what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[righteous]

@Ibn_Sadique

righteous, you haven’t addressed the main issue raised by me.

Allah (swt) has used the word “our women” and this clearly to any sane fair-minded person can only mean that there are more than one ‘woman’.

Do you dispute this?

If you answer this we can move on.

Our Women = Bibi Fatimah plus others would make more sense.

To me this the most important point the rest are secondary issues.

Allah (swt) has stated “OUR WOMEN” and that means more that one!!

I am sorry you have got me wrong. Believe me it was not my intention nor was I accusing of using any Christian/Jewish tricks.

All I was trying convey the message was that:

If it is one than it should be only one and If the word is in plural then it cannot mean only one but more than one.

My apologies if you understood me otherwise.

My apologies brother. I am so used to being attacked, it was just a pure reflex.

I understand your question and my limited knowledge and reasoning comprehends it to be a clear sign that the option was of plural and the Prophet (SAW) took all in twos except the women to clearly show that there is only one who will be considered to be part of the Ahlul Bayt.

As MaMooli pointed out the wives are part of the family but not as Ahlul Bayt as mentioned in quran, where Allah chooses the select few from the lineage to be part of the select group.

[dhanya_podena]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

I have read about the debate of AhlulBait, and IMHO, its all about establishing a special status of "infallibility". Other than that i do not see any point.

I mean, does Allah 'exclude' people from family of Prophet pbuh, what every other person will consider his family?

Will Prophet pbuh, 'expel' certain people from his family?

Why would Prophet pbuh not consider his wife Khadija ra, who was with him in all the hardships. Why would Prophet pbuh exclude his own parents from being his family?

[Ibn_Sadique]

@Ma_Mooli

That wasnt a quote, but I inserted one later on once I found the hadith. Do you have a different version of it? if so please post it.

ps. I replied via my profile msg??

Narrated in the authority of Umar Ibn Abi Salama, the son of Umm Salama (another wife of Prophet), which is as follows:

The verse "Verily Allah intends to ... (33:33)" was revealed to the Prophet (PBUH&HF) in the house of Umm Salama. Upon that, the Prophet gathered Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Husain, and covered them with a cloak, and he also covered Ali who was behind him. Then the Prophet said: "O' Allah! These are the Members of my House (Ahlul-Bayt). Keep them away from every impurity and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama (the wife of Prophet) asked: "Am I also included among them O Apostle of Allah?" the Prophet replied: **"You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." **Sahih al-Tirmidhi

You can see that the Prophet (saw) did not answer in negative.

By saying "You remain in your position and you are toward a good ending." the Prophet (saw) is confirming that as his wife (that is her position in relation to the Prophet (saw), she is including them and is toward good ending.

I am glad you have amended your post.

[Ibn_Sadique]

My apologies brother. I am so used to being attacked, it was just a pure reflex. I understand your question and my limited knowledge and reasoning comprehends it to be a clear sign that the option was of plural and the Prophet (SAW) took all in twos except the women to clearly show that there is only one who will be considered to be part of the Ahlul Bayt. As MaMooli pointed out the wives are part of the family but not as Ahlul Bayt as mentioned in quran, where Allah chooses the select few from the lineage to be part of the select group.

No need to apologise brother.

The way I see it is that when Allah (swt) says something in plural it stays plural.

So when the word “Our Women” is used it can only imply Prophet (saw)’s wives and daughters.

I am not going second guess why Prophet (saw) did not take his wives along but only thing that comes to my mind is Prophet (saw)’s geerah (I think it translates as man’s jealousy concerning his wife/wives.)

As MaMooli pointed out the wives are part of the family but not as Ahlul Bayt as mentioned in quran, where Allah chooses the select few from the lineage to be part of the select group.

brother righteous – you have conceded that wives are part of the family but the word the Ahlul Bayt is in Arabic meaning ‘people of house’ and can only mean man's family.

Brother, there is another incidence in Quran where Allah (swt) has addressed the wife of a Prophet as Ahlul Bayt [people of the house]

Qalat ya waylata aalidu waana AAajoozun wahatha baAAlee shaykhan inna hatha lashayon AAajeebun

11:72 She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"

Qaloo ataAAjabeena min amri Allahi rahmatu Allahi wabarakatuhu AAalaykum ahla albayti innahu hameedun majeedun

11:73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"

And there are authentic hadith where the Prophet (saw) addresses his wives as ahlul bayti.

[righteous]

No need to apologise brother.

The way I see it is that when Allah (swt) says something in plural it stays plural.

So when the word “Our Women” is used it can only imply Prophet (saw)’s wives and daughters.

