what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

bro Ibn Sadique- thanks for your reply. Though unfortunately you have copied and pasted most of the stuff thats been answered here before like the sermon of Imam Ali (as) (search of the archives can verify this). You seem to save all this material for a later date, only to unleash it on somebody else who in return then waste their time again in answering it.

Anyway, are you sure this time that Al Qurba includes all the relatives of the Prophet (saww)? my 2nd question is, who do you think includes Aal e Ibrahim (as) that you include in the salam/salawat?

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You can refer to the following Shia site – It confirms that Hz. Fatimah (ra) had 3 other sisters (biological) – Parents being Prophet (saw) and Lady Khadija (ra).

A Glance at the Life of the Holy Prophet of Islam

Khadija, peace be upon her, was the first woman who believed in the Prophet’s divine prophecy. She put all her wealth at his disposal to propagate and promote Islam. [39] Six children were born of his marriage: two sons named Qasim and Tahir who passed away as infants in Makkah and four daughers named Ruqiyah, Zaynab, Umm Kulsum, and Fatima, who was the most prominent and honoured of them all. [40]

Fatima ['a] The Gracious

The blessed wedding took place in the best possible way, the Messenger moved in with Lady Khadija who felt that she was going through the happiest period of her life, because she had reached her best wishes and sweetest dreams.
Khadija gave birth to several children of whom only four daughters survived: Zainab, Umme Kulthum, Ruqiya, and Fatima-Zahra who was the youngest and most exalted of them all.

Timepass - March 2014
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My dear brother** Pagluu **You have adopted the well trodden path – when there is no answer – attack the person.

Yes, we have discussed and thrashed this topic again and again. This topic has been brought up again.

Of course the facts are going to be repeated again, ain’t that so?

Yes all the good stuff should be left for the last.

Ok let’s see you answer the following:

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Please show me where the Prophet (saw) made an exception; if he didn’t, why should I?

42:23 That is (the Bounty) whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Ready to appreciate (service).

All those followed the path of Hz. Ibrahim (as) are included in salaam/salawaat.

Wht r u doing ?
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Respected brother** Das Reich **You responded to my post.

My saying:

It was quite deliberate that I mentioned wives and father in laws.

Historically Shia have inherent problem with Hz.Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar,(both father in laws) Lady Ayeisha and Lady Hafsa (both wives) [May Allah be pleased with all].

No Shia worth his salt will ever agree to include Lady Ayeisha and Lady Hafsa [May Allah be pleased with both] in Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet (saw).

Similarly do think Shia will agree to include Hz.Abu Bakr, Hz. Umar [May Allah be pleased with both] in the qurba of the Prophet (saw)!

In my humble opinion Lady Khadijah (ra) deserves to mentioned as the first person of Ahlul Bayt for her loyalty, unwavering financial and moral support to the Prophet (saw)
.
It surprises me why our Shia brothers/sisters ignore her keeping in mind that she is the mother of Lady Fatimah (ra)!!!

I am sure they want to but can’t because if they include her in the Ahlul Bayt of the Prophet (saw) as a wife, it opens the door to include Lady Ayeisha and Lady Hafsa [May Allah be pleased with both] and that’s the crux the whole matter of leaving the wives out of Ahlul Bayt!!!! [This is my opinion – I could be wrong].

There is textual evidence to include wives, Hz. Fatimah, Hz. Ali, Hz. Hassan and Hz. Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all) among the AhulBayt.

What authentic textual evidence do the Shias have to inclulde the other Imams (raa)?

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clear hadith is of zayd b arqam in sahih muslim

and who says tirmidhi and muslim were ignorant but they were hadith compilers not historians.

i am not independent I dont form an opinion on my own views but simply repeat the view of scholars.

Earliest sources i am talking about are of history not hadith like abu mikhanaf, ibn kalbi, ibn muzahim, waqidi
they were all historians ...now 12ers have a problem with them as well ?

*~Ek Haqeer Se Sawal ka, Aj Is Faqeer Ko Jawab Dy~*
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salam brother forgive my rough demenor, I descend from a family of country folk which in local language are called "paindoos" they are increadibly rude and hot tempered at times.

anyway to the point you raised, the present 12er stance on ahlulbayt will never agree to inclusion anyone except the 5 and the cause of that has to with intra-shia schisms as well as shia-sunni schisms.And the former I was trying to highlite as both 12ers and sunnis tend to forget about other ahlulbayt members the hariths, jafars, aqeels, abbas' etc.This is important as it throws a wrench at the concept of ahlulbayt = panjatan ONLY.

