Was she a muslim???

[Lajawab]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

Read the last few posts again and again and maybe again then you might understand what we were discussing in the last few posts. If you still don’t get it come back and I will try to put it easy to understand, point form.

I did…And I found out that the command not to marry Mushrikeen came later…

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

So did the ayat menioned in the hadith

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Lajawab

I did...And I found out that the command not to marry Mushrikeen came later...

So did the ayat from the following hadith

**Volume 2, Book 23, Number 442:

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:

When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah's Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah's Apostle said to Abu Talib, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, "O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?" Allah's Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah') while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' (Then Allah's Apostle said, "I will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so." So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire ***(9.113).*

This ayat is from a madani sourah (soura-e-taubah), which means it was revealed while Prophet was in Madina, and Hz Abu Talib's death is a Makkie event meaning this ayat (mentioned in this hadith) was also revealed later.

[armughal]

Re: Was she a muslim???

^ so what is the problem if this verse was revealed in madinah????

Quran itself says that Ibrahim (as) was allowed to pray for his father for a while but stopped later....

maybe the same was for abu talib....
cuz of the close affection with his uncle, it wud have been harsh for the prophet (saw) if he was told at once not to pray for his uncle (as the verse says cuz he is a companion of fire), but after time when the sorrow had faded, the verse was sent....

N.B. i am not claiming this to be true, just trying to give a logical explanation....

[Lajawab]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

So did the ayat from the following hadith

**Volume 2, Book 23, Number 442:

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:

**When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah’s Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah’s Apostle said to Abu Talib, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, “O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?” Allah’s Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’) while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ (Then Allah’s Apostle said, “I will keep on asking Allah’s forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so.” So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).

This ayat is from a madani sourah (soura-e-taubah), which means it was revealed while Prophet was in Madina, and Hz Abu Talib’s death is a Makkie event meaning this ayat (mentioned in this hadith) was also revealed later.

Perhaps if you read the previous posts again and again and perhaps again, you might get an idea…

Remember the first Hadith I posted? It said that the Holy Prophet :saw: said: I will praying for Abu Talib till I am forbidden by Allah :swt:…

So he kept praying until he came to Madinah and Allah :swt: stopped him…

Do you fail to understand what’s going on?

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@armughal

^ so what is the problem if this verse was revealed in madinah????

Quran itself says that Ibrahim (as) was allowed to pray for his father for a while but stopped later....

maybe the same was for abu talib.... cuz of the close affection with his uncle, it wud have been harsh for the prophet (saw) if he was told at once not to pray for his uncle (as the verse says cuz he is a companion of fire), but after time when the sorrow had faded, the verse was sent....

N.B. i am not claiming this to be true, just trying to give a logical explanation....

OH man I can't keep explaining the same thing over and over again, point is the haidht clearly says at the time of Hz Abu Talib's death .... propeht said I will keep on asking for Allah's forgiveness... ayat revealed, and what I am claiming is that this hadith does not makesense choronologically as death occured in Makkah soura revealed in Madina so it couldn't ahve been revealed at the time of his death hadith is not reliable.

[Lajawab]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

OH man I can’t keep explaining the same thing over and over again, point is the haidht clearly says at the time of Hz Abu Talib’s death … propeht said I will keep on asking for Allah’s forgiveness… ayat revealed, and what I am claiming is that this hadith does not makesense choronologically as death occured in Makkah soura revealed in Madina so it couldn’t ahve been revealed at the time of his death hadith is not reliable.

Where in the Hadith does it say that the Ayah was revealed immediately? Or even a few days, weeks or months later?

It just says the Ayah was revealed later…It could be months, years…Who knows…

[armughal]

Re: Was she a muslim???

it wud not make sense if the surah was makki and abu talib died in madinah....
cuz that wud reverse the time....

but in the given case the verse was revealed AFTER the death of abu talib so why is there chronologically a problem????

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Lajawab

Where in the Hadith does it say that the Ayah was revealed immediately? Or even a few days, weeks or months later?

It just says the Ayah was revealed later...It could be months, years...Who knows...

Hadith doesnt say later, the wrods of the hadith are

"so allah revealed the ayat"

The haidht doesn't say that propeht said he will continue to pray for Hz Abu Talib's forgiveness (it doesnt say anywhere that he actually did) and so allah revealed the ayat, meaning in response to Propehts statement, (meaning then at that time) not in response to prophet praying for it for a few months, years and then allah finally decided that its about time, I have rejected my prophet's prayers for long enough now I should ask him to stop doing this dua altogether since I am not going to accept it.

[armughal]

Re: Was she a muslim???

^ or more like I have given him enuff time to get over the grief of his loved uncle so now better tell him straight that this is not allowed....

PLUS u r still assuming that this certain verse was not revealed in makkah, whereas the rest of the surah was revealed in madinah....

there r many example of such verses....

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@armughal

^ or more like I have given him enuff time to get over the grief of his loved uncle so now better tell him straight that this is not allowed....

PLUS u r still assuming that this certain verse was not revealed in makkah, whereas the rest of the surah was revealed in madinah....

there r many example of such verses....

You are making the same assumption about the ayat forbidding marragie with a kafir.