I am not going second guess why Prophet (saw) did not take his wives along but only thing that comes to my mind is Prophet (saw)’s geerah (I think it translates as man’s jealousy concerning his wife/wives.)

brother righteous – you have conceded that wives are part of the family but the word the Ahlul Bayt is in Arabic meaning ‘people of house’ and can only mean man's family.

Brother, there is another incidence in Quran where Allah (swt) has addressed the wife of a Prophet as Ahlul Bayt [people of the house]

Qalat ya waylata aalidu waana AAajoozun wahatha baAAlee shaykhan inna hatha lashayon AAajeebun

11:72 She said: "Alas for me! shall I bear a child, seeing I am an old woman, and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"

Qaloo ataAAjabeena min amri Allahi rahmatu Allahi wabarakatuhu AAalaykum ahla albayti innahu hameedun majeedun

11:73 They said: "Dost thou wonder at Allah's decree? The grace of Allah and His blessings on you, o ye people of the house! for He is indeed worthy of all praise, full of all glory!"

And there are authentic hadith where the Prophet (saw) addresses his wives as ahlul bayti.

You are absolutely right. Bibi Sara was the mother of many Prophets and her lineage included Jesus (AS) as well as our beloved Prophet (SAW).

[11:45]
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said:
"O my Lord! surely my son is of my family!
and Thy promise is true,
and Thou art the justest of Judges!"

Allah's answer is:

[11:46]
He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family:
For his conduct is unrighteous.
So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge!
I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!"

Brother answer me this question, If a son who is from the bloodline can be cast out of the Ahlul Bayt then without the clear example you cannot assume the wives are part of Ahlul Bayt in case of Prophet (SAW).

Further, the prophet (SAW) did divorce some of his wives and a couple were severly reprimanded by Allah in Quran.

• 066.004 *
  YUSUFALI: If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up.

• 066.005 *
  YUSUFALI: It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange consorts better than you,- who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast,- previously married or virgins.

This example is also set out regarding wives of other Prophets.

• 066.010 * YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"

[Pagluu]

@Ibn_Sadique

righteous, you haven’t addressed the main issue raised by me.

Allah (swt) has used the word “our women” and this clearly to any sane fair-minded person can only mean that there are more than one ‘woman’.

Do you dispute this?

If you answer this we can move on.

Our Women = Bibi Fatimah plus others would make more sense.

To me this the most important point the rest are secondary issues.

Allah (swt) has stated “OUR WOMEN” and that means more that one!!

....

Its great to see, after a long time, a thread on GS where there is positive air of discussion and that too on something very rarely discussed here, i.e. the science of the Quran Majeed.

Brother, Ibn Sadique, Quran uses, more often than not, plural words for singular. This verse says "our women" while it was only one lady, i.e., Fatimah (a.s.), who was brought by the Prophet (saww) for Mubahila with the Christians of Najran- yet the Prophet (saww) did fully comply with the divine command.

Brother Armughal- It is preposterous to apply the principles of Urdu/Punjabi on the Arabic language, particularly the language of the Holy Quran ( I know this since I have close affiliation with both the languages). Quranic Arabic is so specialized that even a native Arab speaker is lost when reading the Quran. Moreover, all the narrators of these traditions regarding Ahlul Bayt (as) were the companions of the Prophet (saww) and their disciples who were with them in that very era. If such usage was not allowed in the speech and people were not familiar with such expressions, they would not have accepted these narrations, rather they would have been the first to put forward this objection; but none of them is on record to speak against it on this ground.

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

This discussion has moved from the verse of Tatheer to the verse of Mubahila. However, along with excellent points by Brother Mansab, brother Surdar Asif made a critical point about the verse of Tatheer that requires thinking.

[Maverick_27]

@Ma_Mooli

No, by no means was it the only yardstick, they are so many events, so many traditons that point out the AHlul Bayt (as) and the succession of Imam ALi (As) that one would have to be blind from innermost not to see or understand.

nobody can deny the stature of hazrat ali as a sahabi as he was part of ashra mubashara. but there are few others who were most experienced, clsoe to prophet and judicious than hazrat ali (RA) keeping in view the fact that hazrat ali was relatively very young at the time of death of hazrat muhmmad. and prophet did not nominate neone for succession.
(only shia has this point of view of succession........)

hazrat abdul rehman bi auf (ra) reply to hazrat ali is worth considering in which he said:

( my dear nephew! a day will come when u will become caliph but currently u r novice in worldly affairs (government administration ) and there are many ppl available that are more experienced than u.

(from hussein heckal book an egyptian historian )

his prediction became true and eventually we see hazrat ali became caliph . beside we see that his tenure was not an ideal period in the islamic history filled with so many controversaries and war between different group of muslims. administration was not that gud (by no mean i want to say that hazrat ali was responsible for all this however he cuold not set the things right as hazrat abu bakar did when majority of the arab bacame prosteliyzed after the death of prophet but abu bakar succeed in setting the thing rights). chaos remain there untill the hazrat hasan did baith of hazrat muavia and things settled down and muslim got united again.

