Re: Was she a muslim???
So why is he in the fire…
Re: Was she a muslim???
Classic example of twisting ones word. YSM clearly used the word “Even if we were to accept” meaning he doesn’t accept it and people are still asking why is he in fire then. 
YSM you are hitting your head against a brick wall.
Re: Was she a muslim???
A number of historians and hadith recorders reported that Abu Talib died
while he was a pagan.Such false commentaries and statements were fabricated as a part of the smear campaign which the Omayyads and their allies waged against Imam Ali(AS). By fabricating such traditions they tried these to convince people that Abu Sufyan, father of Muawiyyah was better than Abu Talib, father of
Imam Ali, claiming that Abu Sufyan died while he was a Muslim and Abu TAlib
died while he was a pagan.
Here is an hadeeth from Sahih Bukhari;
Narrated Al Musaiyab : When Abu Talib was on his death bed, Allah's
Apostle same to him and found Abi Umaiya bin Al Mughira. Allah's
Apostle said : ' O uncle ! say : None has the right to be worshipped
except Allah, a sentence with which I will defend you before Allah. '
On that Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said to Abu Talib : '
Will now you leave the religion of Abdul Mutallaib ? ' Allah's apostle
kept on inviting him to say that senetnce while the other two kept on
repeating their sentence before him till Abu Talib said as a last
thing then he said to them , ' I am on the religion of Abdul Muttalib
' and refused to say : None has the righ to be worshipped except
Allah. On that Allah's Apostle said : ' By Allah I will keep on asking
Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden ( by Allah ) to do
so. So Allah revealed
It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they
should invoke ( Allah ) for forgiveness for pagans ( 9 : 113 )
And then Allah revealed especially about Abu Talib :
Verily ! You ( O, Muhammad ) guide not whom you like, but Allah
guides whom He will (28:56)
Sahih Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer
Arabic English
Volume 6 page 278 -> 279
Tradition no. 295
But its interesting to know that the the hadeeth cited above, prove
that the two verses descended one after the other. But this is contrary to
another hadeeth that Bukhari cites in his Sahih, and it proves that Surah
Baarat was among the last revealed chapters. Here is the hadith
Narrated Al Bara : The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a ...
Sahih Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer
Arabic English
Volume 6
Page 101 Tradition 129
Other Sunni references that affirm to the fact that Sura Baarat was among
the last revealed chapters and a Medanite Sura, please refer to
- Tafseer Kashshaf, v 2 p 49
- Tafseer Qurtubi, v 8 p 273
- Tafseer Itqan, v 1 p 18
- Tafseer Showkani, v 3 p 316
But where is the fault in the Hadeeths? The verse cited from Surah Qasas,
was revealed at least ten (10) years before Surah Baarat, and that it was
revealed in Mecca, where as Surah Baarat was revealed in Medina. Please
think about it, and you shall find out that in a futile effort to discredit
Abu Talib and declare him as an unbeliever, the order of the revelation of
the Quran was not taken into consideration. Just imagine the time gap in
between the revelation of the two chapters, and the matter will be very
clear.
Re: Was she a muslim???
But its interesting to know that the two hadeeths cited above, prove that the two verses descended one after the other. But this is contrary to another hadeeth that Bukhari cites in his Sahih, and it proves that Surah Baarat was among the last revealed chapters. Here is the hadith Narrated Al Bara : The last Sura that was revealed was Bara'a ... Sahih Bukhari Kitabul Tafseer Arabic English Volume 6 Page 101 Tradition 129
Other Sunni references that affirm to the fact that Sura Baarat was among the last revealed chapters and a Medanite Sura, please refer to
- Tafseer Kashshaf, v 2 p 49
- Tafseer Qurtubi, v 8 p 273
- Tafseer Itqan, v 1 p 18
- Tafseer Showkani, v 3 p 316
But where is the fault in the Hadeeths? The verse cited from Surah Qasas, was revealed at least ten (10) years before Surah Baarat, and that it was revealed in Mecca, where as Surah Baarat was revealed in Medina. Please think about it, and you shall find out that in a futile effort to discredit Abu Talib and declare him as an unbeliever, the order of the revelation of the Quran was not taken into consideration. Just imagine the time gap in between the revelation of the two chapters, and the matter will be very clear.
Very interesting
Re: Was she a muslim???
umm excuse me but i have to say u guys are acting like “wanna bees scholars” trying to interpret hadiths on ur own…
he doesn’t accept it…
And he believes that since there is no statement stating that “he was not a kafir” therefore we conclude he wasn’t…
ok mr scholar.
honestly..
Re: Was she a muslim???
It doesnt matter that some people come to gupshup to divide muslims or try to lead them astray if that is infact their intent, Allahu Alam.
I find that when people ask me such questions, I learn a lot about islam in my research of the question. The more you learn about Islam, the more you understand why it is the beauty that it is, and why you should practise it to the best of your ability. It is indeed the perfect religion.
