Re: Was she a muslim???
Excellently put Kaptaan Sahib…Except for the precisely mentioned ones, every Sahaba was the noblest of all generations…
Re: Was she a muslim???
009.113
**SHAKIR:** It is not (fit) for the Prophet and those who believe that they should ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they should be near relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are inmates of the flaming fire.
009.114
SHAKIR: And Ibrahim asking forgiveness for his sire was only owing to a promise which he had made to him; but when it became clear to him that he was an enemy of Allah, he declared himself to be clear of him; most surely Ibrahim was very tender-hearted forbearing.
Ok so lets look at these two ayats together,
9:113 Prophet had to be told by god to stop seeking forgiveness for his kafir uncle (as stated in the hadith) .
9:114 Ibrahim declared himself clear of his father when it became clear to him that his father was an enemy of Allah.
(One prophet had to be told, as apparently his love for his uncle was far greater than his love for God and his religion while with Ibrahim its the other way round)
Do you guys still want to insist that the above ayat 9:113 was revealed about Rasool Allah seeking forgiveness for Hz Abu Talib??
If so then for you Ibrahim should be of better character then Rasool Allah, but for me Rasool Allah would never do something that even Hz Ibrahim finds not suitable for himself.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Shibli Numani, in his most celebrated work on the Seera of the
Prophet, Siratun Nabi ( v 1, p 219 and 220 )
Death of Khadija and of Abu Talib
( 10th Year of Revelation )
On return from the mountain, the Prophet had hardly passed a few days
in peace when Abu Talib and Khadija both died. He paid his last visit
to Abu Talib when he was dying. Abu Jahl and Abd Allah ibn Ummaya were
already there. The Prophet asked Abu Talib to recite the credo of
Islam, so that he might bear witness to his faith in the presence of
Allah. Abu Jahl and Ibn Umayya expostulated with Abu Taleb and asked
if he was going to turn away from the religion of Abd Al Muttalib. In
the end Abu Talib said that he was dying with is belief in the
religion of Abd Al Muttalib. Then he turned to the Prophet and said
that he would have recited the creed but he feared lest the Quraish
should accuse him of fear of death. The Prophet said that he would be
praying to Allah for him till He forbade (Bukhari on the Chapter of
Funeral. The last sentence has been taken from Muslim and not
Bukhari). This is the version of Bukhari and Muslim. Ibn Ishaq says
that while dying Abu Talib's lips were in motion. al-Abbas who was
till then a nonbeliever, put his ear to his lips and then said to the
Prophet that he was reciting the KALIMA the Prophet had wanted of him.
( Ibn Hisham, Cairo Edition, p 146).
Then Shibli Numani further writes
But from a traditionist's point of view this report of Al Bukhari is
not worthy taking as reliable because the last narrator is Musaiyyab
who embraced Islam after the fall of Mecca, and was not himself
present at the time of Abu Talib's death. It is on this account that
al Aini in his commentary has remarked that this tradition is MURSAL
(Al Aini, Chapter Janaiz or Funeral, VOL IV, p 200 ).
Also he writes on page 221
Abu Talib made great sacrifices for the Prophet none can deny that. He
would even sacrifice his own children for his sake. For his sake he
had exposed himself to the odium of the whole country, and for his
sake he had passed years in state of siege, suffering starvation as an
exile, unprovided with food or drink. Will all this love, sacrifice
and devotion go unrewarded ?
asking God to forgive a deceased usually takes place at the time of the
funeral prayer. The wording of the verse ' It is not permissible to the
Prophet and the believers to ask God to forgive the pagans ' , indicates
that the Prophet was with other believers ( in a congregational prayer )
when he asked forgiveness for the pagans.as a matter of fact, the funeral prayer was not instituted before the
Hijrah (migration to Medina). The first prayer offered by the Messenger for
a deceased was his prayer for Al Bura Ibn Maarour.
it is likely that this verse was revealed after the Prophet offered a
funeral prayer for one of the hypocrites who used to pretend Islam and
conceal paganism. It is very likely that the verse was revealed when the
Holy Prophet ( saw ) offered a funeral prayer for Abdullah bin Obai bin
Salool who died during the ninth year and who was well noted in his
hypocrisy, his hatred towards the Messenger of Allah and his adversary to
the faith of Islam. About him and his followers, the Chapter of Al
Munafiqoon ( the Hypoctites ) was revealed before that time. Had historians
and hadith recorders thought with some depth and logic, they would not have
commited this terrible historical error !
