Was she a muslim???

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Was she a muslim???

Ya_Sultan_e_Madeena!

Are you saying that the Ahadeeth that are described in Bukhari that Abu Talib died without accepting Islam and without accepting Prophethood of Mohammad pbuh, are not correct.

I have no intention to get into the debate going on here, as i agree with captain1, that this is none of our business. We are no body to judge anyone.

But i feel that you are not really Sunni, you are just trying to pose as one.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

If that was really the case then marjority of muslims won't insist on believing that Hz Abu Talib was not muslim.

i lost
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Re: Was she a muslim???

Iconoclast,

That may be what you think, but you are mistaken. I am from Ahl’ as-Sunnah wa’l Jama’ah and have been all of my life. What you need to know is that even books of hadith have been tampered with, and yes this is what I am saying. You may read this here, from one of our own Sunni scholars’ perspective my friend:

There is a silent committal of the matter to Allah Most High among the highest-adab authorities of the last two centuries and they tend to accept the view of the Mufti of Makka and Shaykh al-Islam, Sayyid Ahmad Zayni Dahlan in his precious book Asna al-Matalib fi Najat Abi Talib - “The Purest Claims of the Salvation of Abu Talib” (Cairo: Muhammad Effendi Mustafa, 1305/1886).
Their main argument is that Abu Talib’s positions and sayings regarding the Holy Prophet http://mac.abc.se/%7Eonesr/f/_elmts/durood.gif upon him peace, constitute a long string of confirmations of his Prophetic status. He foretold his high status even before Nubuwwa, at his wedding with our Mother Khadijat al-Kubra, Allah be well-pleased with her. He helped him like no one else did. He said to him: “By the falling stars! You never once lied to me” and pressured the Quraysh until they rescinded their 3-year embargo of the Muslims in Makka and annulled their pact. On this occasion Abu Talib is related to have said: Did the news not reach you that the charter was torn to pieces And that everything Allah dislikes is destined to ruin?Narrated mursal from al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar (d. 256) by Ibn Asakir in Tarikh Dimashq (66:320) and without chain by Ibn Is-haq (#209) and, through him, Ibn Hisham (2:222) cf. Istiab (2:660), Bidaya (3:97), Khasa’is (1:251), Iktifa’ (1:271). This is one of six verses spoken by Abu Talib at the time. Our teacher Shaykh Abd al-Hadi al-Kharsa said that a proof for Abu Talib's salvation is in the words of the Prophet [http://mac.abc.se/%7Eonesr/f/_elmts/durood.gif](http://mac.abc.se/%7Eonesr/f/_elmts/durood.gif) upon him peace - that he interceded for him to be in a shallow level of Hellfire [in al-Bukhari and Muslim] whereas Allah Most High said of the unbelievers {The mediation of no mediators will avail them then} (74:48). However, it can be answered that the verse is excepted (muqayyad) in the first place by the fact that the first, general intercession of the Prophet [http://mac.abc.se/%7Eonesr/f/_elmts/durood.gif](http://mac.abc.se/%7Eonesr/f/_elmts/durood.gif) upon him peace - for mankind at the universal Station (al-Maqam), on the Day of Judgment, includes the disbelievers. So does his ulterior intercession for the lessening of their eternal punishment in the Fire. It is also related that some of the Ashari Imams such as al-Qurtubi, al-Subki, and al-Sharani said that Abu Talib was saved, according to Sayyid Ahmad Zayni Dahlan who cites Imam al-Suhaymi and the Hanafi Mufti of Makka Shaykh Ahmad ibn Abd Allah al-Mirghani to that effect. They mention, among other evidence, the narration from al-Abbas ibn Abd al-Muttalib by Ibn Sad in his Tabaqat (1:118): Affan ibn Muslim told us: Hammad ibn Salama told us: From Thabit [ibn Aslam al-Bunani]: From Ishaq ibn Abd Allah ibn al-Harith [ibn Nawfal] who said: al-Abbas said: "I said: ‘Messenger of Allah, do you hope anything for Abu Talib?’ He replied: ‘I hope for everything good * from my Lord.’"The above narrators are all trustworthy and their transmission is sound, except Further, al-Qurtubi in his Tafsir (for verses 6:26 and 9:53) and Ibn al-Subki in Tabaqat al-Shafi`iyya al-Kubra (1:91-94) hold different positions than those ascribed to them above.

