Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Hindi and Urdu is not the same for God sake.
One is like >>> 
and the other is like >>> :Pretty:
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Very mandane argument!..How can Urdu be the language of educated people…?
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
:).. common masses? how many urdu speakers here have agreed with you? The only people who have so far agreed to your stance arents urdu speakers to begin with, neither are you for that matter..
make up your mind. “more like” or equivalent? The etiology of both languages may be similar, and both may have had a shared origin, ie to become the lingua franca for a linguistically diverse nation, but to suggest that as they are now, they are equivalent, is quite a stretch. If you argue that they are similar, then you would find less of an argument.
If you trace the origin of English, it basically goes back about seven centuries with the Norman invasion of England, and the need for a new language to mediate between the saxons and the normans. Whereby the structure of english resembles french, and many words are shared. However, the two languages have evolved very differently since then, as have Urdu and Hindi.
Once again, Urdu and Hindi are not the same language, although they’re both born and nurtured in Hindustan.
Perhaps the debate on what should be the vernacular for the whole country had some relevance at the time of partition. However, as it stands, there is no single language that is more widely spoken in Pakistan than Urdu. There is no language in which there are more publications, from all parts of the country, including NWFP, than Urdu.
You’re too late 
This, by the way, highlights how wrong you are about a language that the masses cannot identify with being artificially imposed on the country. The first language in Pakistan also happens to be English. How many english language authors do we produce compared to Urdu?
“One foreign observer” has no relevance here, I can quote 15 different ones if you wish :). There is a fairly strong anti-Urdu lobby too, why didnt any of these outlets choose to go with the ideology that would be anathemic to Pakistanis? We havent been in favour with the powers that be for a good part of this half century, it shouldnt be so hard for you to cite international communications broadcasts that tailors its services for a Pakistani audience in Hindi.
The way universities function isnt apolitical either. Depending on which university you look at, and what the faculty makeup thereat is, you will find dedicated centers for Urdu or those that teach it together with Hindi.
I know of several exchange students who came to Pakistan to learn Urdu. Their university did not send them to Hindustan to learn “low Hindi”
simple, because Zee News and Zee Cinema present their news in “Low Hindi” which is intelligible to Urdu speakers too, amongst Punjabi speakers, and Gujrati speakers and Bengali speakers and Tamil speakers..
why didnt any Urdu-Hindi speakers pick it up then? Why is Hindi and Urdu differentiated with even in Urdu speaking provinces in India? There is no question there of political expediency, its the same country.
As far as machine transliteration is concerned, I cannot understand Hindi poetry when it is read out to me.
And the very fact that there exists a bulk of vocabulary that is mutually unintelligible to the speakers of the two languages would indicate that they’re not the same language
We can argue back and forth saying the same things over and over, what matters my friend, is that inspite of your desire to paint it as a language “artificially” imposed on the masses, Urdu remains the lingua franca in Pakistan, enabling cosmopolitan cities like Karachi to grow, Urdu remains the most published language in the country, and Urdu will continue to evolve as Pakistan evolves inshallah, regardless of rapidly outdated biases against it.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
"Very mandane argument!...How can Urdu be the language of educated people...?"
^ Ever heard Urdu? Ever read Urdu? Ever spoke Urdu? No, right? Stop argueing the nonsense.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
^^ Okay, so whatever they're speaking now is a bad mutation of Urdu. That sucks -- and that is really Hindi as the world knows it. Last-of-the-whatevers, you should know that languages are never static but are constantly evolving and are truly dynamic. As you've yourself said, this "Hindi" mutated from Urdu/Hindustani with the incorporation of Sanskrit words and script. Over five decades have past since, so it is VERY idiotic to assert that these languages are the same.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Exactly 
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
TOh kya laRkiyon say galay milti hai? kya baat hai…progessive pakistanis…I like. :k:
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Dandaaaaaaa… dont take panggaaaaaa, okay?? 
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
there is no urdu speaking province in INdia. They have states not provinces, Ravage. Yu know so little about your motherland it is a shame. Urdu spoken in Pakistan is laughable. It is just like Hindi, difference of a word here nad there. Seats of learning urdu in places like JNU and DU in India and Allahbad and Lukhnow Unis are where the original language of hte court evolved and it is there where it is stil best preserved and practiced. everything else is a melange. Including the crap spoken in pakistan. You guys have really sullied a noble Indian language and you should be ashamed of yourselves. :p
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
^ How sweeeet
So, this comes after how many years of research on spoken/written Urdu in pakitsan?
Shame on you trying to discuss you know nothing of 
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Dr. Tariq Rahman on page 73 of his book "Language and Politics in Pakistan" under the title M. K. Gandhi and the controversy...
"M. K. Gandhi's efforts to concilliate both Muslims and Hindus through linguistic compromise can thus be understood in the context of increasing tendencies towards separatism. Gandhi defined Hindustani as 'that language which is generally spoken by Hindus and Muslamans of the North, whether written in Devanagri or Urdu'. Gandhi, however, aligned himself with Devanagri movement, the aim of which was to "have it the common script of all the languages spoken in different provinces'...
...The worst fear of the Muslims come true when, on Gandhis insistence, the Bharatya Sahitya Parishad changed the term Hidustani to "Hindi-Hindustani" in its session of 24 April 1936. Abdul Haq, head of the Anjuman-i-Tarq-i-Urdu, the foremost organization for the development of Urdu, opposed the change and some prominent Muslims wrote letters Gandhi protesting against it. Gandhi's response to Haq-that the Muslims could preserve the Urdu script, which was Quranic, appears to have outraged Muslim feelings..."
