Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

[ravage]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

pinstripe/tnwb, i've removed some of your posts from the discussion, please lay off the insults.

[Pinstripe_Danda]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Urdu is still spoken better in India that in Pakistan. Go to the literary societies in north india and UP, it is no different from the courts back in the day.

It has fallen out of favor because it is not a language that is adaptable. Like Sankskrit. It has derivations that are morewidely spoken in the subcontinent.

If urdu as a state language in India during the mughal times couldn't last and become the language of the masses, how do think it will do when you have people with strong regional languages for it to compete with. you could have 10,000 graduates a year...urdu as spoken on the Pak news channels will never be the lingua franca of the people. Just as the hindi spoken on doordarshan will never be the language people adopt as their tongue of choice. Too much heterogenaity.

[TheNewWannaBe]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

ravage, why did you remove? Let them talk the way they are taught to and let the world know what they are like from inside but show casing smiles and persistantly offerring a hand of 'friendship'. It only further proves my point that they are filthy by nature.

If you keep editing how they talk, how else will the world know about them?

[SugarFree]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

I am taking an advanced Statistics course this semester. Using statistical analysis we can find out if Hindi and Urdu are different. Below I have described how we can carry out an experiment to test this hypothesis.

We select a random sample of 100 Pakistanis who can read, write and understand Urdu. We also select a random sample of 100 Indians (this will be easier since they are every where) who can read, write and understand Hindi. We would prefer the participants in our experiment to be educated, preferably with a high school diploma. This would ensure that the participants learned Urdu or Hindi through proper medium/institution where they received proper instruction.

We then take 100 Urdu-speaking Pakistanis to a computer lab (big enough to accommodate 100 participants). There they will be instructed to go to the below website, interpret and record their interpretation on a blank sheet of paper. The webpage for the Urdu-speaking Pakistani group is [(http://www.jang-group.com/jang/oct2005-daily/11-10-2005/national/qomi1.htm)

We then collect their interpretations and count the number of correct interpretations in each group (which I am sure for the Pakistani group will be ‘0’). The results of this experiment will either reject our hypothesis or reinforce it.

In order for our results to be more conclusive we can expand the sample size of each group. The bigger the sample more conclusive our results will be.](“http://www.naidunia.com/articles.asp?article_no=12605101101&yy=2005&mm=10&dd=11&title=CrJígVU˜”)

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

@ravage

:).. common masses? how many urdu speakers here have agreed with you? The only people who have so far agreed to your stance arents urdu speakers to begin with, neither are you for that matter..

The reason Urdu speakers haven’t agreed with me are both psychological and political. Pychological because they want to deny that they are actually Hindustanis having a common race, culture, and language with Hindus/Muslims of India. I am of firm opinion that underlying the emphasis on religious and the artificial Urdu-Hindi difference is a quest for an identity different from Hindustani.

The political reason is, the more privileged the status of Urdu is, the more privileged the Urdu-speaking minority of Pakistan is. And this privileged position can only be ensured by obstinately denying that Urdu is actually Low Hindi.

**Imagine if Pakistani masess percieve that their national language is the same as that of the national language of India and not a native language but an importation from a foreign land, what will be their reaction to it? **

make up your mind. “more like” or equivalent?

Based on the consensus among linguists and all the people, including myself, who have visited India and/or interacted with Indians and have watched Hindi T.V. channels and movies, I can say with 100% certainty that both are the same language-sane script and some vocabulary in their standard or literary forms (called High Hindi and High Urdu).

I wonder how can you deny this fact?

If you trace the origin of English, it basically goes back about seven centuries with the Norman invasion of England, and the need for a new language to mediate between the saxons and the normans. Whereby the structure of english resembles french, and many words are shared. However, the two languages have evolved very differently since then, as have Urdu and Hindi.

Don’t draw a conclusion based on this. New English evolved over an era of 1000 years, very long time for a language to develop into something radically changed from its older version. Moreover, the circumstances that caused the evolution of English from old to new don’t apply to Urdu.

This would never happen in case of Urdu-Hindi. We are living in different times–the powerful media would never let happen what you think.

What would you say about American, Australian, British, etc. English the same despite spoken in different countires?

Perhaps the debate on what should be the vernacular for the whole country had some relevance at the time of partition. However, as it stands, there is no single language that is more widely spoken in Pakistan than Urdu. There is no language in which there are more publications, from all parts of the country, including NWFP, than Urdu.

You’re too late

The sooner the error is rectified, the better for Pakistan. Look how language issue was one of the main causes of the dismemberment of Pakistan. Linguistic chauvinism is very dangerous…moreover, it will cause the re-unification of Pakistan with India.

