Lets talk about the false prophets came after/during Prophet Muhammad PBUH's time. You are openly accepting that they had their own shariyah, and that they were raising an army against Muslims. Now, me and you agree with this that it is not permissible. Anyone caught doing this should be killed. Period. I've repeatedly said, shariyat e Muhammadi PBUH's is now the last shariyat till qiyamah. Quran is the last word of Allah. Anyone claiming to be sent by Allah with a different shariyah, causing it to cancel the shariya of Prophet Muhammad PBUH is surely an imposter, and a liar. Theres no question there. People claiming to be prophets and preach their very own religion are liars. They should be killed and have been killed in the past as you have mentioned, and thats the promise Allah Himself makes.
Now we do agree that their cannot be any Shairah which opposes/cancel sharaiyat-e-Mohammadi, and if anyone does that is surely an imposter and liar, technically speaking a Dajjal!!!
One is free to change his/her beliefs/religion at any stage of his/her life. When the same right is given to people of different religion, it is also a right given to people in Islam. BUT the condition is, if he/she does not propogate any false teachings of Islam. According to Dr.Israr and Zakir Naik, it is totally different... even if he/she propagates his/her new religion, they should still be killed.
Now as you previously said, that it is not islamic teaching to give death penalty for apostates. It is, as you said all politics. Again.. if i show you a video in which Dr. Israr Ahmad and Zakir Naik themselves are admitting that they should be killed.. what am i suppose to believe?. You... or the ulamas from whom you get these knowledge from?
I never said giving death penalities to apostates have political motives.
Now as of Dr. Israar and Dr. Zakir naik is considered, i do not know which videos you are referring to, and it they have given any ruling on this issue, it need to examined in its context, taking things out-of-context can have terrible impact. Anyway, if this is what they believe then it is their believe and they are answerable on this and it does not have any effect on the credibility of these two scholars. As a matter of fact i am pretty much inspired by both of them, but i donot follow anyone blindly.
Coming to the topic of Esa AS. What I am about to type right now , i'd really like and urge you to try to think about it with a very neutral mind.
I accept you to do the same, participate, think neutrally and let you mind ask questions and let him find answers to them. Do not Folllow blindly, as it can take anyone to the doors of hell.
Inshallah the hate you have towards jamaat e ahmadiyya will vanish within seconds. Inshallah.
I don't have any hate for Ahmadies/Qadyanies or Lahori groups or any other religion for that matter. It is, if i hate them, how can i invite them to the true and divine guidance, but i do maintain the stand as per the teaching of Islam, and if it hurts them, then let it be, as i have no control on the truth and i reveal it when ever requried. ( it is like, one have to bear a little pain of injection to avoid a serious pain any illness can cause)
You and I both believe that there are hadiths about His arrival. Where we have different belief is that whether He'll be coming bodily or His name/qualities/title should be transferred/ given to someone else. As Hadith says that He AS will be following the shariyah of Muhammad PBUH, and not any other. Question now is : Bodily or title will be given to someone amongst the ummah of Muhammad PBUH?
We as ahmadis believe that Prophet Esa AS died a natural death and is no longer be coming back bodily. He AS as we believe him to be , was a true prophet of Allah and like any other prophet.. was a human being and was mortal. .. and the hadith mentioning about the coming of Esa AS is actually referring to Imam Mahdi AS himself. There has never been an instance ever since the creation of this universe when Allah SWT has ever 'raised' somoene towards Him bodily and took Him up with him and send him down whenever ordered. This is a very ignorant thought.. (when i say this , dont even think im disrespecting Him AS in any way naozubillah). When Hadith talks about Hazrat e Isa AS and His arrival, He SAW meant Imam Mahdi AS. He is to be given the title of Isa AS.
Now, I guess you are referring to Hadees of Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) in which it is said ( not the exact words), that there is no Mehdi except, Essa (AS) and if i am not wrong here, all the Qadayani/Ahmadi belief is revloving around the very concept you have mentioned.