@Ma_Mooli

Let me ask you why Hazrat Muhammad was chosen for Prophethood and not his father etc? why was He (saw) chosen and not the first caliph Abu Bakr? You could go on forever. Hope you get the point how futile your question is.

i think u have given a very wrong example here. we are talking about the ahle bait and not prophethood . always like to like case is compared.

i think the real problem is that few shia scholars have tendecy of " cherry picking". whenever they see sth in praise of hazrat ali and his family in bukhari and shah sitta they take it and incase of ahadith in favours of othere sahaba they start saying that bukhari is not authentic.

as a muslim i think we shud give respect to all sahabas as the quran and hadith demands.

[Pagluu]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Maverick_27 bhai sahab, Itnay saray logon nay aap kay sawal ka jawab tehreer kiya magar aap aik maslay say dosray par chalang laga rahay hein- aur woh bhee bohat hi zyada satahi baatoun say kaam letay howay. aap nay kuch parha aur parh kar seekhnay ki bhi koshih ki ya nahee?

If you wish to discuss the succession issue of Ameer ul Momineen, Ali Ibn Abi Talib (as) then without going into details of your post, I would beg you to answer a simple question for me. Just tell me the Shaan e Nazool of the following verses of the Sura Al Maeda:

[5:67] O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

[5:3] .....This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion....

[righteous]

nobody can deny the stature of hazrat ali as a sahabi as he was part of ashra mubashara. but there are few others who were most experienced, clsoe to prophet and judicious than hazrat ali (RA) keeping in view the fact that hazrat ali was relatively very young at the time of death of hazrat muhmmad. and prophet did not nominate neone for succession. (only shia has this point of view of succession........)

hazrat abdul rehman bi auf (ra) reply to hazrat ali is worth considering in which he said:

( my dear nephew! a day will come when u will become caliph but currently u r novice in worldly affairs (government administration ) and there are many ppl available that are more experienced than u.

(from hussein heckal book an egyptian historian )

his prediction became true and eventually we see hazrat ali became caliph . beside we see that his tenure was not an ideal period in the islamic history filled with so many controversaries and war between different group of muslims. administration was not that gud (by no mean i want to say that hazrat ali was responsible for all this however he cuold not set the things right as hazrat abu bakar did when majority of the arab bacame prosteliyzed after the death of prophet but abu bakar succeed in setting the thing rights). chaos remain there untill the hazrat hasan did baith of hazrat muavia and things settled down and muslim got united again.

i think u have given a very wrong example here. we are talking about the ahle bait and not prophethood . always like to like case is compared.

i think the real problem is that few shia scholars have tendecy of " cherry picking". whenever they see sth in praise of hazrat ali and his family in bukhari and shah sitta they take it and incase of ahadith in favours of othere sahaba they start saying that bukhari is not authentic.

as a muslim i think we shud give respect to all sahabas as the quran and hadith demands.

This is so superficial and typical sunni approach of closing your eyes to the reality.

Lets get some facts straight.

All sahabas were not nice.
Imam Hasan did an agreement with Mauvia and not a bayt.
The reason Ali had so many difficulties is because the wrong kind of people attained power and wealth in the time of first three specially third
And nobody was closer to the Prophet (SAW) then Ali.

If you want to debate on these facts then open another thread and continue

[Maverick_27]

Maverick_27 bhai sahab, Itnay saray logon nay aap kay sawal ka jawab tehreer kiya magar aap aik maslay s*ay dosray par chalang laga rahay hein-* aur woh bhee bohat hi zyada satahi baatoun say kaam letay howay.

i think u did not read the post to which i was replying ...........

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

[QUOTE]
his prediction became true and eventually we see hazrat ali became caliph . beside we see that his tenure was not an ideal period in the islamic history filled with so many controversaries and war between different group of muslims
[/QUOTE]

the greed of quraish was responsible for those wars and they have all been predicted by Prophet so they are all part of deen.

[QUOTE]

. administration was not that gud (by no mean i want to say that hazrat ali was responsible for all this however he cuold not set the things right as hazrat abu bakar did when majority of the arab bacame prosteliyzed after the death of prophet but abu bakar succeed in setting the thing rights).