“One foreign observer” has no relevance here, I can quote 15 different ones if you wish :). There is a fairly strong anti-Urdu lobby too, why didnt any of these outlets choose to go with the ideology that would be anathemic to Pakistanis? We havent been in favour with the powers that be for a good part of this half century, it shouldnt be so hard for you to cite international communications broadcasts that tailors its services for a Pakistani audience in Hindi.

Don’t link acceptance of Urdu with Pakistani patriotism. Urdu is not even Pakistani…is a foreign (Hindustani) language just like English is.

Just imagine if BBC stops merge its Urdu and Hindi services, how would the political elite of Pakistan and Hindustan respond to it? BBC doesn’t agree with the dictatorship of Musharaf but still calls him “president of Pakistan”.

The way universities function isnt apolitical either. Depending on which university you look at, and what the faculty makeup thereat is, you will find dedicated centers for Urdu or those that teach it together with Hindi.

Institutions take political considerations into account, individuals usually don’t. That is why linguists agree that Urdu and Hindi are the two forms of the same language. Nevertheless, universities have started having one department for Urdu and Hindi i.e. Urdu-Hindi.

I know of several exchange students who came to Pakistan to learn Urdu. Their university did not send them to Hindustan to learn “low Hindi”

Some people go to Britian to get degrees in English and some to America.

simple, because Zee News and Zee Cinema present their news in “Low Hindi” which is intelligible to Urdu speakers too, amongst Punjabi speakers, and Gujrati speakers and Bengali speakers and Tamil speakers..

Mutual intelligibility (100%) means the equivalence of Low Hindi and Urdu.

why didnt any Urdu-Hindi speakers pick it up then? Why is Hindi and Urdu differentiated with even in Urdu speaking provinces in India? There is no question there of political expediency, its the same country.

Because there are some people in Hindustan wanting to write Urdu-Hindi (Hindustani) in Quranic (Perso-Arabic ) script.

And the very fact that there exists a bulk of vocabulary that is mutually unintelligible to the speakers of the two languages would indicate that they’re not the same language

Only in the highly Sanskritized/Persianized-Arabized forms of Urdu-Hindi…As for as language on DD (except they use for news), Star Gold, PTV, ZOOM, B4U, etc. there is absolutely no difference.

We can argue back and forth saying the same things over and over, what matters my friend, is that inspite of your desire to paint it as a language “artificially” imposed on the masses, Urdu remains the lingua franca in Pakistan, enabling cosmopolitan cities like Karachi to grow, Urdu remains the most published language in the country, and Urdu will continue to evolve as Pakistan evolves inshallah, regardless of rapidly outdated biases against it.

Lingua Franca come and go…Arabic which was one the lingua-franca has now shrunk to where it is the native language…same is the case of Persian, Russian, and other languages which were imperially imposed…You haven’t sudied history thoroughly…otherwise you wouldn’t have overlooked the transience of imperial structures and tools…

Urdu-Hindi had been enforced by British…

[TheNewWannaBe]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

This clear cut proof of the basic difference does not make any difference to LOD’s dumb head. He continues to go, “blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…blah blah blah…” Look above

Now he’s starting to amuse me with all those efforts going to waste.

[quote=“SugarFree”]
The webpage for the Urdu-speaking Pakistani group is

[SugarFree]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

LastofTheDinosaur, ever heard of Mutation? Due to 50 years of isolation and mutation we are a different people! Fortunately mutation was in our favor and we turned out to be fairer than you guys. Mutation gave us other qualities as well, cant list all of them, there are just too many :D

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

@SugarFree

LastofTheDinosaur, ever heard of Mutation? Due to 50 years of isolation and mutation we are a different people! Fortunately mutation was in our favor and we turned out to be fairer than you guys. Mutation gave us other qualities as well, cant list all of them, there are just too many

Friend, as I see it on this and many different sites, Indians are more rational and honest…that is why Indians are more creative…actually we Pakistanis need re-education…the fabricated official education should be repalced with something more realistic and rational…

[SugarFree]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

So where did you get your "re-education" from? I wasnt educated in Pakistan, although I have been to Pakistan several times but all the short stays combined together wouldnt amount to more than a year. So I am in no way influenced by the "fabricated official education" as you call it. I STILL believe Urdu and Hindi are different languages. Actually there is a world of difference between the two.