Second there are other points I raised like

@Curious One

The haidht doesn't say that propeht said he will continue to pray for Hz Abu Talib's forgiveness (it doesnt say anywhere that he actually did) and so allah revealed the ayat, meaning in response to Propehts statement, (meaning then at that time)

[armughal]

Re: Was she a muslim???

the word "so" is most probably translation of the arabic "fa" and "fa" is the ter used for those who slept 300 years as well....
so it does not necessarily have to be then and there....

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@armughal

the word "so" is most probably translation of the arabic "fa" and "fa" is the ter used for those who slept 300 years as well.... so it does not necessarily have to be then and there....

So it does not necessarily have to be later, and not right then and there.

[Lajawab]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

Hadith doesnt say later, the wrods of the hadith are

“so allah revealed the ayat”

The haidht doesn’t say that propeht said he will continue to pray for Hz Abu Talib’s forgiveness (it doesnt say anywhere that he actually did) and so allah revealed the ayat, meaning in response to Propehts statement, (meaning then at that time) not in response to prophet praying for it for a few months, years and then allah finally decided that its about time, I have rejected my prophet’s prayers for long enough now I should ask him to stop doing this dua altogether since I am not going to accept it.

“I was always afraid of flying, but I knew I had to. So I did.”

“I decided to eat Salan until I got sick of its taste and gave it up. So, I did give it up.”

“I could never afford a car so I decided to save money to buy one. So, I saved some money and bought one.”

In these three scenarios, do you see specifically if a timelene is mentioned? Whether it’s immediately or a few years later?

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

The fact that there are other ahaidths quoted by YSM in direct contradiction of the other ahadith, the narrator (musayab) was a kafir at the time of Hz Abu Talib's death, the chronology is under doubt as well, but you still insist on believing it, and making statements like

@armughal

so it does not necessarily have to be then and there....

even you are not sure that it was not later, yet you still insist on believing that hz Abu Talib was kafir.

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Lajawab

"I was always afraid of flying, but I knew I had to. So I did."

"I decided to eat Salan until I got sick of its taste and gave it up. So, I did give it up."

"I could never afford a car so I decided to save money to buy one. So, I saved some money and bought one."

In these three scenarios, do you see specifically if a timelene is mentioned? Whether it's immediately or a few years later?

My point exactly, it could go either way hence you cannot use this hadith as a basis to declare somebody kafir.

Specially since you have other ahadith proving otherwise, the narrator of the haidth in question is was kafir (at the time this event took place) the chronology doesnt make sense.

[Lajawab]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

My point exactly, it could go either way hence you cannot use this hadith as a basis to declare somebody kafir.

Specially since you have other ahadith proving otherwise, the narrator of the haidth in question is was kafir (at the time this event took place) the chronology doesnt make sense.

It makes all the sense in world…

Everone had questions about why some Ayahs were revealed and why a certain issue was addressed…In fact there is a Quranic Ayah which I had posted a little while ago:

(5:101) O ye who believe! ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur-an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Look at the underlined words…So, someone must have asked the Holy Prophet :saw: why the Ayah was revealed that Muslims cannot pray for the unbelievers…

Obviously, many of the Muslims had parents who died without becoming Muslims or were still non-believers…This was an issue that deeply troubled them…They would have asked…

Hence, the Holy Prophet :saw: would have explained that it was because he kept asking forgiveness for his dear uncle until he was forbidden and now Allah :swt: has forbidden him…

So that’s how the term “so allah revealed” came into the Hadith…

Does it make sense now?

[Captain1]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Miss ABC

A number of historians and hadith recorders reported that Abu Talib died while he was a pagan.Such false commentaries and statements were fabricated as a part of the smear campaign which the Omayyads and their allies waged against Imam Ali(AS).** By fabricating such traditions they tried these to convince people that Abu Sufyan, father of Muawiyyah was better than Abu Talib, father of** Imam Ali, claiming that Abu Sufyan died while he was a Muslim and Abu TAlib died while he was a pagan.

A classic case. Thats why I refuse to accept hadith which "praises" a particular person/sahabi "compared" to others, I refuse in discussions like "was ancestor of such and such Muslim", "will such and such go to jannah" etc. I leave all "judgements" for Allah swt and only take ahadith which are "rule binding" or explaination of some rule in Quran etc

[Curious_One]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Captain1

A classic case. Thats why I refuse to accept hadith which "praises" a particular person/sahabi "compared" to others, I refuse in discussions like "was ancestor of such and such Muslim", "will such and such go to jannah" etc. I leave all "judgements" for Allah swt and only take ahadith which are "rule binding" or explaination of some rule in Quran etc

If you don't even know who was muslim, who was trustworthy then how do you knwo who to take the hadith from??

LaJawwab, Armughal and I are aruging, debating, discussing, call it whatever you want, but atleast we are trying to come to a conclusion, and in the process learning more about islam as well.

[Captain1]

Re: Was she a muslim???

@Curious One

If you don’t even know who was muslim, who was trustworthy then how do you knwo who to take the hadith from??

How many ahadith did Hazrat Abu Talib’s wife narrate? How many were narrated by himself?
I asked you about timeline of their deaths, I don’t see your response to their death dates, how can we establish the “voidance of nikah” ruling in case of one spouse accepting Islam and one not?

LaJawwab, Armughal and I are aruging, debating, discussing, call it whatever you want, but atleast we are trying to come to a conclusion, and in the process learning more about islam as well.

Please go on, and once you guys are finished PLEASE do inform me of a “conclusion” that everyone agreed to and who changed their views because someone here presented “facts”, I’ll really appreciate that info. :k: