What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

well thats obvious, Mr.Popet ran out of arguments and got u here to use abusive lang... yup you may continue to abouse more... what is better than get abused in the Name of religion... an that is by sme Qadyani...

I believe Mr. de-toxed posed as a guy with High moral values and same was tried by Popat... but this is my observation that two kind of peoples/groups cannot maintain high moral values.. 1st ; left with no argument what so ever.. 2nd; who follow a false religion and imposter.. the both scenarios do fit on qadyanies... so please continue to display your true colors...

Mr Hanibal

shall we carry on with topic in hand rather than abusing each other?

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

So did i abused anyone... it is you who is managing/mastered in the department...

anyway, i didn't knew that you are talking on every Qadyani's behalf!!! on top of that, it is you who is interupting every now and then... i didn't quoted you..

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

WOW this thread managed to get to page 15 ..... what on earth is going on here ????

Have the Mods been on vacation or what ????

Hanibal, I appologize in behalf of Bigboi. Just because he has some anger problem, you cannot say the same for the entire ahmadiyya jamaat. If by one person accusing you makes us all the same type, then i guess i can assume the same about you when iftikhaar uses the abusive language. Will you be ok with that?. Do you have the same kind of character as iftikhaar here? Is it appropriate to come to this conclusion? Zero_one, Let it be my friend. If we're not given the chance to defend ourselves openly.. we can atleast do that here.. and infact im having fun asking these people questions and replying them.

[quote]
well thats obvious, Mr.Popet ran out of arguments and got u here to use abusive lang... yup you may continue to abouse more... what is better than get abused in the Name of religion... an that is by sme Qadyani...
[/quote]
I cant believe you just said that. After all the debates we have been having thus far. Do u think I am the one who ran out of arguments? You are the one failed to reply to my posts. You did not tell me more about Muslimah and other false prophets who claimed, when i asked you to?You didnt seem to answer me when i asked you if they them raising armies against Muslims was right?.. You did not seem to answer me when i gave u answers about ur questions. You did not reply when i told you what Muhammad Ali Jinnah's point of view regarding the nation of Pakistan was.. C'mon buddy. If you cant answer the questions i asked you, atleast try not to accuse me of running 'out of arguments'. I have no need of asking anyone to abuse you. Everyone has their own temper and one person here is not representing the whole jamaat, just like Iftikhaar ( i assume) is not representing you. Or is he?

yaar issi baat ka to ghum hai ke aap mujhe quote hi nahin kar rahe!

indeed indeed...i told the mods to keep away until i m around...join us....at the moment we are on Wafaat e Masih issue.

Its refreshing to see someone actually express themselves in a sensible manner. Whereas most posters have an unreasonably hostile and acusatory attitude towards this subject, the tone of your post encourages fruitful discourse. It is a mutually understood fact that we disagree on the subject but that doesn't mean we, as educated people, can't talk about it without hostility and confrontation.

One should understand that khatam-un-nabiyeen is being used as praise. Otherwise what does not being the father of any man have to do with being khatam-un-nabiyeen. The word 'but' also confirms this. In the Arab world, it was considered an honour to have many sons while daughters were considered an insult. Allah is saying in this verse that even though the Holy Prophet (saw) is not the father of any man, yet he is rasool-ullah and as such a spiritual father of all muslims. Not only this, but he is Khatam-un-nabiyeen meaning that he is also the best of all the prophets. If the meaning of khatam-un-nabiyeen is to be taken as the last then what honour is there in being last in a line of prophets.

[quote]

The word Khatam has two meanings

1) Khatam means the end of something,termination.
2) Khatam also means completion/conclusion/consumation/perfected.

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Khatam also means seal, which is used to certify the authenticity of a document. It should also be noted that the meaning of any word is that which is in everyday use by the speakers of that language. In other words, what did the Arabs understand the word to mean. In that regard, the word khatam has been used by Arabs for many different personalities from before the time of the Holy Prophet(saw) to long after him. People have been referred to as khatam-u-shoara, khatam-ul-muhadiseen etc. etc. Moreover, we find instances of the word's use by none other than the Holy Prophet(saw) on different occasions. All these points should be taken into account in order to understand the meaning of the word khatam. I can provide detailed references to all the points mentioned above.

