt and no one else.
You are not confused as u selectively read history take what u like and leave the rest.Quite an easy position to take i must say !

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[QUOTE]
The Prophets (saw) did appoint a successor and many sunni hadith acknlowedge that, its another story that those hadith are misinterpreted inorder to align with existing views. Any neutral observer would see it as clear as daylight.

[/QUOTE]

which neutral observers pray tell us ?

12er and sunnis will obviously be bias so plz tell us which "neutral" observer has agreed with your version of history ?
even the orientalists who have done the most research on shiaism and its history dont believe in specific designation of successor divine or prophetic

all agree that it was something that was not decided in Prophet's lifetime.

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[QUOTE]
alqurba’ is a larger group and includes all that were near and dear to him – Surely includes wives, father in laws.

Do you really follow the Quranic request of the Prophet (saw) and love all of his near of Kin!!
[/QUOTE]

and surely brothers, nephews , uncles as well. i.e blood relations.
They are primarily Ahlulbayt , everyone else comes afterwards and they are the ones on whom alms is forbidden.

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[QUOTE]

We never said sahih bukhari is wholly authentic, we prove our arguments through you're books. If you read our books, you would see no arguemnt on who the ahlulbayt/successor are, its all pretty clear from our end.

[/QUOTE]

how do u decide which part of sunni hadith are authentic ? is it based on narraters or whatever fits ur agenda ?

[chacha_Ghalib]

@Ma_Mooli

Finally to answer your question; in the shia view the Prophet (saw) only had one biological daughter, Bibi Fatima Zahra (as).

what?

is this true? can other shias confirm this? I was not aware of this before reading this post.

if it is true, what is your opinion of the other children of the Holy Prophet (saw)?

p.s. about the successor of the Holy Prophet (saw), why not follow the sunnah of Hazrat Ali (ra) himself? When he himself obeyed Hazrat Abu bakr (ra) then what is the point of arguing about who the successor was suppose to be?

[Pagluu]

I understand the core issue very well my dear

In earliest sources ahlulbayt are always banu abdul muttalib , the blood relations of Prophet. But later as Alid and Abbassid factions fell apart after the successful revolution against ummayyads each claimed itself to be ahlulbayt alone. And since 12er school is concerned with imams of Alid descent they only include the Five as ahlulbayt and no one else. You are not confused as u selectively read history take what u like and leave the rest.Quite an easy position to take i must say !

may be then Imam Muslim and Tirmidhi didn't know the "earliest sources" you are talking about.

You my friend are quite independent in your thinking. Its a waste of time until you prove something from the Holy Quran or a clear Hadith.