[/QUOTE]

who said majority of arabs left islam ?, only a few tribes and they contaoined some minor sahaba who apostasized.It was outstanding achievement of abu bakr but the scale of conflict is different
in ali's time all of syria and good part of makkah revolted against him that was a bigger deal than riddah just compare size of armies.
roughly 80 to 90 thousand soldiers on each side according to most accounts.
Also look at the number of sahaba who died between 10 to 36 AH ( ali's time) the list is huge.
Also in uthman's time all the good work of abu bakr and umar's time had been undone and there was chaos in the empire which ali inherited.
some drawbacks of ali was that he did not listen to some of his good advisors from kufa and relied on his family too much who betrayed him like abdullah b jafar.Secondly ali was too harsh with some of his iraqi supporters at times.This at times made them hesitant to follow ali.

[QUOTE]
chaos remain there untill the hazrat hasan did baith of hazrat muavia and things settled down and muslim got united again.
[/QUOTE]

muslim never united since the time of uthman,
and if like mauvia so much and criticize ali so much why dont u accept muawiyah as ur rightly guided caliph.
what muawiyah did set the stage for the second fitna killing of hussain b ali, Harra and revolt of ibn zubair.

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

ma maooli who is a syed today is a loaded question. Few can trace their linage to the Prophet and if u think zakat is haram on you then by all means believe in that.

Regarding sources its a more complicated situation that what u have painted ( and u shud know this considering you are professionally qualifed to comment on this).
If 12er aqeedah was so crytal clear if would go through so many stages before it was finally formalized.

[afishcurry]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

People from ahel-e-bayat faced targeted killing by ummayad dynasty khalifs with exception of Umar II. Even abusing Ali was made part of prayer till Umar II intervened . Why open this negative can of worms.. That was dark period ..

Even abdullah shah Ghazi of Karachi was from ahel-e-bayat and no points for guessing who killed him.. ironically he was being given safe haven and patronage by a sindhi hindu king from the wrath of ummayad khalifs

[Das_Reich]

Even abdullah shah Ghazi of Karachi was from ahel-e-bayat and no points for guessing who killed him.. ironically he was being given safe haven and patronage by a sindhi hindu king from the wrath of ummayad khalifs

huh ? I dont know how much of that is true or fable.Ummayyad involvement in sindh predates abdullah ghazi conisderably so i doubt if its true.

however its established that Hukaym b jabalah and Sayfi b Fasayl Shaybani important supporters of ali were amongst the first raiders of sindh in uthman's time.And they fought against hindu rajas there so to think that an Alid wud be welcome there is rather surprising.

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Before this becomes a Melee let me ask 12er members to present concisely their proof that panjatan are Ahlulbayt ONLY and to the exclusion of wives and other banu hashim

one hadith from mustadrak i saw before, plz point out others

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

.

[righteous]

Before this becomes a Melee let me ask 12er members to present concisely their proof that panjatan are Ahlulbayt ONLY and to the exclusion of wives and other banu hashim

one hadith from mustadrak i saw before, plz point out others

Das Reich, my most confused brother. If you think Shia's are revisionist then you havent studied sunni Islam with objectivity. It is extremely revisionist, but that is a separate debate.

Even Sons and wives are excluded from Ahlul Bayt since this is a divinely ordained status.

Let me past some ayat from Quran again.

SON excluded

[11:45]
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said:
"O my Lord! surely my son is of my family!
and Thy promise is true,
and Thou art the justest of Judges!"

Allah's answer is:

[11:46]
He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family:
For his conduct is unrighteous.
So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge!
I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!"

Wives

066.010 *
**YUSUFALI:* Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"

[Das_Reich]

Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

righteous on what basis do u call me "most confused" pray tell me ? i was confused before regarding sectarian debates but Alhamdulliah due to correct guidence of some shaykhs have resolved that issue now.

revisionism is not specific to only one sect alone ( several debates amongst sunnis can be called revisionits too) but revisionism in the fundamentals is specific to 12ers.

i have seen all the ayats u posted and ur buddies have posted nothing new in your arguments here.No these ayats do not prove that panjatan alone are ahlulbayt , nor do they prove that they are infalliable.

[Pagluu]

Before this becomes a Melee let me ask 12er members to present concisely their proof that panjatan are Ahlulbayt ONLY and to the exclusion of wives and other banu hashim

one hadith from mustadrak i saw before, plz point out others

There are numerous proofs present from the Quran in this thread. Please pick one and point out why you fail to see it as a proof.

[2:111] Say: Bring your proof if you are truthful.

Could you show us a Hadith where the Prophet (saww) is stating that all the Bani Hashim are his Ahlul Bayt, for whom the verse of purification was decended?

What are your views about the Hadiths in Saha Sitta where its clearly stated that the verse of Tatheer (in praise of Ahlul Bayt (as)) is for Panjatan Paak exclusively?

And since your area of speciality seems to be Islamic history, did Bani Hashim and Aulad e Aqeel (may Allah bless him) considered themselves equal to the Panjatan Paak since you consider them all part of the Ahlul Bayt (as)?
Thanks