What actually happened at Karbala

[Das_Reich]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

^ huh ...i dont care what muawiyah did before he became muslim , even after he became muslim his track record isnt exactly great to put it very mildly ...These things happened AFTER the Prophet passed away.

[Das_Reich]

[QUOTE]
explain the bolded part plz if u cud. I am part of an org that has organizd quite a few progs so all nature and I seem to have missed out on sumthing.
[/QUOTE]

its been discussed before here but mostly the way a lot of maulanas get a lot of bussiness during muharram
plus the new trend in nohas

[QUOTE]

btw if u want to talk abt commercialism then Hajj has turned into a business like no other. So has Eid, Eid ul Adha, Milad, Naats-nasheeds etc.
[/quote]

[/QUOTE]

offcourse no one is denying that .....all those disco Naats etc and the Qari sahibs recieting Quran as if its a song

these people are all the same shia or sunni

[Pagluu]

its been discussed before here but mostly the way a lot of maulanas get a lot of bussiness during muharram plus the new trend in nohas

..

bro, i am not sure of the source of your information. We hve hosted over 50 speakers from all over the world here in UK and let me assure u....apart from the airfare, food and travel expenses, not a single speaker ever got more than few hundered ponds. we have had no speaker ever demand money and the sum given to em was completely at our discretion. If anything more then there has always been a present given as a token of appreciation which too is not of much value but rather more like a souvenier. Is this what you refering to when u say "a lot of business"?

[Numb]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

what is going here? what are few people trying to justify here? Why this thread? Give me a Headshot!

[Saqi_the_angel]

@desert_bird

Plz. share your views and thoughts .If anything you would find something different not usually quoted . Both sides of shias and sunnis are most welcomed. I have not gone through whole of it but in 3 part in beginning, he told Yazeed not participated in Constantipole War , a new thing to me though.

Here you found something intersting:

Minhaj-ul-Quran International - Those who love Yazid and his lovers are destined for Hell

[psyah]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

Peace All

Every year I hear on the news that the anniversary of karbala is one of the most 'religious' events for Shi'a Muslims.

I can't believe this to be true. Mouning or not mourning that seems to be a choice, but it can't be a religious event which earns reward. Mourning a death or a tragedy is not a form of 'ibadah it is merely a reaction of how one feels within.

If this is truly a Shi'a belief please explain how or why mourning is considered a form of worship. If it is not then please correct these news readers.

[Moonshiner]

If this is truly a Shi'a belief please explain how or why mourning is considered a form of worship. If it is not then please correct these news readers.

I don't think any Shia has made the claim that mourning is ibadah, but zikr and other prayer which happens during these events is ibadah.

[Pagluu]

Peace All

Every year I hear on the news that the anniversary of karbala is one of the most 'religious' events for Shi'a Muslims.

I can't believe this to be true. Mouning or not mourning that seems to be a choice, but it can't be a religious event which earns reward. Mourning a death or a tragedy is not a form of 'ibadah it is merely a reaction of how one feels within.

If this is truly a Shi'a belief please explain how or why mourning is considered a form of worship. If it is not then please correct these news readers.

bro, a majlis can be a very good form of ibada just like any other action can be. For example, watching TV can be a bad amal if u r wasting your time. But if u r watching Quran recitation or a discussion to seek knowledge then it cud be your favorite action in the eyes of the God.

Similarly, a majlis or mourning can surely be a good amal depending on how pure your intention/niyat is.

Remember that Zikr of Imam Hussain is Zikr of Tauheed, power of Nabowat, role of Imamat, believe on Qiyamat. In the 1430 years we have seen people sacrificing the religion that our Propehet completed to achieve their personal goals. But Imam Hussain was the person who sacrificed himself and everything he had to save the mission of the God and his favorite Prophet.

Shah ast Hussain, Badshah ast Hussain,
Deen ast Hussain, Deen e Panah ast Hussain,
Sar dad, na dad dast, dar dast-e-yazeed,
Haqaa key binaey La ila ast Hussain"

"Ruler is Hussain, Emperor is Hussain,
Religion is Hussain, Sheild of religion (Islam )
is Hussain, Gave his head but not his hand to Yazid,
Maintainer of the truth is no one but Hussain"

[Submission_To_Peace]

One major problem is that few shia brothers (not all) at times (due to flow of emotions) over-emphasize the importance of few aspects in Islam due to which it becomes difficult for few sunnis (not all ) to understand their "true" intentions. There are few other sunnis also who just for the sake of counter argument with fellow shia brothers, under-emphasize the importance of those aspects which shia brothers might be over-emphasizing. At the end both of them might have good intentions but they might be driven by emotions that leads to false ways of representing one's beliefs to the opponent.