And being someone that has read over 7,000 hadith myself, mash'Allah, I know the great mistake in trying to interpret hadith on your own. It is a very grave error, regardless of what anyone here says. I cannot tell you the amount of times I have misinterpreted a hadith, or have read a hadith and found out a year later that it had a whole other paragraph that I never read the first time around. They are convenient to quote, but get some backround on it, whether it be through a scholar, a book, or by other means. This has nothing to do with the current topic, I am just pointing this out in general. I myself dont have an opinion on this topic as I havent researched it.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Exactly Munni. That is why those ahadith, in regards to Abu Talib (ra), I tried my best to show that there are major Sunni scholars who are of the opinion that Abu Talib (ra) was not a Kafir and that he died as a Muslim.
To sum up the points above as stated by brother Curious One and others:
Abu Talib cannot be a Kafir since Lady Fatima bint Asad (ra'a) was a Muslim and was married to Abu Talib (ra).
The hadith transmitted in regards to him does not anywhere state that he died in a state of kufr
The hadith shown with the narrator al-Musaiyab are highly questionable, since he was never present in the room durin Abu Talib's (ra) death, nor was he a Muslim, he was still an idol worshipper at that time
After Rasul-Allah (saws), al-Musaiyab was an opponent to Imam Ali (as) and refused to pray Salaatul-Janazah for him and also refused to pray Salaatul Janazah for Imam Husayn (as).
Rasul-Allah (saws) does not intercede on the behalf of a person who is a non-Muslim
In his "Sirat-An-Nabi", Allamah Shibli Nu'mani (a Sunni scholar) states that Abu Talib (ra) whispered the Kalima into the ear of al-Abbas (ra) before his death
The great Hadith Master** ibn Athir** says in his book Jam'u al-Usul:
"According to the Ahlul Bait, from among all the uncles of the Holy Prophet, only Hamza, Abbas, and Abu Talib accepted Islam."
- And the following other Sunni scholars declared that Abu Talib (ra) died in a state of Iman, not Kufr: ** Abu'l-Qasim Balkhi, and Abu Ja'far Askafi ** I am sure that many more evidences will surface, insha'Allah. For the time being, this suffices enough for me to say that there is a great deal of doubt when declaring that Abu Talib (ra) died in a state of Kufr.
Since some of you are hadith literalists here, please show me a hadith which emphatically declares that Abu Talib was not a Muslim or that he died as a Kafir.
Re: Was she a muslim???
I guess you are right akhi Curious One...people are hard headed, sometimes I guess the heart can become like a stone and we are trying to draw blood from it.
Curious One, Jazak-Allah khair.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Islam is about following the Quran and Sunnah…
If someone comes along tries to subtract something from it, there is none who can make us reject it…
And if someone comes along and tries to add something to it, there is none who can make us accept it…
And as long as there are Muslims of sound beliefs, you will not only be banging your head against a rock but against a wall of lead like the one built by Hz. Zulqarnain :as:, :insha:…
Your long posts that go against the Quran and Sunnah have no effect…Probably because Islam is so simple to folow…Just follow the Quran and Sunnah…Reject what conflicts and accept what doesn’t…
I used to do all that as a Barelvi…Mannat, niaz, peeri, mureedi, barsi, chaleeswan, duswaan, visiting graves, asking creations rather than Creator Himself e.t.c…
Got rid of all that nonsense after I found out how simple and straightforward Islam is…
You bring in these weird innovations and you’ll keep running into walls :insha:…
Re: Was she a muslim???
i dont know from where u ppl get such beliefs that parents of prophets cannot be non-believers....
Quran clearly gave us example of Ibrahim (as)....
and it is very clear that when Muhammad (saw) sought frogiveness of abu talib, Allah told him that like Ibrahim (as) was told not to ask forgiveness for his non-believing father, u too r not is a position to ask forgiveness for abu talib....
shiaas just cant swallow that Ali (ra)'s father was a non-muslim so they bring up useless discussions....
and if abu talib's wife accepted Islam, then we all know that abu talib died even before hijrah....
and if at that early stage such restrictions were imposed that anyone who accepts Islam has to break up with his/her spouse, then not many wud have entered Islam.....
that is why many farayedh and restrictions came only after hijrah....
when did the rule that muslim cannot marry a non-muslim come in to effect????
the Quranic verse which forbids muslims from marrying mushrikeen is in surah al-noor which is a madani surah....
Re: Was she a muslim???
This little piece of info explains so much…
Not from scholars, not from random books, not from any other source except the Quran itself…From the Quran…
But will they accept something from the Quran?
Heck no…Up pops the browser, and then we’d have a quotes from various books, various scholars, various sources all trying to prove that what’s in the Quran is not better than what we have…
I guess seome sects of Islam believe the sources to be more important than Quran and Sunnah…
What can we do?
