Urdu as our national langauge

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

And yet, the tax money of all Indians go towards opening government-run Central Schools all over India (later renamed as Kendriya Vidyalaya - funny how hindi does it again), and the medium of instruction always has Hindi, but no other national language irrespective of where these schools are located. Same goes for Army Public Schools. These national institutions are not hindi-belt's dowry, but that is how it seems from policy. Every year, the central government blows off money trying to educate its non-hindi speaking employees in hindi programs. Zero programs exist for hindi-speakers in non-hindi areas to learn the native language! wtf.

And these non-hindi speakers have all been highly educated and well qualified for these positions. Unlike hindi-speakers like Indira Gandhi who has gone to a dozen universities but never graduated, rajiv gandhi who didnt even bother dropping out from more than one uni, chai wala modi whose education was basically wearing khakhi chuddies and roaming around in the RSS..

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

I don't think that anyone is trying to politicize the debate here, but thanks for understanding my intentions. I anyway would be the last one to politicize this issue, as I belong to the 8% group that speaks Urdu as the first language. It’s just that I see the enforcing of it as a national (and now official) language being an unfair policy.

I am not an attentive reader of history; at least not as much as many of the other participants of this thread are, but believe that Urdu was forced on Pakistanis because it was promoted as the language of Muslims in subcontinent. You go anywhere in the world, and you don’t see language being used as a divider between the religious groups. Only in indo-pak it has been used as a divider. Even in today’s India, if I am Hindu and you are Muslim and even if we live in same community, you would be automatically assumed to know the Urdu script.

Amazingly, this division of language between religious groups is more noticeable in the western indo-pak. Bangladesh and West Bengal don’t see that division. Many of my Bengalis friends don’t read Quran in Arabic script. They read Quran in Bengali script

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

As a Lahori, I have serious concerns over what would happen to Punjab if the toxic 'sons of soil' nationalism comes to Lahore, I mean which 'foreign' element it will try to reverse:

Lahore an all Punjabi city beauty lies in its Mughal architecture, our cuisine derives heavy Kashmiri influence, our best schools and colleges are relics of British Raj and Christian missionaries, our favourite sport is cricket, our very respected patron saint Data Ganj Bhaksh was Persian sufi born in Afghanistan. So which 'foreign identity' of Lahore will fall prey to 'radical Punjab nationalism'?

Sometimes, I think you need to take a walk down in Lahore to realise how beautiful the whole idea of 'mixed heritage' is.

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

Lahore is Lahore because it served as a capital ( functional and symbolic) under Hindu, Muslim and even British raj. It's a true metro. Lahore is not real Punjab, just like Karachi is not real Sindh.

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

That's why you need to read history. :)

English became the language of Protestant faith after England's break with Rome. St John's Bible changed the face of Christianity forever, and set England on the path of imperial success because it triggered a quest for new identity and glory against an all powerful Roman Catholic Church and Catholic Europe.

Urdu too became a language of religion as Islamic scriptures from Arabic and Persian started getting translated into Urdu hence it became a common perception for Muslim elite of India to know Urdu (as well as Persian) as this is where the concentrated religious knowledge was stored.

Languages thrive only when they become a source of new knowledge and innovation. If folklore and poetic traditions were enough to keep languages flourishing, then the whole of Europe would have been speaking Celtic or French today.

I belong to the 48% group, as I proud Punjabi, it will so easy for me to cheer-lead the idea of Punjabi nationalism and make excuses for riots and bloodshed and war, but I'll stick to my principles and say religion and ethnicity when mixed with politics, and especially politics of complexes is a recipe for disaster.

I would encourage KPK style language revival in Punjab where the focus is to actually empower the local community, recognise home grown talents, and provide them with employment and leisure opportunities, than politicise the language at the expense of having a go at others to settle inter-generational scores.

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

Indeed Lahore Lahore aye. But it is still the city that truly makes you appreciate the idea of mixed heritage, and how beautiful it is. To this day, you won't find any sort of certain ethnic specific areas in the city, people from all kinds of backgrounds have integrated so well into the unique local culture.

