What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

[test01]

@hanibal

I think Ahmadies are bit pissed off from the truth i mentioned about Ahmadies…

In Ahmadi Believes:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan is Prophet…

Now in Islamic view point.. there is No Prophet After Prophet Mohammad (SAAW), and anyone who claims any prophet-hood is Liar and Imposter..

Please listen to this;

Note at 4:02 where he mentions Ibn arabi’s belief that a non law bearing prophet can still come. Please declare ibn arabi non-Muslim now and also all those scholars who do not consider Ibn Arab non-Muslim despite his denial of khatm-e-nabuwat.

Also note at 4:28 he refers to Ahmadis (without mentioning name) and says what more do they (Ahmadis) believe than what these Sufis believe?

So you think Ibn-Arabi, Qasim Nanutwi and other scholars are non-Muslim for denying finality of prophethood? Now don’t be a hypocrite, a simple yes or no answer will do.

[test01]

I think Ahmadies are bit pissed off from the truth i mentioned about Ahmadies...

I think you are pissed because your Mullahs have being lying all along about khatm-e-nabuwat when their own elders have denied khatm-e-nabuwat. What kind of a religion needs to lie to prove its truth?...a false one. Not to mention the brutality that your Mullahs commit against innocent.

[test01]

@stochastic

Actually there are two factions lahori Ahmedis which I dont think believe in the prophet hood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani & then there is another faction that consider him as a prophet…
The argument they often use that holy prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH represents the seal of Nabowat (Khatem-o-Nabieen) but Risalat does not ends at Our Holy Prophet…
The argument against this from the Muslim Ulema is that one cannot be a Rasool without being a Nabi, but can be a Nabi & not be a Rasool,(yes there is a difference b/w Rasool & Nabi while there were 124,000 Nabis only 313 amongst them were Rasools) therefore Khatim-e-Nabowat of Our holy prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH means that any one claiming to be a rasool after him is an imposter and a false prophet.

Check this link Seal of the prophets - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia before making any big claims regarding finality of prophethood (khatm-e-nabuwat). Get some knowledge about your own elders’ beliefs before discussing this issue.

[test01]

@stochastic

…therefore Khatim-e-Nabowat of Our holy prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH means that any one claiming to be a rasool after him is an imposter and a false prophet.

What do you think of the beliefs of Qasim Nanutwi who believes a prophet can come?

Is he Muslim or you?

[test01]

I appreciate that Ahmadis try their level best to defend their leader, but I haven't yet come across ONE single Ahmadi in my whole life, who truly follows the fashion (appearance) of their leaders. True and passionate followers also try to copy the appearance of their leaders i.e. beard and cap. Instead people of Tableeghi jamaat resemble more to Mirza sahab and the other khalifas because of keeping beard and topi. Amazing isn't it ?

Carry on.

I have met many more Sunnis than you have met Ahmadis and in several countries around the world and believe you me I have never met except ONE Sunni who I can call a truely good person, let alone a good Muslim. 99.99% are open liars or hypocrites, very prejudiced and vulgar, and many of them will resort to violence without hesitation. Now if you believe this is Sunnah then you are mistaken my friend. Why is Islam getting such a bad name all over the world these days? Because most of those calling themselves Muslim are Sunnis and not Ahmadis. Where Ahmadis are in number, Islam is getting a good name.

Sunni dominated countries are among the most corrupt in the world. I don't need to tell you what goes on in there; rapes, murders, abductions, flogging of women, bonded labour, persecution, few people getting richer and rest getting poor and lack of justice in general.

Even on this forum most arguments against Ahmadis are fabrications accompanied by vulgarity...I rest my case.

I sometimes have fun with Sunnis in asking them can they name a few Sunnis who can be considered good humans and they really have to think about it.. :)

[test01]

@stochastic

Another major difference b/w Qadianis & Muslims is the belief regarding Jesus, in religious Parlance it is called Rafa-e-Nazool-e-Massih
There is an Ijma amongst the muslim umma that Prophet Jesus did not Die on the cross but was taken to the heavens Alive by allah subhanawatalah…

Another blatant lie…please check below references to increase your knowledge on the subject as you obviously don’t know what you are talking about;

1. Ahadith

The Holy Prophet Muhammad said: “Had Moses or Jesus been alive, they would have had to follow me.” (Al-Yawaqit wal-Jawahir, p. 24; Fath al-Bayan, vol. 2, p. 246; Tafsir Ibn Kathir, under verse 81 of Al Imran)

“Adam is in the first heaven … Joseph is in the second heaven, and his cousins Yahya (John the Baptist) and Jesus are in the third heaven, and Idris is in the fourth heaven.” (Kanz al-Ummal, vol. vi, p. 120)

The above hadith is corroborated by another that tells us that in the Mi‘raj vision the Holy Prophet met the spirits of all the previous prophets (see Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Urdu ed. published in Karachi, vol. iii, p. 18).