I remember one of my shia teacher was driven by emotions while talking about karbala in one of the gatherings. One of my sunni teachers couldn't control his anger at the mistake which that shia teacher was making consistently, and at last the time came when the sunni teacher got up from his seat and politely but emotionally requested / warned the shia teacher to be careful about this mistake.

Guess what was the mistake ?!

It happened consistently that the shia teacher referred to the Prophet (r.a) as only "Mohammad" like "Mohammad did this and Mohammad did that" but when he used to speak of Hazrat Imam Hussain (r.a) every time he used to repeat the whole long term "Hazrat Imam Hussain Aleh Salam...................and so on" along with every sentence.

One of my friends told me that he was so impressed from shias that he once went to their gathering to listen to the lecture. But he was quite disappointed when the Imam said one wrong sentence (due to emotions) in the whole lecture. He was mentioning the incident in which the munafiqeen decided to put a living person in taboot (mummy?!) and then request Hazrat Ali (r.a) to offer his janaza. The plan was that after Hazrat Ali (r.a) finishes the Namaz-e-janaza, he would stand up and that would be (nauzubillah) a disgraceful joke on Hazrat Ali (r.a). But in reality when the janaza was finished, the man never woke up. The angel took away his soul during the janaza. ( as per the order of Allah (Swt) ofcourse).

IT was alright uptill this, but then due to emotions the Imam shouted:

" The one who is killed by Allah, he would rise on the day of judgment, but the one who is killed by Ali (a.s) will not even be able to rise on the day of judgment"

This sentence caused people to get excited and shout out allowed "Ya Ali Madad" but in fact my friend didn't like it, even though the intentions of the Imam might not be to compare Allah with Ali (r.a) (nauzubillah).

On the other hand I do feel that in a lot of occasions few sunni scholars do not do justice in describing the status of Ahle bait probably after being driven by emotions to prove shia scholars wrong and vice versa.

[zer01]

@psyah

Peace All

Every year I hear on the news that the anniversary of karbala is one of the most ‘religious’ events for Shi’a Muslims.

I can’t believe this to be true. Mouning or not mourning that seems to be a choice, but it can’t be a religious event which earns reward. Mourning a death or a tragedy is not a form of 'ibadah it is merely a reaction of how one feels within.

If this is truly a Shi’a belief please explain how or why mourning is considered a form of worship. If it is not then please correct these news readers.

Its a said thing that our sunni bretheran do not know what has been recorded in thir esteemed islamic books:

**1118 **-حدثنا أحمد بن إسرائيل قال : رأيت في كتاب أحمد بن محمد بن حنبل رحمه الله بخط يده : نا أسود بن عامر أبو عبد الرحمن قثنا الربيع بن منذر ، عن أبيه قال :كان حسين بن علي يقول : من دمعتا عيناه فينا دمعة ، أو قطرت عيناه فينا قطرة ، أثواه الله عز وجل الجنة.
الكتاب : فضائل الصحابة لأحمد بن حنبل

SOURCE (Scroll down to 1118)

Heres a rough translation of above text:

**"**Narrated on the authority of Ahmed bin Isra’el I read in the book of Ahmed bin Muhammed Bin Hanbal written by his own hand writting on the authority of Aswad Bin Amer Abu Abd Arrahman on the Authority of Al-Rubay3 Bin Munther on the authority of his father : that Imam Husain use to say: Whom so ever eyes cries a drop of tears on us , or sheds one drop of tears on us, Allah will reward him with PARADISE"

Moreover check the following article:

CLARIFICATION OF THE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT AZADARI (Mourning)

Some excerpts from the article:

**“Martyrdom of Husain kindles such a fire in the hearts of the believers which will never extinguish.” **

This tradition has surprised our respected brethren Abdur Ghaffar but its authenticity was supported by Bukhari in ‘Al Adab Al Mufrad ‘, Ibn Majah in his ‘ Sunan ‘in the chapter of Merits of Imam Hasan and Imam Husain (a.s.).