It is clear from a SUNNI perspective brother, that there were many 'Ulema who stated clearly that Abu Talib was not a kafir, as Mufti Sayyid Ahmed Dahlan of Makkah Mukarramah also stated the same position.

So how is it that this is a position outside of Sunni Islam, when the Mufti of Makkah in the 19th century was of this position and wrote an entire book in support of this view?*

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Re: Was she a muslim???

[QUOTE]
That may be what you think, but you are mistaken. I am from Ahl' as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah and have been all of my life. What you need to know is that even books of hadith have been tampered with, and yes this is what I am saying.
[/QUOTE]

Thats very interesting statement coming from a Sunni. Ofcourse, this argument is used both by shias and sunnis and in itself is of no use. Some sunni groups have also rejected some of the Ahadeeth in Bukhari, which they think go against Khulafa-e-Rashideen or Ummahatul Muslimeen, who give special status to Ali ra.

However, what makes me suspicious about your claim is that,
one- i asked you which Faqeeh/Tareeqa/Aalim you follow and you have evaded this question
second- you wrote in another thread to Ib Sadique, that you do not commit Rafd(cursing) upon first three Caliphs. This is not the view of any Sunni group i have known so far. All sunnis consider them rightful Caliphs, able and most appropriate people to be Caliphs at their time. But it appears from your statement that you consider Ali ra shud'have been the first Caliph.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

Ya_Sultan_e_Madina, you repeatedly use the term "Sayyidina Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as)" in this thread. No Sunni that I have ever heard of used these honourifics to describe Khalifah and Amir-ul-Mumineen Hazrat Ali Ibn Abu Talib, May Allah Be Pleased With Him.

I accuse you of masquerading.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

Nice attempt to divert the discussion, or maybe not.

Either way can we get back to the question I had raised?? and people who are so keen on finding out what sect YSM follows can answer this for me.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

He is either Shia in Sunni disguise or hadith rejecter, very clear from his posts.

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just because he does not believe all the hadiths to be authentic he is a hadith rejecter? lol give me a break

Most embarrassing thing you ever did.....
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Re: Was she a muslim???

I have an (honest) question. Suppose you came accross a hadith in Sahih Bukhari that contradicted the Quran. Would you commit to being Sunni but reject that hadith, or would you stray away from being Sunni altogether?

WaSalaam

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Re: Was she a muslim???


Curious one, can you give us timeline of who died when? I don't remember dates of Hazrat Abu Talib and his wife's death.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

Jazak-Allah khair to all the brothers who backed me up, brother Sheraz CT, brother Sadiqhassan, and Brother Curious One, May Allah (swt) reward you all for standing in defense of the family of Sayyidina Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) and Sayyidina Rasul-Allah (saws).

In regards to the one who questions my respect for all four of the Khulafa ar-Rashidin, I have previously given my answer to this in that same thread to which you are referring to. I told you clearly that I am Maturidi in Aqidah and Hanafi in Islamic jurisprudence.

I am not Ahl' al-Qur'an or Ahlul-Hadith or Salafi or Wahhabi, gentlemen I am far from those things. Let me ask all of you finger pointers out there,

Just because a Sunni loves and respects the parents of Imam Ali (as) and Rasul-Allah (saws), they are immediately branded as a Shi'a or hadith rejecter? Then you are so caught up in trying to pinpoint a sect on me when teh truth is that none of you can!