Here is another hadeeth from Sahih Bukhari that mentions the event similar
to the previous hadeeth
Narrated Al Musaiyab : When Abu Talib was on his death bed, Allah's
Apostle same to him and found Abi Umaiya bin Al Mughira. Allah's
Apostle said : ' O uncle ! say : None has the right to be worshipped
except Allah, a sentence with which I will defend you before Allah. '
On that Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said to Abu Talib : '
Will now you leave the religion of Abdul Mutallaib ? ' Allah's apostle
kept on inviting him to say that senetnce while the other two kept on
repeating their sentence before him till Abu Talib said as a last
thing then he said to them , ' I am on the religion of Abdul Muttalib
' and refused to say : None has the righ to be worshipped except
Allah. On that Allah's Apostle said : ' By Allah I will keep on asking
Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden ( by Allah ) to do
so. So Allah revealed
It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they
should invoke ( Allah ) for forgiveness for pagans ( 9 : 113 )
And then Allah revealed especially about Abu Talib :
Verily ! You (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah
guides whom He will (28:56)
Sahih Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer
Arabic English
Volume 6 page 278-279
Tradition no. 295
Readers will be surprised to know that the two hadeeths cited above, prove
that the two verses descended one after the other. But this is contrary to
another hadeeth that Bukhari cites in his Sahih, and it proves that Surah
Baarat was among the last revealed chapters. Here is the hadith
Narrated Al Bara : The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a ...
Re: Was she a muslim???
Sahih Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer
Arabic English
Volume 6
Page 101 Tradition 129
Other Sunni references that affirm to the fact that Sura Baarat was among
the last revealed chapters and a Medanite Sura, please refer to
- Tafseer Kashshaf, v 2 p 49
- Tafseer Qurtubi, v 8 p 273
- Tafseer Itqan, v 1 p 18
- Tafseer Showkani, v 3 p 316
But where is the fault in the Hadeeths? The verse cited from Surah Qasas,
was revealed at least ten (10) years before Surah Baarat, and that it was
revealed in Mecca, where as Surah Baarat was revealed in Medina. Please
think about it, and you shall find out that in a futile effort to discredit
Abu Talib and declare him as an unbeliever, the order of the revelation of
the Quran was not taken into consideration. Just imagine the time gap in
between the revelation of the two chapters, and the matter will be very
clear.
Also history tells us that Al Musaiyab
- disliked Imam Ali
- refused to say the funeral prayers for the grandson of Imam Ali,
and the son of Imam Hussain, Imam Zainul Abidin
Sunni Reference
- Sharah of Ibn al Hadid, v 1 p 370
One could conclude that this fabrication was done to simply elevate Umayad
over Hashimites.
Also I came across a very ashtonishing commentary, by the most reverred
Sunni commentator, Fakr ar Din Al Razi in his Tafseer, with reference to
Surah Qasas (28:56). He has mentioned this verse about Abu Talib, * not *
because of his personal opinion; because of the opinion of some other
scholars '. Surprisingly, he admits, that this verse could not be
associated with Abu Talib's beliefs ...
Reference: Tafseer Kabir, v 25 p 3 ( Fakhr ar Din al Razi )
Re: Was she a muslim???
Now, in regards to the father of Hadhrat Ibrahim (as), it was NOT AZAR, that was his uncle. His father was Tarukh who was his Walid (father). Here is the evidence below for all those who claim that when was it made that a prophet's parents could not be non-muslims, hah, whoever believes that such a thing is possible is seriously misguided, read below:
Surah Al Anaam - Chapter VI - Verse 74
And when Ibrahim said to his sire, Azar : Do you take idle for
gods ? Surely I see you and your people in manifest error.
and Surah Al Tauba - Chapter IX - Verse 114
And Ibrahim asking forgiveness for his sire was only owing to
a promise that he made to him; but when it became clear to him
that he was an enemy of Allah, he declared himself to be clear
of him; most surely Ibrahim was very tenderhearted and forbearing.