**2. Early Views **

Hazrat Aishah, God be pleased with her, relates from the Holy Prophet Muhammad:
“Jesus, son of Mary, lived to the age of 120 years.”
(Hujaj al-Kirama, p. 428)

Hazrat Fatima, God be pleased with her, relates from the Holy Prophet:
“Jesus, son of Mary, lived to the age of 120 years.”
(Kanz-ul-Ummal, vol. vi, p. 120)

Imam Ibn Hazm, Amawi Zahiri Qurtabi, writes:
“Jesus, peace be upon him, was neither killed nor crucified, but God caused him to die and then raised him. The Almighty has said: ‘They did not kill him or crucify him’; and ‘I will cause thee to die and exalt thee’; and ‘I (Jesus) was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die Thou wert the Watcher over them’ and ‘Allah takes souls (yatawaffa) at the time of death’. Thus there are two kinds of wafat: sleep and death. Jesus in his words ‘When Thou didst cause me to die (falamma tawaffaita-ni)’ was not referring to sleep, but it is correct that by wafat he meant death.”
(Mahalli fil-Fiqh, p. 23)

3. Scholars

Abul Hasan Ali Hajwairi, popularly known as Data Ganj Bakhsh, writes:
“The Messenger of God said that, on the night of the Mi‘raj, he saw Adam, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, Jesus and Abraham, in the heavens. Assuredly it was their souls.”
(Kashf al-Mahjub, Chapter al-Kalam fir-ruh, p. 204).

• Hazrat Imam Hassan (ra) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbaas (ra) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Hazrat Jarood Bin Moallaa (ra) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Hazrat Imam Malik (r) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Allama Qummi (Shia Scholar) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Allama Jabbai (Shia Scholar) [Urdu + Arabic]
• Allama Ibn-e-Teemiya [Urdu + Arabic]
• Allama Ibn-e-Qayyem [Urdu + Arabic]
• Allama Ibn-e-Hayyaan and Allama Shokani [Urdu + Arabic]

Mahmud Shaltut, former Mufti of Egypt and ex-Rector of al-Azhar University, Cairo, writes:

i. “There is no authority in the Quran or the Sunna which can satisfy the heart upon the belief that Jesus was taken up to heaven with his body and that he is still alive there and that he shall descend therefrom to earth in the last days.”
(Al-Fatawa, published by Al-Idara al-‘Ama lil-Saqafat al-Islamiyya bil-Azhar, pp. 52-58)

The late Maulana Ubaidullah Sindhi (deobandi scholar) wrote:
“Mutawaffi-ka means mumitu-ka * and what generally prevails amongst the public about Jesus’ life is a Jewish and Sabean fable … It is not a concealed matter that the source of Islam is the Quran, and in it there is not even one verse proving explicitly that Jesus did not die, and that he is alive and shall come down. These are only the deductions and explanations of some people, and are not free from doubt and uncertainty. How, then, can it be taken to be a fundamental Islamic belief ?”
(Ilham al-Rahman fi-tafsir al-Quran, vol. ii, p. 49)

The late Maulana Abul Kalam Azad expresses his view as follows:
i. Upon receiving a letter which read:
“Dear Maulana: … these Mirza’i * people ascribe various views to you, and even give references from Wakil, Tazkira, etc., that you believe in Jesus’ death, and that you praised Mirza (Ghulam Ahmad) Sahib. Please write a conclusive book so that they dare not speak again. You should also state therein that it abrogates all your previous writings and views, thus leaving no scope for anyone to bring up old matters. — Inam-Ullah Khan, Baluchistan”
The Maulana replied:
"1. The death of Jesus is mentioned in the Quran itself.
“2. The question of praising or criticising the Mirza Sahib does not arise because:
‘If you are bad, you cannot be good,
He himself is bad who considers you to be bad’.”
(Malfuzat-i Azad, compiled by Muhammad Ajmal Khan, Maktaba Mahaul, Karachi, pp. 129, 130)

ii. “The belief (in Jesus being alive) by its nature is in every way a Christian doctrine which has appeared in an Islamic guise.”
(Naqsh Azad, p. 102, compiled by Maulana Ghulam Rasul Mahr)