Anyway. There is should be absolutely no doubt that Pakistan needed a lingua franca, and there was no better option than selecting Urdu. Urdu as an official language makes full sense, it is the idea of national language that upset some.

I mean if the whole continent of Europe can have common lingual francc, why can't multi-ethnic countries?

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@queer medium of instruction in KVs is always Hindi? prove, it's your homework :) Now you know representation from south has been adequate. If you are interested in North & South then get stats of educational qualifications of North Indian politicians instead of citing a few less educated like Mr. L. P. Yadav I can show you a number of highly qualified people like Manohar Parikkar IIT graduate or Dr. Manmohan Singh , economist at every level but App deepo bhava :) (enlighten yourself) Suppose we impose educational qualification say graduation then we debar a section of society from contesting elections mainly scheduled castes & tribes. It would be injustice to them. We should educate people then to cry foul. And bhai ye bhi sochiye ki sirf paise walo ko hi ni chaiwalah, rikshahwalah, mithaiwalah, doodhwalah sabko haq hai age badhne ka, Dhirubhai Ambani kitne padhe likhe the? petrol pump pe kam karte the na..Also tell me how a PhD. will help a politician. Well it's not a topic here but try to know things.

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

Ouch, that hurts.

Your reference about English may be right, but the reason was because of the fact that the first widely printed version of bible was in English, because it was printed out of England. So yes, the language got dominance in certain Christian sects, but the reason was different. Following the same reasoning, Arabic should've been the language of choice of indo pak muslims. Urdu was an invented as opposed to be an evolved language. It was invented with the purpose of dividing people, and it's still doing exactly that.

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This small piece says a lot about respect thats being always given to urdu, well deserved.

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

Elizabethan Era is considered the golden age of England because this is when England found its new identity as a Protestant state and English became the language of protestant ideas. In a nutshell, Englishness became the face of Protestantism. England is not the only country that linked language with faith and new found identity. In Turkey, Ataturk too got rid of Arabic script of Turkish language and replaced it with Roman letters as a move to depart from religious identity and failures of Ottoman Empire, and give Turkish language and Turkey the state a more European and progressive outlook. It was quite a symbolic personal initiative of a man who hated the Ottoman rulers and the Arab rebellion.

Arabic may have been the language of Muslims of subcontinent, but Turo-Persian dynasties ruled subcontinent lot longer and more extensively, and they invested more heavily into arts and literature.

How is Urdu an invented language? This is factually incorrect. It evolved from Persian and Arabic, and what is the evidence that in 16th century people spoke Urdu like you and I, and not the ever so Persian sounding Urdu of Pakistan's national anthem? Just because the Brits promoted the language to counter the imperial influence of Persian, doesn't mean it's an invented language. It always existed, maybe not in the form known as today, but certainly it was considered the diluted and less sophisticated version of language spoken in the royal courts, but still close enough to be spoken by the imperial army who interact with the masses.

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Quite agree with that. Hindi / Urdu divide was also used by Muslim League during independence movement. Isn’t it using language for political purposes?

It is very naive to assume that imposition of Urdu was just for purpose of lingua franca. If this was the case, why were Bengalis not allowed to use their language during assembly proceedings? Insistence of only Urdu / English, where majority population was Bengali. Did all members know Urdu / English to present their case in assembly?

See how Urdu was treated as only Islamic language and insistence of other languages was termed Hindu conspiracy.

From the same document:

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^ No where in the document suggest that Urdu was "imposed" as whined by ethno-nationalists. The last sentence clearly states that in area where it was not the popular language, arrangements should be made to teach it as an optional subject. What's wrong with that? How is this any different from French and other Europeans learning English as an "optional subject" in their respective countries? Is it a bad thing?

The language issue has always been blown out of proportion by certain communities. The ever so exaggerated Bengali discontent over language wasn't any different from the discontent KPK government has with Punjab over water and gas profit. In other words, nothing that cannot be resolved and put behind. But separation of Bangladesh happened over a very particular reason! And let's not do any aeeen baeen shaeen when it comes to acknowledging and condemning that reason!