[quote]
this raises 3 possibilities..,
1) only the first meaning was intended in the Ayat.
2) only the second meaning was intended in the Ayat.
3) both the first & second meaning were intended simultaneously in this ayat.

Muslim ummah interprets that both meanings were intended simultaneously(this is how this word is used most of the times)..., the Ahmediyaa belief is that only the second meaning was intended...
[/quote]

First we have to establish the meaning of the word khatam and then we can move on to the belief of Ahmadis in regard to the meaning. I will mention that Ahmadis believe in all the meanings of Khatam-un-nabiyeen, that are supported by the Qura'an, Sunnah, Hadith, and the use of Arabs.

[quote]
The argument I want to put forward is that believing in the second meaning in absolute sense in this context of Nabowat & Wahi logically entails the first meaning

Please consider these
1) Allah's Hidayat/Noor/Nabowat was perfected & reached its climax in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH in the form of Quran
2) The integrity of Quran is protected from all concoctions, fabrications till eternity
3) Deen has been perfected/culminated on our Holy Prophet & our holy prophet successfully established a society/state in Medina based on the true deen in a single life-span .
4) The greatness of Humanity has been perfected in the person of our Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad PBUH meaning there can be no greater human being after our Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH
5) The Risalat of our Holy prophet PBUH is global/eternal for all people till Qayamat & not limited to any time-space constraints.
[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote]

If one believes on all of the above then there remains no rational justification for the continuation of the institution of Naboowat & Wahi. Because it would Na-Aaozobillah , Na-Aaozobillah mean
1) Allah's Hidayat/Noor/Nabowat has NOT been perfected on our Holy Prophet PBUH in the form of Quran OR
2) The integrity of Quran is NOT protected from all concoctions, fabrications till eternity OR
3) Deen has NOT been perfected/culminated on our Holy Prophet OR
4) There remains a possibility of any human being capable of reaching the greatness of our holy prophet OR
5) The Risalat of our Holy prophet PBUH is either NOT Global OR is time-bound OR
6) Allah acts without purpose.

There will be different people who would reach different levels of spirituality & different degree of 'Qurb-e-Illahi'... , there will be Aulia/Wali-Allah..., however there is not a quantitative but a qualitative difference between them & Ambia-e-Karam.. between the highest spiritual experience & Wahi..., The sole purpose of Allah's Wahi is Hidaya & after consummation of Allah's Hidaya & Allah himself taking responsibility for its protection sending other Nabis & Wahi would be purposeless..., & Allah does not act without purpose.
[/quote]

There would be no rational justification for the continuation of nabuwwat that negated any of the points you noted. If the Qura'an and Hadith both allow the coming of a prophet then we can't close the door that Allah and His messenger(saw) didn't close.

Here i would like to draw your attention to the need for nabuwwat. The Holy Prophet(saw) fortold the decline of his Ummah and its revival by Imam Mahdi and Jesus son of Mary. The state of the Ummah in our time is a testament to the truth of our Holy Prophet(saw). Despite all five of your points being true and correct, muslims have declined and gone astray. There is no unity and no sense of direction present.

There is a fine point here that the preservation of the message is guaranteed but the preservation of the society established by the Holy Prophet(saw) in Madina is not guaranteed. On the contrary, its deterioration is prophesized and the reason cited for that deterioration is the gradual move of the muslims away from the teachings of Islam.

Now if the correctness of your five points meant that muslims would not move away from the perfect teaching and thus would not need a reformer then it would be correct that we don't need a prophet, new or old. On the other hand, if it was known by Allah, the all knowing, that there would be a need for a prophet but still closed the door of nabuwwat then that would be cruel. An analogy can be made with the need for water. If it was known that after a certain time, there would be no need for water then it is perfectly fine to eliminate water after that point is reached. But if the thirst for water was there, and still the tap was closed then it would be cruelty.

We know from authentic ahadith that Imam Mahdi and Jesus son of Mary were going to apear after the Holy Prophet(saw). The question is why? If the message is complete and Allah has guaranteed its protection, then why do we need a prophet at all, new or old? If we analyze the non-ahmadi view on this we reach the following conclusion. Allah knew that there was going to be need for a prophet after the Holy Prophet (saw) but had decided to make the Holy Prophet(saw) the last prophet, so He decided to take an earlier prophet alive to the heaven so that he can be brought back at some time in the future thus bypassing khatamiyyat-e-Mohammadi (saw).