Imami shia or particularly 12er hostility towards abu bakr/umar and aisha/hafsa has little to do with their HISTORICAL role.Rather it is born out of a theological neccsaity , since when imamate became a central doctrine in what was now shiaism it had to explain the events preceeding the caliphate of ali.It did so by shifting blame squarely on the "2 idols of quraish" and their daughters.But 12ers do not reserve this contempt for these "bad " sahabas only.In 12er discourses there seem to be a general trend ( with some exceptions) to discredit sahaba as a whole e.g hadith "if abu dhar knew what was in heart of salman he would have killed him etc" .Again this is without regard to the historical role of these sahaba.As many of these sahaba are those who had very favorable relations with ali before and during his caliphate.

In imami views sahaba are not important as they fade in comparison to the superhuman imams.Even the ayat of Quran explicitly in favor of sahaba like that of awal-o-sabiqoon is intrepreted to mean ONLy ahlulbayt.Part of the reason for this disregard and degredation of sahaba is that generally for 12ers sahaba are not an important source of hadith.For 12ers sources of hadith are mostly pupils of their imams from 5 onwards and they goto great lengths to defend their memory, just like sunnis do to sahabas.

The born leader , the only hope
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And surprisingly/(or conveniently) offspring of Hz. Hassan (ra) are left out in the cold.

The Hi/Bye Thread
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Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

^ Right and thats a whole another discussion.

And its not because hasan made peace with muawiyah as is commonly thought.Rather the cause again is intra-shia schisms in formative period of imami shiaism

many other heroes of ahlulbayt are not remembered by 12ers at all

no majalis for zayd b ali (grandson of hussain himself) and nafs-e-zakiyah who were direct descendents of imams and took sword against oppressor like hussain b ali ? huh a deafning silence

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Funny times these. You catch a person with his hand in the cookie jar and he'd tell that you are getting 'personal'. :)

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Where do you want me to show you, bro? you refuse to believe your own sahi books, you wont believe in mine, and you seem least interested in the proofs from the Holy Quran. Aur kahan dekhna pasand farmaen gay aap? Ab aap ko aasman par likha dikhanay say hum rahay!

About the important point about Aal e Ibrahim (as), clarify just one little thing for me. Are you saying that all those who followed the path of Hz. Ibrahim (as) are his AAL?
Thanks

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yeah u r very right............... but still i wonder y many ppl still say "Ya Ali Madad" instead of saying Ya Allah Madad". asking help from a person who had to struggle throughout life and had to face so many odds.

may allah show us the right path.

that is what i m trying to say here that Hazrat Ali was not like a "super human being" as the most shia project (when we talk about the worldly affairs). like wise the earlier caliphs would had certain weakness and misjudements. as all were human being. and who are we to judge their actions when Allah parised all shahba in the quran.

so what we need to respect all of them. but what we see here that many shia scohlar praise Hazrat ali (RA) too much but use disgusting language about the first three caliphs.

and there is logic to give preference to Hazrat Ali (RA) on the first 3 caliph as he would not claimed himself.

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There you go again - you just proved me right. :)

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i second u 4 everything u have written,

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It was a general statement w/o your name in it. More of a case of Chor ki darhi mein tinka :)

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Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Brother Ibn Sadique- may be you missed this:

"About the important point about Aal e Ibrahim (as), clarify just one little thing for me. Are you saying that all those who followed the path of Hz. Ibrahim (as) are his AAL?
Thanks"

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Sorry your books don't count! - You say: "I seem least interested in the proofs from the Holy Quran." Quran? Would you be surprised if I said "Please I would love you to use the Quran but please don't use your slanted interpretation of any verse of the Quran you quote.

I have been quoting from Quran mostly to back up my statements.

That's what I had said.

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Pagluu You forgot to address the following:

Read the quotation below from Nahjul Balagha:

With regard to me, two categories of people will be ruined, namely he who loves me too much and the love takes him away from rightfulness, and he who hates me too much and the hatred takes him away from rightfulness. The best man with regard to me is he who is on the middle course. So be with him and be with the great majority (of Muslims) because Allah's hand (of protection) is on keeping unity. You should beware of division because the one isolated from the group is (a prey) to Satan just as the one isolated from the flock of sheep is (a prey) to the wolf.

Beware; whoever calls to this course, kill him, even though he may be under this headband of mine. - Part taken from Sermon 126 Nahj-ul-Balagha

Please let me know who is this ‘great majority of muslims’ he is referring to –

Surely not the 12ers – as they are not the ‘great majority of muslims’!

You may claim that he is referring to the 12ers as the great majority!!

If so, tell since when did 12ers ever become 'the great majority of Muslims' - they never have been so.

And where are you to place the Sunnis - 'the great majority of Muslims'?

Are they not in the equation?

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Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

^ So according to you
anybody who follows Ibrahim (as) is his AAL

Would you say this statement represents your view or would you like to amend it?

A thread 4 girlz only ....
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Re: what is the definition of Ahl ul Bayt

Brother Ibn Sadique- sermon 126, Nahjul Balagha has been answered right here before. A simple google search shall do . Lets try get this discussion somewhere first before trying to prove that Imam Ali (as) was with the Sunnis. Whats a Sunni anyway?