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True, that the rest of Punjab doesn't have the charm of Lahore's larger than life imperial glamour and cosmopolitan spirit, but rest of Punjab is also as racially diverse as Lahore and communities have co-existed peacefully for centuries and generations and from recent times by being slightly more welcoming to others.

The Potohari diaspora in Pindi plus the 'Potohari Plateau'. Kashmiris in Sialkot and Gujranwala, Pashtun belt of Attock and surrounding districts from up North, Saraikis from down South. Faislabad with large number Indian Punjabi (Haryana) Muhajirs. Not to mention the scattered population of Urdu speaking Muhajirs who settled all over in urban Punjab at the time of partition and in the late 70s, 80s and 90s after the outbreak of violence in Karachi. This is all Punjab!

Am I glad that we don't have any "radical Punjab nationalism" in Punjab which would have meant all these groups would have killed and abused each other in the name of language and culture? Of course. I'm indeed very glad that Punjab isn't divided as Sindh!

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

The issue here is of language and approach to allow communities using their languages freely as a medium of instruction, communication at forums like constitutional assembly. So lets be very specific on the questions (instead of already agreed points that Bengalis did faced political and economic suppression):

  1. How was it justified to insist for only one state language, when majority (Bengalis) did not approve the idea?

  2. How will you justify banning use of Sindhi in Karachi university as medium of instruction during 1950s?

  3. How will you justify action during One-Unit where mentioning name of Sindh on letters was enough reason to reject delivery by Pakistan post?

Don't you think that these all actions lead to mistrust among the communities over the period and such steps should not have been taken at the first?

PS: last sentence quoted in my post above was for 1937 and not period after 1947. If the matter was resolved in 1937, this should have been given consideration by Muslim League Leadership after 1947 for all the areas forming part of Pakistan. I don't think its difficult to differentiate use of Urdu as optional language (in East Pakistan) than denying the majority language (Bengali) as second state language.

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Itni khush na hon. It could be a discussion of another thread, but Punjab has it's own issues. Its the worst province of Pakistan when it comes to religious intolerance. At least you don't get beaten to death or burnt alive in other provinces if you're Christian or Ahmedi.

The harmony that you are tooting about also lacks in Punjab. It's just that lack of harmony carries a different face.

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Yes, it is indeed a discussion for another thread. The focus of this discussion became ethno-lingual harmony and acceptance, and when it comes to that, no one tops the chart other than Punjab! Simple as that.

If Punjab was a land of perfections, I wouldn't be a staunch opponent of PMLN and even worst, oppose them for a party which has a government in Pakhtoonkha!

In Punjab all kinds of slogans sell other slogans of racial xenophobia where Mayors and Ministers stand in front of a huge crowd make disgusting racial attacks on opponents and abuse a community of 101 million people, receive cheers and votes, and the so called parhey likehy champions of diversity and tolerance don't even bat an eyelid!

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At least with religious bigotry and extremism, the sane Muslims come together, and say that this is not Islam, these murders cannot be committed in the name of Islam. This is not right. This needs to stop, this has to stop for sake of Islam and for sake of humanity.

There is a counter argument, a resistance, and a cure.

How do you deal with racial xenophobia? How do you stop it?

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Re: Urdu as our national langauge

what mullahs are coming together? do taliban accept those mullahs? Anti-qadyani and even anti-shiite gustakh-e-sahaba has mainstream violent support in deobandis. Heck, you can even get barelvi ulemas who aren't anti-shia on the qadyani bandwagon.

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I didn't say Mullahs, I said sane Muslims.

It is a pretty futile debate to expect ulemas to let go off their differences with Qadiyani beliefs. But what really needs to happen is that Qadiyani clause needs to be taken out of the constitution along with blasphemy clause (replaced with universal hate speech, anti racism and discrimination laws), and that's all for now. The ulema biradari can have their differences debated till dooms day, I'm not interested.

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@Jolie, if you are implying that linguistic based division/hatred is a bigger problem in Pakistan than religion based, then I can't even start to tell you how wrong you are.