Re: Was she a muslim???
bhaiyon, debate civilly. There is no reason to go into sarcasm mode in a pretty knowledgable discussion. you reduce the efficacy of your own well thought out points when you mingle in extraneous sarcastic point scoring.
clearly none of the sunnies here are of maturidi persuasion like sultan e madina, but if we cannot talk about such an issue within a sect without resorting to insults and rolling eyes etc, what can we hope to accomplish across sects? as for those who suggest hes a shia masquerading as a sunni because he uses A.S. have you any idea how stupid a person would have to be in order to do pose as a sunni and yet say something so obviously out of the norm? He consistently uses Imam and A.S., what kind of a masquerade is that? Do the rest of his posts correspond with the unbelievable dullness required to imitate the sunni you're used to seeing and say imam and A.S. etc?
for instance armughal raises a very valid point, but i doubt it will be addressed now, thanks to the mudslingings thats been initiated.
just make your points and dont resort to barbs and side attacks, because the latter are indication of lack of confidence, IMO. i am a reader of this discusison, and i'd like to keep on seeing things resolved.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Here are some Other Ahadith from Sahih Muslim regarding the Sunni view on Abu Talib's conversion...
Chapter 88: **INTERCESSION OF THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH (MAY PEACE BE UPON HIM) FOR ABU TALIB AND SOME REMISSION FOR HIM ON THIS ACCOUNT
Book 001, Number 0408:****
It is reported on the authority of 'Abbas b. Abd al-Muttalib that he said: Messenger of Allah, have you benefited Abu Talib in any way for he defended you and was fervent in your defence? The Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) said: Yes; he would be in the most shallow part of the Fire: and but for me he would have been in the lowest part of Hell.
Book 001, Number 0409:
Abdullah b. al-Harith reported: I heard Abbas say: I said: Messenger of Allah, verily Abu Talib defended you and helped you; would it be beneficial for him? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Yes; I found him in the lowest part of the Fire and I brought him to the shallow part.
Book 001, Number 0410:
This hadith is narrated from the Apostle (may peace be upon him) like one narrated by Abu 'Uwana on the authority of the chain of transmitters like Muhammad b. Hatim, Yahya b. Sa'id, Abu Sufyan, 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib and others.
Book 001, Number 0411:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported: A mention was made of his uncle Abu Talib before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) He said: My intercession may benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and he may be placed in the shallow part of the Fire which would reach his ankles and his brain would be boiling.
Book 001, Number 0412:
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported: Verily, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: The least tormented of the inhabitants of the Fire would be he who would wear two shoes of Fire and his brain would boil on account of the heat of the shoes.
Book 001, Number 0413:
Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Among the inhabitants of the Fire Abu Talib would have the least suffering, and he would be wearing two shoes (of Fire) which would boil his brain.
Book 001, Number 0414:
Nu'man b. Bashir was delivering an address and saying: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: the least suffering for the inhabitants of Hell on the Day of Resurrection would be for the man under whose soles would be placed two embers and his brain would boil on account of them.
Book 001, Number 0415:
Nu'man b. Bashir reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Verily the least suffering for the inhabitants of Fire would be for him who would have two shoes and two laces of Fire (on his feet), and with these would boil his brain as boils the cooking vessel, and he would think that he would not see anyone in a more grievous torment than him, whereas he would be in the least torment.**
Re: Was she a muslim???
Good point (and I'll be 100% honest here that this is the kind of response which is logical well thougth out that I am expecting) and I accept that my point about marriage of Janab-e-Fatima Binte Asad and Hz Abu Talib is invalid in light of your response (and thanks for giving me that info as I was not aware of this) however it only renders my logic as invalid. It doesn't prove that Hz Abu Talib was not a muslim.
Can you do me a favor and apply the same test to this hadith
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 442:
**Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:
When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah's Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah's Apostle said to Abu Talib, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, "O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?" Allah's Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah') while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' (Then Allah's Apostle said, "I will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so." So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113). **
Soura Taubeh is also a madani sorrah and Hz Abu Talib Died in Makkah so I wonder how this ayat was revealed at the time of Hz Abu Talib's Death.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Because, parts of some Madani sura's were revealed in Makkah and vice versa.
Re: Was she a muslim???
^but then that would invalidate armughal's point too. you cannot question chronology on that basis in one case but not the other.
Re: Was she a muslim???
It does not, because, marriage of Fatima Binte Asad and Abu Talib, happened even prior to any Surah was revealed, whether Makki or Madani.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Yes but Rasool Allah should have acted upont it and not permit Janab-e-Fatima Binte Asad to remain in her nikkah.
Re: Was she a muslim???
Things were revealed as time progressed my friend…
Hz. Adam and Hawa were not married…
Drinking was not immediately prohibitted…
The command to not marry Mushrikeen came later…
How hard is that?
Re: Was she a muslim???
Hz. Adam and Hawa were not married...
Drinking was not immediately prohibitted...
The command to not marry Mushrikeen came later...
How hard is that?
Read the last few posts again and again and maybe again then you might understand what we were discussing in the last few posts. If you still don't get it come back and I will try to put it easy to understand, point form.