Khwaja Hasan Nizami of Delhi wrote:
i. “Westerners believe that Jesus ascended to heaven. The Quran contradicts this Christian belief, for it contains the verse: inni mutawaffi-ka wa rafi‘u-ka ilayya, i.e., ‘O Jesus, I am about to cause you to die, and grant you exaltation and elevation unto Myself ’. This verse proves the death of Jesus. However, there is another verse saying: wa ma qatalu-hu wa ma salabu-hu wa lakin shubbiha la-hum, i.e., the Jews neither killed nor crucified Jesus, but they fell into doubt. This verse proves that Jesus was not put upon the cross, but died his own death. Rising to heaven does not mean that he went up to heaven but that his status in the estimation of God was raised.”
(Roznamcha, 16 November 1931, p. 15)

ii. “Some people say that Jesus is alive in the fourth heaven. It is proved from the Quran that Jesus was neither murdered nor crucified, but it is not proved that he ascended to heaven alive and is still living. On the contrary, the Quran says: ‘O Jesus, We shall cause you to die and then elevate your status in Our sight, or, raise you to Us’. The word wafat occurs first, and it means to die.”
(Newspaper Munadi, Delhi, 18 September 1936, p. 16)

In his famous book Tazkira, after discussing historical testimony relating to the death of Jesus, Allama Inayat-ullah Khan Mashriqi wrote:
“It is clearly proved today that the prophets were great experts in the laws of nature, and very knowledgeable in the sciences. To be so well-informed is not only true prophethood but also conveys the exemplary lesson that Jesus’ death too was according to the Divine law regarding which the Quran says: ‘You will not find any change in the law of God’ (Sura Al-Fatir).”
(Tazkira, vol. i, footnote, pp.16-17)

Jesus died a natural death - Javaid Ahmad Ghamdi

A few like Maududi are undecided on this issue.

Just because a billion illiterates who can not read their names let alone read or understand Quran believe in something does not mean Ijma. Also do not assume if a scholar has not expressed opinion he necessarily agrees with you.

Still believe there is Ijma on this belief?**

[test01]

Honestly, I would be somewhat reluctant to do that as It was not my intention to have a 'Munazra' on this topic. As had been mentioned by someone in an earlier post from a theological perspective its not an 'open problem' , the debate discussions & argumentation on this topic has already been completed more then 3 decades ago & from a doctrinal perspective there remains no ambiguity in this matter.

Another lie. Do you ever read anything on the subject that you come here and discuss? Please read the links I have posted, declare your own these scholars non-Muslim for agreeing with the Ahmadiyya view on Khatm-e-Nabuwat and Jesus dying a natural death and then come back for discussion.

[test01]

@hanibal

Ofcourse in eyes of Ahmadi i am a non-muslim / Kafir

What is your point? I am guessing you have not read Sunni fatwas regarding Shias and Sunnis blow Shias up too for good measure. Same with Deobandis calling brelvis kafir and killing them too. Also many Sunnis consider Agha-Khanis etc Kafir.

[test01]

@aramis09

Why did I Renounce Ahmadiyyah

Everyone is free to enter or leave Ahmadiyyat, unlike Sunnis who would love to kill an apostate given the chance.

[test01]

@hanibal

Ofcourse in eyes of Ahmadi i am a non-muslim / Kafir

Do they kill you or persecute you like you kill and persecute Ahmadis?

Ahmadi Children Being Held on Blasphemy Charges Without Evidence

PAKISTAN: Four children and one man have been arbitrarily arrested and charged with blasphemy at the request of Muslim radicals

Ahmadi Mosque attacked in Pakistan

PAKISTAN: Provincial government of Punjab is instigating violence against Ahmedis

Mob tries to burn houses of Ahmadis in Layyah

Ahmadi Muslim Murdered in Pakistan

Gunmen kill Ahmadi shop owner in Kotri

Muslim Groups Demand Police Crackdown on Ahmadiyah Sect

West Nusa Tenggara set to ban Ahmadiyah

Brutal murder of two Ahmadi doctors in Multan

Brutal murder of Ahmadi hubsand and wife in Pakistan

West Lombok forbids Ahmadiyah refugees from returning home

Fifteen Ahmadis charged in Pakistan under Anti-Ahmadiyya Legislation

Religious broadcast by GEO TV linked to Murder of two Ahmadi

Punjab Medical College Expels 23 Ahmedi Students

[R.A.W]

Even the Prophet s.a.w. and the Suhabas used to avoid siting with na-mehrams “specially” sharing jokes while “siting in front of them”.