The ahmadi view is that the Jesus mentioned in the ahadith is actually a person from the ummah of the Holy Prophet(saw) who would have the qualities of Jesus, the reason he is metaphorically called Jesus. We base this view on the fact that Jesus son of mary has died a natural death as mentioned by the Qura'an. It is indeed iluminating to find the mention of the death of Jesus, in the Qura'an, more often than of any other human. When we look at the Qura'an and Hadith at the same time, we find that Jesus is going to come sometime in the future but also that the Jesus has died. Thus we have no choice but to take the hadith's reference to the readvent of Jesus as a metaphore.

It is a different issue that the coming of a prophet who is a subordinate of the Holy Prophet Mohammad(saw) doesn't in any way contradict khatmiyyat-e-Mohamadi(saw). The post has already gotten very long so i'll wait for your response. I am ready to lay out detailed proof and refernce for all the points made in the post when i have time.

Did hadees actually mentioned the name of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed or you just added your two cents in the hadees?

May I suggest, in this age of a very sensitive socio-religious setup, it would help if we stop throwing fuel in the fire by not adding to or paraphrasing the hadees and ayat of quran so it looks like the hadees/ayat agrees to our POV, rather than our POV being in agreement with the hadees

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

I have answered stochastic earlier exactly the way chacha_Ghalib has replied him/her.. If chacha_Ghalib's reply doesnt satisfy you.. Look up my reply to you about ur questions,in this thread.

Explain what you mean by masooms?..

My friend, it makes no difference as i said earlier. You are welcome to use the term AS, R.A or PBUH for any prophet or khulfa e rashideen. It will mean exactly what AS , RA, or PBUH mean.. Why a "double WOW" when AS is used for Umar RA/PBUH.

Jesus PBUH/AS/RA. Makes no difference. Whole point is to give respect and praying for them at the same time.

Back up your stance with reference please. I really would like to know why it got you offended? It is a serious question. If im wrong i'll keep it in mind the next time i use AS/Ra/PBUH.. But if you cant prove your point, admit that you were wrong in doing "double WOW". We are all here to learn from eachother , please enlighten me with your knowledge about this issue. Thanks.

U don't need to be apologize on anyone's behalf... he did what he felt was right!!! well see there is ur double standards, if i am not wrong, you or de-toxed or one of ur friend in this very thread asked for banning him or something like this kind.. now when ur guy do that... it is different behaviour... hummmmmmmmmmmm wonder what it is called..

anyway... i don't see you answering questions or did i missed that part...

My Dear Qadyani friend,

Check the reply i have put forward, on which Bigboi used abusive Lang!!! have u checked that!!!

And just to remind you , i told you in one of the posts that, lets discuss a certain part/question first and them come to others, that is Knowledge and Source of Knowledge of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan and I am really sorry if you have missed this part, because i was under impression that, if i write everything in one reply, it will be meter long reply and would be difficult to read and reply... anyway, i am still waiting for your comment, before i move to other parts...

Well i am surprised by ur reply, if you have scrolled down a little, you may have found a the hadees i have posted... it is post number 219

Now when it comes to the point of mentioning names, no hadees is there, and at the same time there are hadees clearly saying that ( not the exact words) there'll be no prophet after ME.

Now in light of above two ahadees, any one who claims to be the Prophet is Imposter i.e. Dajjal.. may it be Muslima Kazzab, or Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan...

I'didn't get you second point, so if in this socio-religious setup, some chirstian comes and says that Jesus (AS) is son of Allah, we should accept it and yes he is and we agree to this???

If some other imposter claims to be a prophet and His follower, joins this forum and says yes he is Prophet... should we ignore those ahadees and in order to keep peace in the forum, we should agree with them... this what you suggesting my friend...

And just for ur refrence, if you look into the post, i was asking him if he knows about the ahadees where Prophet (SAAW) has warned us against Dajjals ( Imposters), and i was asking him if he has any idea about it!!! and later i posted the ahadees..