Sayyidina means leiglord. This title applies to all of the Khulafa ar-Rashidin and is used commonly by Sunnis not only in India and Pakistan to which your mindset seems to be limited to, but from Morocco to Syria to Uzbekistan. You can show enmity and hate towards me and accuse me of this and that, but the truth remains certain.

Yes I said clearly that committing Rafd on the Ashab al-Kiram is wrong. That is why I said to you that anyone who does it is outside the pale of Islam.

At the same time, any Sunni who disrespects the Ahl' al-Bayt and the parents or Rasul-Allah (saws) and the two people who raised him (saws), what do you think that makes you?

Let me show you, what the hadith says about Abu Talib (ra):

Abu Sa‘id Al-Khudri narrated that he heard the Prophet [pbuh] say, when the mention of his uncle was made, "I hope that my intercession may avail him, and he be placed in a shallow fire that rises up only to his heels." [Bukhari 1:548]

So now that we see that the Prophet is interceding on the behalf of Abu Talib (ra), who here dares to say that Abu Talib (ra) was a kafir?!

Even if we were to accept this hadith as narrated by Bukhari and in a different variation by Muslim, nowhere in this hadith does it state that Abu Talib (ra) died as a Kafir. Furthermore, Abu Talib (ra) is receiving the intercession of Rasul-Allah (saws).

So now let me ask you a question. Do kafirs receive the intercession of Rasul-Allah (saws)?

Once again, thank you for the insults from all the people who don't have anything constructive to provide and instead decide to use insults and name calling to look like they are an authority of the subject at hand when the reality is that their lack of knowledge makes them arrogant so as to go around calling names to others, Masha'Allah.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

Yeah sunnis use Allesalam only for prophets annd angels and not for sahabas and khalifas.All the sunis used raziallahutallah anha/anhu for sahabis.so brother Ya_Sultan_e_Madina you didnot reply to this

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Re: Was she a muslim???

More sources from Sunni scholars:

The great Hadith Master ibn Athir says in his book Jam'u al-Usul:

"According to the Ahlul Bait, from among all the uncles of the Holy Prophet, only Hamza, Abbas, and Abu Talib accepted Islam."

Here are more early Sunni 'Ulama who accepted that Abu Talib (ra) died as a Muslim:

Abu'l-Qasim Balkhi
Abu Ja'far Askafi

They hold the belief that Abu Talib (ra) did not reveal his true belief so that he could give full support to the Rasul-Allah (saws) infront of other Makkan Chieftans, and because of his, Abu Talib's (ra), influence, the opponents of Rasul-Allah (saws) would not block his way.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

Additionally, the author of the well renowned book Sirat-An-Nabi, Allamah Shibli Nu'mani also believed that Abu Talib was a Believer and he recited the Kalima at the time of his death in presence of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) into the ears of Al Abbas.

He also disregarded the narrations of Muslim and Bukhari as being unreliable because their narrator was not only a Kafir himself at the time when he allegedly witnessed this event, but states that he was actually not even present in the room with the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), Abu Talib and the Prophet’s uncles and therefore, this tradition is "not worth taking as reliable".

Here is the excerpt from Allamah Shibli Nu'mani's book Sirat-An-Nabi, from Vol 1. "Death of Khadija and Abu Talib" P. 223-224:

“The Prophet asked Abu Talib to recite the credo of Islam La illa ha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah, so that he might bear witness to his faith in the presence of Allah (SWT). Abu Jahil and Ibn Umayya expostulated with Abu Talib and asked if he was going to turn away from the religion of Abd al-Muttalib. In the end, Abu Talib said he was dying with his belief in the religion of Abd al Muttalib. Then he turned to the Prophet (S) and said that he would have recited that creed, but he feared lest the Quraish should accuse him of the fear of death. The Prophet (S) said that he would be praying to Allah for him till He forbade. This is the version of Al Bukhari and Muslim. Ibn Ishaq says that while dying Abu Talib's lips were in motion. Abbas, who still then a non-believer put his ears to his lips and said to the Prophet (S) that he was reciting the KALIMA the Prophet (S) had wanted of him. It is on account of these conflicting reports that there is such a difference of opinion regarding the Islam of Abu Talib. But as the version of Al Bukhari is generally considered to be more trustworthy, the traditionalists hold him to have died an unbeliever.