Hakim Neshapuri has related a tradition from Umme Fazl that once in her dream she saw the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.), whose limb got cut and fell in her lap. She related the dream to Holy Prophet (s.a.w.), He replied “You have seen a good dream. InshaAllah, Fatema will give birth to a child and you will upbring him.” Umme Fazl said soon after Fatema gave birth to Husain and I brought him up. Once I took him to Holy Prophet (s.a.w.). When the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) looked at me, his eyes were brimming with tears. When I inquired about the cause of tears. He replied: **“Jibrael had come to me and told me that after me, my Ummat will kill my son.” **I asked “Will it be this son?” He replied in the affirmative. Jibrael also brought reddish sand for me.” (Mustadrak Hakim, vol 3, pg 176)

Are not these three traditions enough to prove that Prophets, and Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) in particular, due to Divinely gifted knowledge were well-aware of the martyrdom of Imam Husain (a.s.). They were aggrieved and mourned for him.

**“O Prophet say that I do not ask of you any reward except the love for my kindred” **(Shura: 22) .

Hence according to this verse love of Prophet (s.a.), Ahlebait and Imam Husain (a.s.) is compulsory. And the best expression of love is to be pleased in the happiness of the beloved and to express grief at his sorrow. Hence mourning on Imam Husain (a.s.) for Muslims who believe in this Quranic verse is compulsory.

Factually speaking, it is highly surprising how can a Muslim dare to differ from clear injunctions of Quran and traditions and opine that act which is a part of belief is forbidden. It is really astonishing that how will this man face the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) and his Ahlebait on Quiyamat and how will he expect their intercession.

Is not there the story of Hazrat Yaqub (a.s.) in Quran? Who wept at the separation of his son Hazrat Yusuf (a.s.) for an age. So much so that he was blinded. While Hazrat Yusuf was not tormented by thirst, nor was he brutally killed, neither his sons were killed in his arms, his corpse was not trampled under the hoods of the horses, his tent was not set ablaze and even his women folk were not made captive.

Respected Sir Abdul Gaffar what you suggest that while following the practice of Hazrat Yaqub (a.s.) how much shall we mourn?

Before the event of Karbala the Holy Prophet (s.a.w.) often mourned for Imam Husain (a.s.). After the demise of Holy Prophet (s.a.w.), Janabe Fatema (s.a.) mourned for him so much that according to the narration of Ibne Sa’ad she was not seen smiling even for a day.

Imam Zainul Abedeen (a.s.) mourned for his father for his entire lifetime. Whenever a sheep was slaughtered and its head separated he used to say

“My father’s head was chopped off in the same manner. The son of the Prophet was slain in this way.”

[cricketplaya]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

Narrated 'Abdullah:
the Prophet said, "He who slaps his cheeks, tears his clothes and follows the ways and traditions of the Days of Ignorance is not one of us." [Bukhari]

Sayyidna Husain, Radi-Allahu anhu :: "My dear sister! I swear upon you that in case I die you shall not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor curse anyone for me or pray for your death." (Al-Kamil, ibn Kathir vol. 4 pg. 24)

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira that the** Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) observed: Two (things) are found among men which are tantamount to unbelief: slandering one's lineage and lamentation on the dead**. [Muslim]

Yaqub alaysalam, cried naturally,, he didn't cry like the jahil people of those times as described in above hadiths.

[zer01]

^ Before copy’n’pasting perhaps you should ask your ulema why your books contradict each other. Because there are traditions in sunni books which debunk what you’ve posted:

• When the situation of the Prophet worsened, Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing,‘I wish my mother had not given birth to me, and that if she had I wish that I had died before this day’
• When Prophet died Aysha got up beating her face with other women (click here)
• when Khalid bin Waleed died the women of Banu Mugheer indulged in seven days of mourning. They reddened their chests, wailed, food was distributed and elegies were recited. Umar did not place any prohibition on this mourning".
• When Omar heard of Nu’man ibn Muqrin’s death he beat his head and screamed, “O what a pity that Nu’man died”.
• "Rasulullah (s) was in a state where he was hitting his chest."Ibn Hajr Asqalani in the commentary of this tradition in Fathul Bari Volume 3 page 90 writes:“This Hadeeth demonstrates that it is permissible to bang your hand at a moment of distress”.

If hitting oneself is Haraam then what Fatwa do you have for the Prophet (s)? The Pillar of Shari’ah is himself hitting his chest and the personalities mentioned above, so if the Shi’a do the same, why are their actions Batil?

• After the Murder of uthman, Ayesha stepped out of her house and wept for Uthman, saying that he had been killed unjustly.Ammar Yasir said to her: “You were the one who used to incite people against him and now you are weeping”
• “Umm al Mo’mineen Hadhrath Ayesha called people to read elegies on her father’s death and she herself lamented”.