Dr. Tariq Rahman tells us that at one time, an agreement was reached between Rajandar Parasad and Mualvi Abdul Haq, accepting Hindustani as the common language of Hindus and Muslim.
All one can infer from the above from the above is that Hindi-Urdu controversy was a conflict over the script, with Muslims insisting on Perso-Arabic script and Hindus on Devanagri script.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
^ no LOD, one can only infer that this is the inference drawn by you for a specific purpose in mind, based on a specific exerpt selected by yourself.
pinstripe: that actually isnt true and depends on what part of Pakistan you speak of. I have many relatives in UP (khas Lukhnow) and so I know the kind of language spoken there. Unfortunately, because of the lack of governmental support, the language hasnt evolved the way it has in Pakistan, neither are there as many publications in it as in Pakistan. According to my relatives atleast, increasingly there is lesser emphasis on learning Urdu in favour of Hindi amongst this generation atleast. However, that just might be the kind of stuff every generation says about the one following it.
The kind of urdu spoken in UP, is still the kind of urdu spoken in many parts of Karachi, however we've been fortunate to have had it spread to other parts of the country that have contributed gems like Faiz (punjab) and Faraz (nwfp).
ps.. province.. state, whatever!
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Do you have some original stuff of your own to share? No, right?
Then shooooooooooooooooo offfffffffffffffff 
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
^ in a country like Pakistan where 60% of the population cannot read or write, to pontificate on the virtues of academia and research is laughable.
Initially in bollywood there used to be more urdu, because the lyricists and writers were mostly muslim, who misguidedly wanted to have the medium be an elitist one. Once the medium went mainstream, you saw the confluence of accents, languages and popular affectations incorporated in the medium. HIndi spoken in delhi and urdu spoken in lahore have very few differences. A few words here or there. Hindi in delhi will have a more UP influence and urdu in lahore will have a more punjabi influence. None is better or worse or street or classical. It is the same siht. Get over your illfounded sense of relative superiority and get a clue.
Languages change all the time. Those that cannot adapt to the influence of outside forces die. There is no such thing as pure language.
And Ravage. force feeding language (government support) has never worked.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
My question remains:
this >>> http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3566125&postcount=89
comes after how many years of research on spoken/written Urdu in pakitsan? Ever been to Pakistan? Try not to discuss you know nothing of.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
the comparison is with Urdu speaking provinces in India, and only because you mentioned them. Do you wish to research on how many can read and write there?
you’re the one assuming there is any sense of superiority, atleast in me. As far as Im concerned, both languages are a product of the Muslim rule over India :).
I’ve never heard Hindi spoken in Delhi, I have however heard Hindi spoken from Gujrat and Bombay, and that is very, very different from the variation between Urdu from Lahore and Urdu from Karachi.
And Pinstripe, if we are to believe LOD here, it has, because before the government stepped in only 0.001 percent of his people knew the language. And now some of the foremost Urdu literatary figures come from his people mashallah.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
After having spoken to over 200 pakistanis and having the ability to understand your gutter urdu, I am confident that with these datapoints. My points are valid.
Ravage, North Indian hindi speaking folks (think 600 million people) can speak, understand everything that people from most of punjab and sindh speak. When I go to the UK, I am not speaking queens english and chances are neither are 99% of the people there. When I meet a Pakistani, chances are he is speaking hindi and I ma speaking urdu when we are talking. Whether there are 4500 graduates in 19th century urdu prose with scholarships form Pakistan gov't compared ot only 20 in India with the same pedigree, is inconsequential.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
After having observed 10,000+ indians speaking your JAMADAAR hindi, I am certain that hindi is the lowest of the lowest. Can never attain the status of Urdu.
Your points are not points but dreams which will forever remain dreams.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
I am not sure if it was msulim rule over India. See Akhbar was an Indian so was Aurangzeb. We have had good and bad Indian muslim rulers. When we go to humayun's tomb in Delhi, we don't go there to view it as a foreig entity...the country and people don't look at it that way. There is no jaundice of religion there... :)
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
[quote]
Ravage, North Indian hindi speaking folks (think 600 million people) can speak, understand everything that people from most of punjab and sindh speak. When I go to the UK, I am not speaking queens english and chances are neither are 99% of the people there. When I meet a Pakistani, chances are he is speaking hindi and I ma speaking urdu when we are talking. Whether there are 4500 graduates in 19th century urdu prose with scholarships form Pakistan gov't compared ot only 20 in India with the same pedigree, is inconsequential.
[/quote]
wait, why are you now making distinctions between street and literary language? furthermore, it was you who suggested that Urdu is spoken better in India than in Pakistan, and my response is with reference to that. It does matter for the development of the language that there are 4500 graduates in the language compared to 20 of the same pedigree.
[quote]
I am not sure if it was msulim rule over India. See Akhbar was an Indian so was Aurangzeb. We have had good and bad Indian muslim rulers. When we go to humayun's tomb in Delhi, we don't go there to view it as a foreig entity...the country and people don't look at it that way. There is no jaundice of religion there...
[/quote]
excellent, so both of us respect the origin of the languages. in this regard, neither of us would be looking down on either language for being associated with medieval India as far as origins go, except for LOD.