Now According to Scholars of Ilm-e-Hadees, the hadees is either fabricated or is Dae'ef, Scholars like Al-Hakim, Qurtubi and Al Bayhaqi cosider it Da''eef and others like Imam Nisa'ai, Al-Dhahabi, Ibn-e-Tameemah and Al-Sanaa'i classed it fabricated. (ref. Minhaaj-ul-Sunnah, Al-Silsilah-al Da'eef)
Now the best scenario to suit ur case, is to take Al-Hakim and Qurtubi's view point, which says that the hadees is Da'eef, now you know that an important religious affair cannot be based on some Da'eef hadees, it does not make any logic nor it does carrys any weight!!! or Does it!!!
Think about prophet Elijah AS ( Iliyaas AS). He AS was said to be taken up as well. When Jews asked Jesus AS that before you, Elijah AS was suppose to appear and asked where He AS was. The reply given to Jews by Jesus AS was that this prophecy has been fulfilled in the form of John the Baptist ( Hazrat Yahya AS ). No surprise, since Jews habit was/is to take every single thing told to them literally, they rejected Jesus AS and Hazrat Yahya AS. Please dont let this habit of Jews overtake you as Muslims. Promised Messiah AS says :
Zahoor e Mahdi e akhir zamaaN hai
Sambhal jao ke waqt e imtehaaN hai.
You want me to believe the Word of Jews and their testament!!! their books,which are fabricated to an extent where, Allah has to refute all of their books??? These Jews who said that Prophet Yehya ( AS) use to eat locust and grass-hooper and was a dirty man, who was born as in normal.. Well, in case you have not noticed that, The birth of Yehya (AS) was a miraculus birth as well, When Allah All Mighty Told Prophet Zakaria (AS) that he will have a son, and the prophet said, that how can i have son, I am old man and my wife cannot deliver one!!!
the reason i mentioned the interpretation of Quranic verse and About Miraculus birth of Prophet Yahya, jews have fabricated their books, they were wating for the Return of Prophet Elijah (Illyas) (AS), Jews have no no doubtly fabricated their books and i'll not be surprised that in order to compete on Return of Jeses, they have used something like Return of Elijah (AS), who to startwith, have no reason to goto heaven in bodily form, unlike Jesus (AS). I can argue on this notion in length,but it will certainly derail the topic, so I may put forward my question that, in case there are two contradicting divine verses, one from Old-testament and one from Quran, which will you take.. your answer wil help us to sort out this issue as well.
Think exactly like that when you speak about the arrival of Jesus AS. He AS is not to be coming from skies bodily but His title of Messiah is to be given to someone amongst Muslim Ummah.
Now, for sake of discussion, let say Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadayni was the promised Messiah, and his claim to be Messiah was true, did he did, what the promise Messiah should have done??? Christainity is still there!!! the most important part of prophecy is, the moment Jesus will Return, all the christains will convert, and this will happen in his life time... i am not asking to give me all the chirstains in the world but it seems that the chirstians of India, even didn't bought it!!! Please explain on this!!!!
As per your saying, He AS will NOT be bringing new shariyah and will be following the shariyah of Muhammad PBUH. Think about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS). He (AS) never brought new shariyah and since the title of prophet to Him was given by Prophet Muhammad PBUH Himself ( when talked about Esa AS ), He we then believe was a non-law bearing prophte ( exactly as per your belief ).
Yes, Prophet Essa (AS) will not be bringing any new Shariyah, but there are more things attached to it. One i have mentioned above, and more are like, He'll come at the time when Muslims, where in war against Anti-Christ, the Prophet Essa (AS) will kill the Anti-Christ and as result of that war, Jews will be defeated once for all...
That is certainly not the case here, Jews are controlling the world economy and powers, Christainity is still their in a way or other supporting these Jews.. which prophecy has been fulfilled??? Anyone can make claim of being Mehdi or Jesus (AS) but there are other things attached to the string!!! Isn't it!!!
Second point you raised about the belief of Muslim regarding Jesus AS. Jesus AS was/is/and will be a nabi. The title of Nabi is given to Him by Quran itself. Hadiths also mention Him various times as the prophet of Allah. He AS as you and I both agree will be following Shariya e Muhammadi SAW and will not add nor subtract anything from the complete religion of Islam. Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS ( a nabi , given the title by none other than Allah in Quran, and in many hadith ) , and Jesus AS will not add or subtract anything from Islam ( Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS never claimed a prophet of its own, He AS mentioned various times that whatever He AS is , is due to being the servent of the servents of Prophet Muhammad PBUH. ) He says in one of His nazams :
Wo Peshwa hamaara jis se hai noor saara
Naam uss ka hai Muhammad (SAW) dilbar mera yehi hai.