In the above verses, the word ' Ab ' has been used for Azar. However, 'Ab'
has different meanings and does not necessarily mean 'Walid' (biological
father).
The Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) has said that the essence of his existence had
been transmitted and ultimately conveyed to his immediate parents through a
pure, a holy and sanctified progeny.
Now the word ' Ab ' in Arabic language may mean father as well as ancestor
or even uncle as Ishmael ( Ismail ) the uncle of Jacob ( Yaqoub ) has been
addressed as ' Ab ' in the following Quranic verse ...
Nay ! were you witnesses when death visited Yaqoub, when he said
to his sons : What will you serve after me ? They said : Well
will serve your God and the God of your fathers, Ibrahim and Ismail
and Ishaq, one God only, and to Him do we submit. 2 : 113 ]
Since Ishmael was not the father of Jacob, and yet Quran uses the word 'Ab'
for him as uncle, then the usage of this word for other than biological
father is established...
Besides Prophet Abraham prays for his biological father (Walid) along with
the other believers, which clearly indicates that his biological father was
not a polytheist. This is evident from the following Quranic verse ...
O our Lord ! grant me protection and my parents (Walidayn) and the
believers on the day when the reckoning shall come to pass. [14:41]
Now where does it say in the Qur'an that the father of Hadhrat Nabi Ibrahim al-Khalil-Allah (as) father was an idol worshipper by the name of Azar, when the same "'Ab" is used for Hadhrat Ismail (as) being addressed as 'Ab for Hadhrat Yaqub (as), yet he was not Hadhrat Yaqub (as) father, but he was his uncle.
Now you can definitely say that the man in the ayah of the 'Ab of Nabi Ibrahim Khalil-Allah (as) does not have to be his father, but rather is his uncle.
I challenge anyone to name for me any other of the Ambiya (alaiyhis-salaam) whose parents were non-believers through the Qur'an. armughal you've made that mistake before about Nabi Ibrahim (as), are you willing to make it again...?
Re: Was she a muslim???
Let me also ask these questions to everyone:
Who carried out the Nikkah Ceremony of Rasul-Allah (saws) to Bibi Khadijatul-Kubra (as)?
Do you believe that a non-believing idol-worshipper could carry out the Nikkah ceremony for Rasul-Allah (saws)?
Whoever has the answer, please answer them in order, first after the second, and give the answer clearly, don't go running around in circles.
Re: Was she a muslim???
No one carried out the Nikkah for Hz. Adam and Hz. Hawa :as:…
were they committing Zina?
It’s obvious, the commands for marriages came later…
Similarly, the Islamic way of marriage came later for Muslims…
And anyways, when the Holy Prophet :saw: was married to Bibi Khadija 
, Islam wasn’t even there then…They were married according the customs that was prevalent then…
Re: Was she a muslim???
The father of Ibrahim :as: was an enemy of Allah :swt: because he wanted to extinguish the life of a Prophet…Trying to extinguish the Message = Enemy of Allah :swt:…
The uncle of the Holy Prophet :saw: may have been a Kafir but he was supporting Islam by supporting the Holy Prophet :saw:…He was not an enemy of Allah…
Re: Was she a muslim???
[QUOTE]
Shibli Numani, in his most celebrated work on the Seera of the
Prophet, Siratun Nabi ( v 1, p 219 and 220 )
Death of Khadija and of Abu Talib
( 10th Year of Revelation )
On return from the mountain, the Prophet had hardly passed a few days
in peace when Abu Talib and Khadija both died. He paid his last visit
to Abu Talib when he was dying. Abu Jahl and Abd Allah ibn Ummaya were
already there. The Prophet asked Abu Talib to recite the credo of
Islam, so that he might bear witness to his faith in the presence of
Allah. Abu Jahl and Ibn Umayya expostulated with Abu Taleb and asked
if he was going to turn away from the religion of Abd Al Muttalib. In
the end Abu Talib said that he was dying with is belief in the
religion of Abd Al Muttalib. Then he turned to the Prophet and said
that he would have recited the creed but he feared lest the Quraish
should accuse him of fear of death. The Prophet said that he would be
praying to Allah for him till He forbade (Bukhari on the Chapter of
Funeral. The last sentence has been taken from Muslim and not
Bukhari). This is the version of Bukhari and Muslim. Ibn Ishaq says
that while dying Abu Talib's lips were in motion. al-Abbas who was
till then a nonbeliever, put his ear to his lips and then said to the
Prophet that he was reciting the KALIMA the Prophet had wanted of him.