If lamentation and elegies were Haraam, then the Holy Prophet’s wife would not have acted thus. Will you be brave enough to issue a Bidah Fatwa against her?

• Hadhrath Nuh’s (as) original name was Abdul Ghafar, he was called Noah on account if his crying (Noha)

Sunni books of Tafseer state that Nuh (as) wept for a thousand years to attain the pleasure of Allah (swt) which is why he was called Nuh (as) that means crying with a loud voice.This means that while in a state of sorrow, one loses control over his emotions and in such circumstances he may even beat himself. Verily, the mourning of Hadhrath Nuh (as) is further proof of the legitimacy of mourning.

Imam of Ahl’ul Sunnah, Shaikh 'Abdul Qadir Jilani, in his famous book, “Ghanyatul Talibeen”, comments:

• “70,000 angels came to the grave of Husayn bin Ali after his martyrdom and they wept for him and will keep weeping unto the Day of Judgment.”

Sunni say that the Shi’a commit Bidah by mourning the tragedy of Husayn (as) every year, what Fatwa do they have upon these 70,000 angels that mourn Husayn (as) every day?

[cricketplaya]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

What you did there was copy'n'paste too...if you can provide non-answering-ansar sources ,that be good in English too.. and authentic sources, not history books and no translations by shias.

anyways,
the sunni scholars agree that beating oneself and crying over the past will not result to anything good. if that were the case we should be crying for the Prophets... I don't see any1 crying for our beloved Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). to establish a day or month of mourning is bidah no doubt. We shouldn't, because we know Allah has put them in the best of places. now if you want to believe you will get reward by crying for the shaheed, then so be it, Allah will not question me if I cried for Hussein (rad) or what I thought of Yazid..

[Ibn_Sadique]

@zer01

^ Before copy’n’pasting perhaps you should ask your ulema why your books contradict each other. Because there are traditions in sunni books which debunk what you’ve posted:

• When the situation of the Prophet worsened, Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing,‘I wish my mother had not given birth to me, and that if she had I wish that I had died before this day’
• When Prophet died Aysha got up beating her face with other women (click here)
• when Khalid bin Waleed died the women of Banu Mugheer indulged in seven days of mourning. They reddened their chests, wailed, food was distributed and elegies were recited. Umar did not place any prohibition on this mourning".
• When Omar heard of Nu’man ibn Muqrin’s death he beat his head and screamed, “O what a pity that Nu’man died”.
• "Rasulullah (s) was in a state where he was hitting his chest."Ibn Hajr Asqalani in the commentary of this tradition in Fathul Bari Volume 3 page 90 writes:“This Hadeeth demonstrates that it is permissible to bang your hand at a moment of distress”.

If hitting oneself is Haraam then what Fatwa do you have for the Prophet (s)? The Pillar of Shari’ah is himself hitting his chest and the personalities mentioned above, so if the Shi’a do the same, why are their actions Batil?
[/LIST]If lamentation and elegies were Haraam, then the Holy Prophet’s wife would not have acted thus. Will you be brave enough to issue a Bidah Fatwa against her?

What you are stating is immediate reaction of any human on hearing terrible news. This action ‘lasts’ for a few hours or so until the person comes out the initial shock. The action of Hz. Bilal (ra) and that of Hz. Aisha (ra) was the same after knowing of Prophet’s demise.

They did not make an annul ‘Chest beating and face slapping’ ritual/event!

Do you have any record of it being repeated every year from then on as a must ritual as practice by the 12ers?

Don’t tell me that you are following sunnah of Hz. Aisha (ra)!

Why not hold Mataam in honour of Prophet’s death as brother cricketplaya suggests?

[Das_Reich]

bro, i am not sure of the source of your information. We hve hosted over 50 speakers from all over the world here in UK and let me assure u....apart from the airfare, food and travel expenses, not a single speaker ever got more than few hundered ponds. we have had no speaker ever demand money and the sum given to em was completely at our discretion. If anything more then there has always been a present given as a token of appreciation which too is not of much value but rather more like a souvenier. Is this what you refering to when u say "a lot of business"?

brother you might do it with sincerity and perhaps there are others like you but I also speak from personal experience in Karachi pakistan, lucknow India and Chicago USA there are a lot of people who do it only for the money and their lives do not in anyway reflect the high moral values as preached by Hussain b ALi ...these people [zakireen] despite being nonpracticing muslims are highly regarded even by the elite amongst 12er communities even though they dont even know the basics of deen.
They charge a lakh [100.000 rupees] or more for 40min of majalis.... and even these majalis are riddled with inconsistencies and historical errors which even lay people like you & me can point out