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

It is stated in the Quran that I’sa (Alaihis Salam) was raised to the Heaven alive.

Allah Ta’ala says,

“And when 'Isa sensed disbelief in them, he said: “who are my helpers in the way of Allah?” The disciples said: “We are helpers of Allah.” We believe in Allah; so be witness of our submission.” (52) “Our Lord, we have believed in what you have revealed, and we have followed the Messenger. So, record us with those who bear witness (to the truth).” (53) And they (the opponents of 'Isa) devised a plan, and Allah devised a plan, and Allah is the best of all planners. (54)

When Allah said: “O 'Isa, I am to take you in fall and to raise you towards Myself, and to cleanse you of those who disbelieve, and to place those who follow you above those who disbelieve up to the day of resurrection. Then to Me is your return, whereupon I will judge between you in that over which you have differed. (55) As for those who disbelive, I shall punish them a severe punishment in this world and in the Hereafter; they shall have no helpers.” (3:52-6)

Commentary:

It is mentioned in verse 55, when Allah said, “O 'Isa, I am to take you in fall and raise you towards My self.”

The word مُتَوَفِّيكَ (Mutawaffika) is used by the Quran. The word Tawaffi, the root word of Mutawaffika, is also used for ‘bringing death,’ but the word used by the Quran cannot mean that 'Isa (Alaihis Salam) has died because, firstly the next word ‘and raise you towards Myself’ clearly negates this sense and, secondly, the Quran has clarified the position in 4:157-158 where it is said,“while infact they did neither kill him, nor crucify him, but they were deluded by resemblance. Those who disputed in this matter are certainly in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, but they follow whims. It is absolutety certain that they did not kill him, but Allah lifted him towards himself. Allah is Almighty, All-wise.”

And in 4:159 it is said, "There is none from the People of the book, but shall certainly believe in him before he dies." This verse indicates that 'Isa (Alaihis Salam) will come again to this world before the Day of Judgement, and then all the people of the Book will truly believe in him before he dies a normal death. Some commentators, however, suggest that the pronoun مَوْتِهِ ‘he dies’ refers to ‘one among the people of the Book’ and the sense is that every Jew and Christian will believe in 'Isa as a Prophet (and not as a god) immediately before his death, when he will witness the scenes of Barzakh (the state between death and resurrection).

Also, in 43:61 it is declared that he ('Isa (Alaihis Salam)) is one of the signs of Qiyamah which means that he will descend again in the last days of this world.

(See: Ibn Katheer, Qurtubi, Ma’ariful Quran)

This ayat could also be interpreted in this way .... "Sons are considered to be material & spiritual heirs of their fathers, Sons of Prophet have been prophets (not all sons of all prophets have been, but there is a rich tradition amongst the children of Hazrat Ibrahim PBUH , prophetoodh continued from one generation to the next). So this ayat when looked from this perspective implies that our holy prophet PBUH marks an end of or close with as of seal of Prophethood, & no one will be his successor in the matter of Prophethood.

Khattam when translated as a seal of authenticity means seal applied on something that has reached perfection or culminated or a dialectical process reaching its climax.
But I admit my knowledge of Arabic is very rudimentary infact non-existant I can just read the Quran & know the meaning of some-words as a result of memorizing the translation of some Surat, I have no knowledge of Arabic grammar.

Please make a distinction between a Nabi & a mujadid...Prophet & Reformer ,
While the Ummah needs mujadid for revival; mujadids are not Nabi..., Imam Mehdi has a distinction that he will be the last & the Mujadid-e-Kamil(revive the Ummah in every aspect) but he will NOT Be A Nabi..., also make a distinction between Allah's Miraculous help & revelation Wahi.
While during the end times it is a belief amongst the Muslim Ummah that Imam Mehdi & Hazrat Issa PBUH will be supplemented with miracles that will be decisive in the revival of the Ummah but there is no need & therefore there will not be any new revelations/Wahi.
In the quran there is mention of an incident between Hazrat Moosa & a person (that is largely considered amongst the scholars to be Hazrat Khizer AS). The person was supplemented by miracles & had access to such knowledge of Gaib that even the Nabi/Rasool of the time , (by all accounts Hazrat Moosa PBUH is one of the most Glorous Prophet of Allah), did not know, but that person(Hazrat Khizer) was not a nabi.