( Ibn Hisham, Cairo Edition, p 146).
Then Shibli Numani further writes
But from a traditionist's point of view this report of Al Bukhari is
not worthy taking as reliable because the last narrator is Musaiyyab
who embraced Islam after the fall of Mecca, and was not himself
present at the time of Abu Talib's death. It is on this account that
al Aini in his commentary has remarked that this tradition is MURSAL
(Al Aini, Chapter Janaiz or Funeral, VOL IV, p 200 ).
Also he writes on page 221
Abu Talib made great sacrifices for the Prophet none can deny that. He
would even sacrifice his own children for his sake. For his sake he
had exposed himself to the odium of the whole country, and for his
sake he had passed years in state of siege, suffering starvation as an
exile, unprovided with food or drink. Will all this love, sacrifice
and devotion go unrewarded ?
asking God to forgive a deceased usually takes place at the time of the
funeral prayer. The wording of the verse ' It is not permissible to the
Prophet and the believers to ask God to forgive the pagans ' , indicates
that the Prophet was with other believers ( in a congregational prayer )
when he asked forgiveness for the pagans.as a matter of fact, the funeral prayer was not instituted before the
Hijrah (migration to Medina). The first prayer offered by the Messenger for
a deceased was his prayer for Al Bura Ibn Maarour.
it is likely that this verse was revealed after the Prophet offered a
funeral prayer for one of the hypocrites who used to pretend Islam and
conceal paganism. It is very likely that the verse was revealed when the
Holy Prophet ( saw ) offered a funeral prayer for Abdullah bin Obai bin
Salool who died during the ninth year and who was well noted in his
hypocrisy, his hatred towards the Messenger of Allah and his adversary to
the faith of Islam. About him and his followers, the Chapter of Al
Munafiqoon ( the Hypoctites ) was revealed before that time. Had historians
and hadith recorders thought with some depth and logic, they would not have
commited this terrible historical error !
[/QUOTE]
It is strange what logic Allama Shibli Naumani uses to disprove this Hadith of Bukhari.
How in the world can one say that forgiveness usually is asked at time of funeral prayer. Forgiveness can be asked and is ASKED at any time, after prayer,before prayer , in day / at night. He shud have come with a better logic.
Any how, i have actually read a narration in Seerat Ibn Hisham, which says that Abu Talib recited Kalima at his death bed.
However, this issue is of no religious significance to Sunnis, it is however of huge religious significance to shias. Coz they beleive that Ali ra is the distributor of heaven and hell. Its he whom will decide who goes to heaven and who to hell. While Allah will be a merely, overseeing the proceedings, putting all those verses of Quran that describe Almighty as the Malik of judgment day open to allegorical interpretation.
Re: Was she a muslim???
You know not what you speak of. Abu Talib (ra) arranged the marriage ceremony between Rasul-Allah (saws) and Bibi Khadijatul-Kubra (as). They were all on the religion of Hanif and as you must know would two young people on the religion of Hanif allow an idol worshipper to conduct their nikkah ceremony? You are denying an important aspect of those from Banu Hashim on the deen of Hanif.
Regardless of whether the proper Islamic commands for marriage came later, the fact remains that an idol worshipper could never be allowed to carry out the marriage ceremony of two believers. Or are you insinuating to me that Lady Khadija (as) and Rasul-Allah (saws), used to worship idols? Naudhubillah
Those customs you speak of did not involve any idolistic rituals or customs. Just as Rasul-Allah’s (saws) parents were married, it was according to the tradition kept in their family from the time of Hadhrat Ibrahim Khalil-Allah (as) passed down through Hadhrat Ismail (as) and so forth.
If you have studied anything on the genealogy of the prophet’s parents, you would know what you are talking about, but you do not as I can see very clearly.
Re: Was she a muslim???
How in the world can one say that forgiveness usually is asked at time of funeral prayer. Forgiveness can be asked and is ASKED at any time, after prayer,before prayer , in day / at night. He shud have come with a better logic.
Any how, i have actually read a narration in Seerat Ibn Hisham, which says that Abu Talib recited Kalima at his death bed.