[Das_Reich]

Re: What actually happened at Karbala

STP,
brother the present 12er sect of shias has many influences of earlier Ghali or exaggerrator sects of shias which proliferated after the death of Ali b Hussain Zayn Al abideen ale salam.....these people regarded Sayyidna ALi as the divine as well as thei other imams.
In due course of time these sects died out.
The present day 12ers have carefully edited out these beliefs to make their fiqah more in line with mainstream islam thats why techincally they cannot be called non-muslims.However there are certain aspects of their beliefs that can still be traced to these earlier sects.

[Dr.LuLworth]

@aownkaz

...... Later Mauwiya own son Yezid (may he rot in hell) led the battle at karbala, ......

Word.

[jaanaan]

@zer01

Its a said thing that our sunni bretheran do not know what has been recorded in thir esteemed islamic books:

**1118 **-حدثنا أحمد بن إسرائيل قال : رأيت في كتاب أحمد بن محمد بن حنبل رحمه الله بخط يده : نا أسود بن عامر أبو عبد الرحمن قثنا الربيع بن منذر ، عن أبيه قال :كان حسين بن علي يقول : من دمعتا عيناه فينا دمعة ، أو قطرت عيناه فينا قطرة ، أثواه الله عز وجل الجنة.
الكتاب : فضائل الصحابة لأحمد بن حنبل

SOURCE (Scroll down to 1118)

Heres a rough translation of above text:

**"**Narrated on the authority of Ahmed bin Isra’el I read in the book of Ahmed bin Muhammed Bin Hanbal written by his own hand writting on the authority of Aswad Bin Amer Abu Abd Arrahman on the Authority of Al-Rubay3 Bin Munther on the authority of his father : that Imam Husain use to say: Whom so ever eyes cries a drop of tears on us , or sheds one drop of tears on us, Allah will reward him with PARADISE"

how did the Imam know that the person who sheds a drop of tear for them will go to paradise? did he have a direct link with God who had told him so? if that is the reason than he should have been a Prophet.
or is it because he was the Prophet’s grandson who thought to cash his position by getting himself preferential treatment?

[Moonshiner]

I really don't know what the problem is. Maybe some Sunnis have some insecurity complexes that results from bad parental upbringing. I have seen Palestinian Sunnis do matam when I lived in Lebanon and I've seen Wahabis do matam when their terrorist leader Azam Tariq was killed.

What really is the problem.

And janaan, why did Allah make Ibrahim an Imam?

[zer01]

how did the Imam know that the person who sheds a drop of tear for them will go to paradise?

Imam (as) just told people what he heard from his grandfather. It is recorded by esteemed Islamic scholars that Prophet (s) was told by Jibrael that this grandson of his will be killed by his ummah. And Prophet (s) used to mourn for imam Hussain even when he (Imam) was alive and He (s) used to say*: 'whoever on the day of Ashura weeps for my son Husayn, Allah will place that person in paradise alongside the Ul'il Uzm Prophets. (*Allama Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his renowned book 'Isaba' Volume 1)

@Ibn_Sadique

What you are stating is ..............................

Don’t tell me that you are following sunnah of Hz. Aisha (ra)!

Why not hold Mataam in honour of Prophet’s death as brother cricketplaya suggests?

What I stated was a response to the traditions brother cricketplaya posted. Just to show him that those tradition do not hold any value because they contradict with other traditions in sunni books.

As for followin the sunna of bibi Aysha, In a sense YES! But for this porpous I have more authentic and reliable source to follow. And that is Nabi (s) and his Ahlebait(as). So dont get too excited :)

And it is a very wrong concept among sunnis that shia dont hold Prophet (s) as dear as they hold Imam Ali (as) or Imam Hussain (as).

The most respectable After Allah (swt) is the Prophet Mohammad (s). He is the center of shia mazahab. If there is no Nabuwat then there is no Imamat. The order of shia Usool-e-Deen also confirms that.

But Traditions like "Anna Mohammad wa Akhiro Muhammad, Hussain mini wa Ana Min'ul Hussain and Ali and Me were created from same noor" teach us that they are not apart from each other. If we love Prophet (s) then we have to love his AhleBait too. As ordered by Allah (swt) in Quran. (See Shura: 22)

And as for weeping for Imam Hussain even after 1400 year see my response to jaanaan and the taradition I posted above in arabic.