[bollybuster]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

I'm still lost as to WHAT Hindi is...the stuff on DD? The stuff in thumkaa-wood....or the stuff the delhites/bombayites/puneites/pukeites etc etc-ites are speaking? As I've stated before, languages are dynamic. If you ever studied Biology, you'd know of a thing called EVOLUTION, and while Urdu was the primary language of India 6 DECADES AGO it's mutated in INDIA (how that happened is another story) over this massive period of time to a language of which different variants are spoken across India, of which the Indians themselves are not sure of. This is in contrast to URDU of which the colloquial structure AND vocabulary is SAME throughout Pakistan. I was brought up in Punjab dammit, but all my friends and acquaintances in Karachi speak the same darned language. On the bazaars in Multan/Karachi/Faislabad/Bahawalpur you hear the same stuff. Even the driver and the mai can speak like DECENT human beings in Urdu as opposed to the sanskritised mere ko tere ko jaraa jaraa crap!!!!

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Ravage, what would you say about the following I mentioned in one of my previous posts? Why on earth would men of the stature of Baba-i-Urdu Mualvi Abdul Haq and Rajandar Prasad call two different languages with the same name?

You are not being honest!

"...an agreement was reached between Rajandar Parasad and Mualvi Abdul Haq, accepting Hindustani as the common language of Hindus and Muslim.

[bollybuster]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

@TheNewWannaBe

Your points are not points but dreams which will forever remain dreams.

Brilliant! Did you come up with that yourself???

[SugarFree]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Check this out man, they call beef, “forbidden” in Hindi whereas we call it “gaye ka gosht” in Urdu.
http://www.gorin.com/phrase/hindi.html

So if you were out on the streets in India and you wanted some beef, you would walk up to a qasai and say >>mujhe “forbidden” chahiye. Where as in Pakistan you can walk up to a qasai and ask “mujhe bara gosht or gaye ka gosht chahiye”.

See another difference :rolleyes:

[Chel_Chabila_Babu]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Get over it guys. LOTD is right, admit it.

The Urdu/Hindi spoken by the vast majority of Desi’s is pretty much exactly the same language (Hindustani) on both sides of the border just wrote in two different scripts, whilst ‘high’ Urdu/Hindi can be considered two dialects of the same language, which will soon be extinct, and Hindustani will come up top.

It’s not at all hard for a Hindi speaker to pick up Urdu or vice versa, all you need is a glossary, learn the vocabulary you’re not familiar with and you can use it in exactly the same way as you would Urdu, I used Sanskrit words allll the time coz they’re trendy, lol…

Urdu and Hindi are the same language just as Punjabi is the same language on both sides, just as with Urdu we’re creating this weird, forced and awkward “Pak Sar Zameen…” Urdu they’re doing the same to Hindi and even Punjabi, if ever I listen to Punjabi news I can only get a jist of what is going on because they’ve gone wayyyyyyyy overboard with the Sanskrit it’s unnatural but when I speak to Sikhs at college we can have a perfect fluent conversation and we can understand everything down to all the naughty words…

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Popular Media select that dialect of a language most widely spoken i.e. why GEO, ARY, ZOOM, ZEE, STAR GOLD, STAR PLUS, B4U, PTV, even DD (except for news broadcasts) speak exactly the same language...

In future many dialects will disappear...

There are purest on both side wanting to create a Hindu Hindi and Muslim Urdu but to no avail...the vast majority in either country speaks the same language that we hear on T.V. Channels and in movies...

[bollybuster]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Excuse me sir, but please stop moulding the facts the way you want to suit your argument -- the stuff on Star PLus/Zee etc. is NOT what the Indians speak in real life. Quite contrarily, Pakistanis actually SPEAK like they do in the plays, Urdu films, khabarnaama etc. Yup, I mean URDU. I've yet to hear an Indian speaking the URDU which is spoken in their films, on TV [which is mostly Urdu smattered with a a few Sanskrit words to give the Indian aura] etc. Neither have I ever heard one speak sanskrit -- and so my question remains...

[TheNewWannaBe]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

Yes, after my years of observation of these indians and their way of speaking in college, at my different jobs, father’s friends, on the roads, on the media, in the newspapers, on the internet and especially my present job where I have come across with indians from almost every part of india.

@bollybuster

Brilliant! Did you come up with that yourself???

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

SugarFree, the list is interesting...

[LastOfTheDinosaurs]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

@bollybuster

Excuse me sir, but please stop moulding the facts the way you want to suit your argument – the stuff on Star PLus/Zee etc. is NOT what the Indians speak in real life. Quite contrarily, Pakistanis actually SPEAK like they do in the plays, Urdu films, khabarnaama etc. Yup, I mean URDU. I’ve yet to hear an Indian speaking the URDU which is spoken in their films, on TV [which is mostly Urdu smattered with a a few Sanskrit words to give the Indian aura] etc. Neither have I ever heard one speak sanskrit – and so my question remains…

Hahaha, good scarcasm…very funny…

[bollybuster]

Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]

^^ Do you even know what sarcasm is? The dunce you are, you'll post some weird link or quote the dictionary about the definition of "sacasm" all the while not knowing an iota about it.