Following is one of the examples out of many on youtube, how Mirza Tahir sahab made it halal for himself to share jokes with even some women who are not doing parda properly. Please don’t tell me that all of them in all the videos are mehram, few of the incidents are in a foreign country. Even if some of them are mehram, then why did Mirza sahab allowed their video to be made by media (some of them without proper parda) ?

;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPP1ChyOhZ8https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83yvgG78Nss

[R.A.W]

This one is really funny. Made me laugh. Good sense of humor

In the English version, the ages are reduced but still funny. Seems like he likes this joke very much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewzN0UkfkoM

[R.A.W]

@test01

Where Ahmadis are in number, Islam is getting a good name.

I understand why. The following video elaborates it all. Yes yes 2+2 = 4 but let us also accept 2+2 = 5 to make hindus happy. Love for all, everyone is on the right path. Ishwar ko dekhna hai to Qadiyan aao. Jahan Nara-e-Raam aur Allah-o-Akbar aik hi mehfil mein ho’n, jahan log daad dein jab aik aadmi kahey “Ishwar Allah khuda sab aik hi hein” to phir is ka faisla Allah ki karega ke what is meant by “Love for all” and what is the policy of Followers of MGA.

[system]

Another lie. Do you ever read anything on the subject that you come here and discuss? Please read the links I have posted, declare your own these scholars non-Muslim for agreeing with the Ahmadiyya view on Khatm-e-Nabuwat and Jesus dying a natural death and then come back for discussion.

One should understand that issues involving doctrinal interpretations ... require extensive knowledge of Arabic Language, Holy Quran, Sunna, Hadith,Fiqah , extensive knowledge of the context of revelations of Quranic Ayat & Hadith, knowledge of & mastery at the methodology of ascertaining authenticity of references.Familiarity with the views of a wide spectrum of experts of these fields on a particular topic from different regions & during different periods. In the absence of such credentials, it cannot be ascertained whether quotations & references are authentic, quoted in their correct context , haven't been falsely interpreted..., this is the reason I had repeatedly requested this forum is inappropriate for discussions involving doctrinal/theological/fiqah evaluations. What you have been doing is simply labeling people false based on your own interpretation of truths... quoting what in your view is evidence/references with your own interpretations of it...

While you are at it when you quoted me why did you choose to ignore rational arguments for the finality of prophethood that I had raised in my post
For your convenience I am including them here again

Surah-Al-Ahzab Ayat 40
"Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Apostle of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets(Khatem-on-Nabeein): and Allah has full knowledge of all things."

The word Khatam has two meanings

1) Khatam means the end of something,termination.
2) Khatam also means completion/conclusion/consumation/perfected.

this raises 3 possibilities..,
1) only the first meaning was intended in the Ayat.
2) only the second meaning was intended in the Ayat.
3) both the first & second meaning were intended simultaneously in this ayat.

The Muslim community interprets that both meanings were intended simultaneously(this is how this word is used most of the times)..., the Ahmediyaa belief is that only the second meaning was intended...

My argument is that believing in the second meaning in absolute sense in this context of Nabowat & Wahi logically entails the first meaning

Please consider these
1) Allah's Hidayat/Noor/Nabowat was perfected & reached its climax in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in the form of Quran
2) The integrity of Quran is protected from all concoctions, fabrications till eternity
3) Deen has been perfected/culminated on our Holy Prophet
4) The greatness of Humanity has been perfected in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH meaning there can be no greater human being after our Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH
5) The Risalat of our Holy prophet PBUH is global/eternal for all people till Qayamat & not limited to any time-space constraints.
If one believes on all of the above then there remains no rational justification for the continuation of the institution of Naboowat & Wahi.

There will be different people who would reach different levels of sprituality & different degree of 'Qurb-e-Illahi'... , there will be Aulia/Wali-Allah..., however there is not a quantitative but a qualitative difference between them & Ambia-e-Karam.. between the highest spiritual experience & Wahi..., The sole purpose of Allah's Wahi is Hidaya & after consummation of Allah's Hidaya & Allah himself taking responsibility for its protection sending other Nabis & Wahi would be purposeless..., & Allah does not act without purpose.