This is your own interpretation of non-ahmedi view I may post on this topic but I would rather want you to listen to the talk that I had posted earlier on the topic of Rafa-e-Nazool-Massih, in order to understand the second coming of Hazrat Issa PBUH one must understand the distinction between Nabi & Rasool, the terminologies of Azab-e-Istisal .. the like of which was inflicted upon Qaum-e-Hood & Aad & Loot.

Now, if you are accepting that belief in the continuation of Nabowat has no rational justification , I would opt out of any further debate on this topic, because I consider myself least qualified to discuss this matter from doctrinal or theological perspective.But I fully recognize that the basis of righteousness in the context of doctrine is not rational or empirical coherence , for a concept or a proposition to be considered doctrinally sound it must logically entail through devine commandments as prescribe in the Holy Quran & Sunnah. However, Your claim ' Qura'an and Hadith both allow the coming of a prophet' is a preconceived notion , while I may not be qualified to participate in this debate , there are other more knowledgable participants that are debating with you on this topic so your conclusion is hasty & therefore inauthentic.
However, I fundamentally disagree for a forum like this to be used for doctrinal/theological debates, A very good example of what I am talking about is when you said

Now, I am not sure about you, but certainly I do not possess the knowledge of Arabic Language & thesaurus, expertise in the methodologies of ascertaining the veracity of references..., knowledge of history..,to have an effective debate on the subject & hold the same opinion regarding the majority of the participants on this forum.if you believe that you have a sound case provable through detailed references challenge the constitution of Pakistan in Federal Shariah Court, or have a debate with people who have the prerequisite knowledge to participate on discussions of doctrinal complexity. I think it is almost mischievous to debate & argue doctrine amongst people who are not qualified to make a veracious evaluation on this subject.

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

Prophet Isa (as) son of Maryam was raised up to heaven when the Jews wanted to crucify him. His ascension to Heaven and his future return to earth are mentioned in the Qur'an:
"That they say (in boast): 'We killed the Messiah Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Isa was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not, but Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the scripture but must believe in him before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Isa) will be a witness against them." ** ([FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Qur'an 4:157-159)
Prophet Isa (as) will return at the end of time, as stated in the Qur'an
**"And he (Jesus), shall be a Sign of the Hour"
Qur'an 43:61

Prophet Isa (as) will descend at the time when Muslims are experiencing the greatest of hardships. He will come to their help and make the religion of Allah prevail on Earth
The Muslims will recognise him by the features that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) described him
He said
I am the closest of all the people to Isa, son of Maryam, for there is no Prophet between him and myself. He will come again and when you see him, you will recognise him. He is of medium height and his complexion is reddish-white, he will be wearing two garments, and his hair will look wet, although no water had got to it
Related by Ahmad
The Time Prophet Isa (as) Will Descend
The coming of Isa (as) will be a glad tiding to the Muslims who stood firm and fought for the cause of Allah and did not succumb to the temptations of the Dajjal. At that time, the only two options for humanity will be to embrace Islam or die

"Allah will send the Messiah, son of Maryam, and he will descend to the white minaret in the East of Damascus, wearing two garments dyed with saffron, placing his hands on the wings of two angels. When he lowers his head, beads of perspiration will fall from it, and when he raises his head, beads like pearls will scatter from it. Every Kaffir (unbeliever) who smells the fragrance (of his breath) will die, and his breath will reach as far as he can see. He will search for the Dajjal until he finds him at the gate of Ludd where he will kill him. Then a group of people whom Allah has protected will come to Isa (as), son of Maryam, and he will wipe the traces of hardship from their faces and tell them of their place in Paradise. At that point, Allah will reveal to Isa (as): 'I have brought forth some of My servants whom no-one will be able to fight. Take my servants safely to Al-Tur.'
(Muslim )

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

Verse #33 of *SuratMaryam *means

Peace was on me the day I was born. Peace will be on me on the day I will die and on the day I am raised alive again

Re: What are the fundamental beliefs of Ahmadis?

another translation reads

*33. *"And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"