However, this issue is of no religious significance to Sunnis, it is however of huge religious significance to shias. Coz they beleive that Ali ra is the distributor of heaven and hell. Its he whom will decide who goes to heaven and who to hell. While Allah will be a merely, overseeing the proceedings, putting all those verses of Quran that describe Almighty as the Malik of judgment day open to allegorical interpretation.
Your analysis of Shibli Nu'mani is quite premature. Salaatul-Janazah is the official period of asking for forgiveness, no one is saying that you can't ask for forgiveness before or after. The point is that Al-Musaiyab REFUSED to pray their Janazah prayers.
it is not a matter of if asking forgivenes for someone can be done before or after, it is the refusal that makes al-Musaiyab a questionable narrator.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Your commentary that Imam Ali (as) is the distributor of heaven and hell is again, radical interpretation and generalization of the Shi'a. The majority of them who are Ithna Ash'ari Shi'a do not believe that Ali is Allah Naudhubillah, or superior to Allah (swt)!!! Are you kidding me, that is like a small minute fraction, just like those among the sunni's there is a small faction who believe that it is not necessary to follow a school of thought and that people are allowed to individually carry out ijtihad, as this started in Andalusia by ibn Hazm, and later on such concepts were also held partially by ibn Taymiyya and bin Baaz, Al-Albaaaaaani., etc..
I think you are hung up on Shi'a vs. Sunni 24/7.
Re: Was she a muslim???
So you admit that there is the opinion amongst our Sunni scholars that Abu Talib (ra) did indeed recite the Kalima before he passed away.
Of course Sirat by ibn Hisham is just one source. I have named numerous others.
It is a point of importance for Sunni's as well because if it was important to Rasul-Allah (saws), then it is also important for us to know the truth.
Re: Was she a muslim???
it is not a matter of if asking forgivenes for someone can be done before or after, it is the refusal that makes al-Musaiyab a questionable narrator.
Where does the Hadeeth say that Al Musayeb refused to pray their Janazah? And how was he supposed in first place to pray Janazah for Abu Talib, when Allama Shibli says congregation prayers were started much later after death of Abu Talib. Perhaps you are not reading what you copy/paste.
[QUOTE]
Your commentary that Imam Ali (as) is the distributor of heaven and hell is again, radical interpretation and generalization of the Shi'a. The majority of them who are Ithna Ash'ari Shi'a do not believe that Ali is Allah Naudhubillah, or superior to Allah (swt)!!! Are you kidding me
[/QUOTE]
I did not say that Ithna Ashari beleive in Ali ra being Allah, i said they beleive that he is distributor of heaven and hell despite not being Allah.
[QUOTE]
So you admit that there is the opinion amongst our Sunni scholars that Abu Talib (ra) did indeed recite the Kalima before he passed away.
Of course Sirat by ibn Hisham is just one source. I have named numerous others.
It is a point of importance for Sunni's as well because if it was important to Rasul-Allah (saws), then it is also important for us to know the truth.
[/QUOTE]
Yes i do admit, their is difference of opinion, but it is of no significance to us, Allah is the judge.
Re: Was she a muslim???
This al-Musaiyab did not pray the Salatul Janazah for Imam Husayn my friend, it is not about praying Salatul Janazah for Abu Talib (ra). Possibly you became confused as to who is being referred to here.
By stating that someone is the distributor of heaven or hell, you are suggesting that a person has taken up the place of Allah (swt). When this is not the case. The mass majority of the Ithna Ashari Shi'a would never say that anyone is independent of Allah azza wa jaal.
It is of significance because as a Muslim, falsely accusing another Muslim of kufr is tantamount to making a place in the fire for yourself. As a Sunni, we should always be very careful in passing such judgements without seeing what is the truth or not. It is just the same as you and I accusing each other of kufr. And here we are talking about the father of Imam Ali (as), the uncle of Rasul-Allah (saws) who protected and raised and took care of him (saws). Do any of us have such a history to speak of to compare to? Not at all. So yes as a Sunni it is of a great deal of significance to us, and Allah is the All-Knowing, Al-Aware, Self-Subsisting.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Actually we don't. We believe that God will decide who goes to heaven and hell. Same as the Sunnis.
(I am Shia Ith nashari)