But from a traditionalist point of view, this report of Al Bukhari is not worth taking as reliable because the last narrator is Musaiyyab who embraced Islam after the fall of Mecca and was not himself present at the time of Abu Talib's death. It is on this account that Al Aini, in his commentary has remarked that this tradition is mursal.” (Nu’mani, Sirat-An-Nabi, Vol.1 p.224)

Additionally, Abdul Muttalib was the Holy Prophet’s grandfather, so even if Abu Talib died on the religion of Abdul Muttalib, that still does not prove that he died an unbeliever. The author of Tafsir Uthmani also backed this belief, that all of the fathers of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) were Believers. He wrote regarding the verse "And rely on the Almighty, the Merciful, Who sees you when you rise up, and your descending (lit. "taking turns") among those who fall prostrate in worship (sajidin)."(26:217-219):
"Some of the earlier writers have said that in this verse sajidin represents the fathers of the Holy Prophet (s), that is, the translation * of the Light of the Last Messenger (s) from one prophet to the other prophet culminating in the external appearance of the Prophet (s) in this world of matter. The scholars said by this verse the Iman of both of the Prophet's parents is confirmed.” (Uthmani, Tafsir Uthmani, Vol.2, p. 1657)
Mawlana Shaykh Ahmad ben Sadek, the Grand Muhaddith of Morocco wrote that the Dajjal will descend from the Bani Israel, who claim superiority to the Messenger of Allah and his ancestors due to their relation to other Prophets from their tribe. Additionally, we find in the books of the Ulema of Ahlus Sunnah, Sayyidina Ali (Rad)’s comments about the Khwarij, “the last of them will fight on the side of the Antichrist” (ie. they will side with the Bani Israel over the Bani Hashim, whose Imam will be Imam Al Mahdi). Therefore, it is better and more safe to give the family and ancestors of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) preference to the Bani Israel.

Hence, in our view, the more appropriate view is that Abu Talib was a Believer as were all of the ancestors of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), including Abdul Muttalib. If the Bani Israel (Sons of Yaqub) (peace be upon him) followed the religion of their ‘ancestor’ Ibrahim (peace be upon him) as they told their father Yaqub (AS) at the time of his death, so too did the descendents of Hashim who were the direct ancestors of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Seal and Imam of all Prophets.

Source:
Sirat-An-Nabi (The Life of the Prophet), by Allamah Shibli Nu'mani, rendered into English by M. Tayyib Budayuni. Rightway Publications, New Delhi, India. From Vol 1. "Death of Khadija and Abu Talib" P. 223-224.

Tafsir Uthmani, Allama Shabbir Ahmad Uthmani, trans. Muhammad Ashfaq Ahmad (Bombay: Taj Publishers, 1992) vol. 2, p. 1657.*

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Re: Was she a muslim???

So what are you trying to say, that I said that Sayyidina Ali ibn Abi Talib (as) is a Prophet or an Angel? What goes through you people's heads, you are nothing but rapped up in suspicion.

So listen here, you can say alaiyhis-salaam (as) upon bibi Maryam (as), the mother of Isa (as). Sunni's can say Alaiyhis-salaam upon the Mother of Humanity Hawa (as). You can say alaiyhis-salaam for them? What makes you think that you cannot say alaiyhis-salaam for the ahlul-bayt!?