Thus He AS claiming of Messiah is also clear and Him being claimed as nabi as well. I would like to quote Him AS again...What beautiful way of learning the beliefs of Jamaat then the leader Himself.. He (AS) says in one of his nazam and i quote:
*Har taraf fikar ko dorhaa ke thakaaya hum ne *
*Koi Deen Deen E Muhammad (SAAW) sa na paaya hum ne *
Subhaanallah. Indeed indeed. (i hope u liked it).
I guess i answered it above
When you hold the belief that He AS will come and will come as a nabi ( perhaps you didnt say it and used the word reformer, but I can quote your ullamas if you want ), and will not bring any new law which will cancel the shariya of Muhammad PBUH.. you are considered Muslim. The moment we ACCEPT that person, we are outside the fold of Islam? Talk about being just and fair.
Every single belief regarding Jesus AS is fulfilled on Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS. One needs an unbiased and neutral mind to think about it. His coming, Him being called nabi.. Him killing swine and breaking the cross. Then the great prophecy of lunar and solar eclipse for the arrival of Imam Mahdi, the arrival in around 14th century.. etc.
Please tell me which prophecies regarid Jesus (AS) has been fulfilled by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyani, The Birth of Jesus ibn Maryam was an open miracle, his 2nd coming have same signs, please tell us about those open signs???
I now see the reason why non-muslims say Islam is spread by sword.. When Muslims themselves claim that Messiah will come who will lead them in war ( a real one you think.. )..
Non-Muslims says many other bad thing about islam and its history.. so should we believe them all!!!
Islam has never spread like that. Its spread with continuous prayers and sacrifices. Perhaps you and I didnt witness the war Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad AS fought but millions of people at that time witnessed and even today say that He AS fought with pen against the allegations made on Allah's deen Islam by Aryaan and Christians at that time. When all the ullama e deen were sleeping, He AS alone took the challenges and defeated them , causing many of them to embrace Islam. War my friend is not only with sword, which will only create chaos at that moment but the war of pen is something that leaves its signs for generations and generations to come. If the books written by Aryaans and Christians at that time against Islam were to be there today.. we would have led so many innocent Muslims go astray by letting them leave the beautiful deen Islam. He AS engaged in wars and defeated them. ( killed swine, break crosses and was continuously in war ).
you should not tell this to us ( the Muslims) but you should tell this to christains and jews and communists that the war is not fought with weapons, and it should be done by pen, hopefully they'll believe you and stop bombing the muslims all around world.
The Prophet Mohammad (SAAW) has himself, taken part in the wars ( the real one),are you saying that the Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyani have changed this sunnat, and HE have introduced the new war-games, that are fought with pens??? is this what u mean???
Indeed cross is not broken, it is still there, with all the power and controll on the globe, so how the cross is broken...???
These things as i earlier said requires one to have a very clear mind with no hatred towards our jamaat to realize the truthfullness of this great deen of Allah. We truly regard Quran to be the perfect book and what greatly He AS sums this up too.. He AS says in his nazam regarding the greatness of this Noble Holy and divinly Book :
Hai Shukar e rabb e azawajal kharijaz bayaaN
Jis ke Kalaam Se Hamein Uss ka Mila NishaaN.
sigh i feel like quoting Him once again..
Jamaal o Husn e QuraaN Noor e Jaan Har MusalmaaN hai
Qamar hai Chaand aoroN ka, Hamaara Chaand Quraan hai.
PS: i just realized i quoted Him AS a little more than i wanted, but o well, maybe these little sayings from His numerous nazams will make someone know Him a little better, and who know may eliminate hate from someone's heart. The sayings fitted so well as i was making my point that i had to quote Him AS, it just makes the post more interesting to read.
I agree, one should have neutral mind set in these kind of debates, and i assume that you practice the same.