Finally, I would advice you to launch a petition in Federal Shariah court in Pakistan challenging the constitution that declares Ahmedya community as non-muslims...., lobby for a debate/amendment of the constitution in the National assembly , surely your people have infiltrated the highest ranks & files of civil & military bureaucracy to posses such influence; hold munazras with the most learned & respected of scholars of Muslim Ummah.... , surely in doing so you would be doing a great service to your community & this would be a a much noble way of approaching this issue rather then deciet , unobjective coercion & convolving

[nonameismyname]

Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

ok guys alllll the discussion is based on the ‘KHATAM’

non ahmadis believe it means ‘Last’ but the arabic dictionary says it means ‘seal’ …
I am confused does this mean Muhammad pbuh is the seal of all prophets and NOT the last law bearing prophet?

Electronic Dictionary, Electronic Translator, Software for Translation for 45 languages - ECTACO UK

[test01]

@nonameismyname

ok guys alllll the discussion is based on the ‘KHATAM’

non ahmadis believe it means ‘Last’ but the arabic dictionary says it means ‘seal’ …
I am confused does this mean Muhammad pbuh is the seal of all prophets and NOT the last law bearing prophet?

Electronic Dictionary, Electronic Translator, Software for Translation for 45 languages - ECTACO UK

Muhammad pbuh IS the last law bearing prophet..but Rasululah saw also prophesised return of Isa. As first Isa has died a natural death, another person will come in his name.

This is not a new concept. When Jesus declared himself Messiah for Jews, Jews demanded to see Elijah (Hazrat Ilyas) who although having passed earlier was prophesised to return with Messiah. Jesus pointed at John (Hazrat Yahya) and said he is Elijah (ie John has come in the name of Elijah, as Elijah having passed already can not return according to Allah’s law that dead can not return). At this Jews rejected Jesus as they demanded to see the original Elijah and not another person in has name.

Jesus explained:

“In fact, he [Elijah] already has come, but he wasn’t recognized, and was badly mistreated by many… Then the disciples realized he [Jesus] was speaking of John the Baptist.”

Matthew 17:10-13 (LIVING BIBLE-CATHOLIC EDITION) (this account can also be found in: Mark 9:11-13)

[Bigboi]

Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

test01

great job

but leave them alone! The dogs have to started barking again like R.A.W.

What a silly man, he comes with Non-Mehram Story. As if the Hazur was sitting with the women alone in a corner and making nude jokes! You are so low! You think so low about others!

I think for everything we need a extra explanation, for people who are dumb and cannot think about what they allegedly believe in! It's not like that, that he was sitting with them
and cracking up jokes like people do whne they go on a mass date or whatetver, he is also giving lectures, but what will you know?

Muhammad Mustafa (saw) is not called liberator of Woman for no reason. You can crack up jokes with non-mehram women I guess and then you are fine, right?

[R.A.W]

Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

The dogs have to started barking again like R.A.W.

What a silly man, he comes with Non-Mehram Story. As if the Hazur was sitting with the women alone in a corner and making nude jokes! You are so low! You think so low about others!

I said that it is not allowed for any Muslim man to sit with/in front of na-mehram and give lecture or share jokes. You took it in the wrong direction. I never meant to say any of the things you have said above.

Let me repeat to make it easier for you. Did Hazrat Abu-bakr (r.a), Hazrat Umar (r.a), Hazrat Usman (r.a), or Hazrat Ali (r.a) EVER sat with na-mehram and gave lecture to them ?

Please share sources if you have. I have mentioned the above four khalifas as example because Mirza Tahir Sahab (with all due respect) is not even equal to the level of the above mentioned 4 personalities (Ahmadies agress ?). When those 4 kept "parda" from na-mehram, why did Mirza sahab not follow their example ?

There is flexibility for PROPHETs (even though they used to keep parda) but a KHALIFA not maintaining parda is not allowed as evident from the lives of the 4 khalifas.

[nonameismyname]

Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

^ hmm i understand both the points... but as you said about khalifas... i wonder if and when...

@ RAW... plz help in explaining.

A non-muslim/quraishi/aethist woman came to mecca or madinah - did Hazur pbuh refuse to see them? explain to them what islam is, what quran is, that God wanted them to do pardah?

i mean may be he sent them to his wives, but he is the Prophet of Allah not his wives? and i would imagine that a non muslim would be without pardah to start with?

^ no hostility intended, plz inform on basis of hadith and quran, thanks in advance guys.

[nonameismyname]

Re: What is Marzee is it religoin or way ?

... also i am still thinking about KHATAM meaning seal and not last..

in process of reading their website.. alislam.org lets see