You need to clarify something for yourself, the ahlul-bayt are companions too yes, but guess what, they are ahlul bayt, as even Sayyidina Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (ra) stated that he loves the Prophet's (saws) family more than his own famliy. If you want to fight over linguistics, I am ready, beacuse alaiyhis-salaam means upon whom be peace. Like I said, alaiyhis-salaam by Muslims throughout the world. Just because you think that they don't make it it true.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

I say the Abu Talib died as a Kafir, though he is respected by me as a caretaker and Guardian of my Dear Prophet :saw:, he did not accept Islam…

**Volume 2, Book 23, Number 442:

Narrated Said bin Al-Musaiyab from his father:

When the time of the death of Abu Talib approached, Allah's Apostle went to him and found Abu Jahl bin Hisham and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya bin Al-Mughira by his side. Allah's Apostle said to Abu Talib, "O uncle! Say: None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, a sentence with which I shall be a witness (i.e. argue) for you before Allah. Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah bin Abi Umaiya said, "O Abu Talib! Are you going to denounce the religion of Abdul Muttalib?" Allah's Apostle kept on inviting Abu Talib to say it (i.e. 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah') while they (Abu Jahl and Abdullah) kept on repeating their statement till Abu Talib said as his last statement that he was on the religion of Abdul Muttalib and refused to say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' (Then Allah's Apostle said, "I will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so." So Allah revealed (the verse) concerning him (i.e. It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe that they should invoke (Allah) for forgiveness for pagans even though they be of kin, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of the fire (9.113).

**

So, you would accept one vague Hadith (Prophet are alive in their graves) which conflicts and contradicts with the Quran and is not in either Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim, because it supports your skewed views, yet you would not accept a Hadith from the Sahih Bukhari, which even displayes the Ayah in the Quran which was revealed for this specific reason…

What kind of beliefs do you have? This is the second time you have brought up something which supercedes the Quran…

Look at the underlined Ayah…Read the Hadith and realize upon what occassion that Ayah was sent…It was sent precisely because the Holy Prophet :saw: was making Dua for Abu Talib who died on Kufr and Allah :swt: forbade the Holy Prophet :saw: from making anymore Dua ofr the Kuffar, even if they be kin…

Read the underlined portion again…Your views are as so weird man…

OK, forget Abu Talib…

What faith did the Holy Prophet (saw)'s father die upon…Barelvis believe he died as a Muslim too…lol

So, what do you believe?

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Re: Was she a muslim???

YES

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Re: Was she a muslim???


*

So the prophet wanted to seek forgiveness for a kafir, and only stopped because God forbid him too, otherwise the religon itself wasn't important to Prophet, what was important was to seek forgiveness for someone that was a kafir.

Brother my Rasool would never seek forgiveness for a kafir, and if you believe he would forget about others you need to set your aqeedah straight about the prophet before you get into debates about who was muslim and who wasn't.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

The bottom line for Lajawab is thus - the one narrator of that hadith to which you claim that Abu Talib (ra) was a Kafir, whose name is al-Musaiyab, was a Kafir at the time that this event took place and was not even present in the room when Abu Talib (ra) passed away.

Allamah Shibli Nu'mani clearly states this in his Sirat un-Nabi.

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Re: Was she a muslim???

LAJWAAB the problem with your argument is that what you have stated was already addressed by Ya Sultan-e-Madina yet you repead it without even stating why is his argument not acceptible to you.

Her provided proof with reference where as you just repeated what he had already proved was wrong approach.

If you want to contribute or prove that his logic was in accruate that is well n good, but atleast use soem logic give reasons (along with references) why the narrator is reliable (which he alredy proved isnt).

Answer the issues that were rasied like why did Rasool Allah let Janab-e-Fatima Bint-e-Asad remain married to a Kafir when quran prohibits it. Did he not follow islam??

And when you are stating that propeht was seeking forgiveness for a kafir, then please also clarify how does that prophet superiod to someone for who is so islam loving that he is willing to sacrifice his family for islam.

Can you please address all these issues.

thanks.