Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Nope, I’m not implying that, and I didn’t even bring that topic up, but you are now getting defensive, and indulging in whataboutery.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I have no reason to be defensive. I am an Urdu speaking guy aka bhayya. I am the one started this thread. I just pointing out the obvious
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Even Sindh got a very good history for ethnic harmony and I can blow my own trumpet. The ethnic riots and hatred is a recent phenomenon (after partition, which got momentum after the incidents like on-unit and 1970s linguistic riots). Otherwise, No one can deny the diversification of races in Sindh. More than 40% of Sindh’s population is Baloch tribes. You will not find as many Chandias, Jamails, Khosas, Magsi, Mangi, Gabol, Leghari in whole of Punjab as in Sindh. Baloch leader Chakar Khan Rind did migrated to Sahiwal Punjab and is buried there, but you will find more Rinds in Sindh than in Punjab. Lyari (with majority Baloch population living aside Sindhis for around a century) is a slap on those who are of the view that there is no harmony among the races in Sindh.
There are Punjabi settlers in rural Sindh (including the one who settled after distribution of Kotri Barrage lands in 1950s). Now these settlers (including Maliks, Chaohans, Awans) which have assimilated with locals have never witnessed ethnic riots.
Then you can witness Pashtuns not only in Sohrab Goth and Banaras (Karachi), but in rural Sindh. Even they have colonies in Sehwan Sharif near mazar of Qalandar Shahbaz. Pathan ki kaafi is a famous place in Sehwan. Any reports for tussles between these Patahns and local Sindhis?
I know there have been clashes between Urdu speaking community and Sindhis, but it is not a complete face-off situation among the communities. There is strong bonding between the communities at masses level. Certain political waves do carry away people with their decision to vote their respectively communities, but that does not mean that they lack tolerance of others in absolute terms. There are people at intellectual level among both the communities who took steps for harmony and mutual understanding between both groups and I don’t think that its a lost cause.
So, one who are of the view that there will never be ethnic harmony among people living in Sindh, should dream on and live in their bubble.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Slap on the face…sweet. Reham Khan would have cried misogyny.
Yes there are more Balochis in Sindh than whole of Punjab because Balochistan borders Sindh, and even Baloch Sardars and Separatists leaders come to Karachi for treatment. But true we don’t have ethnic ghettos like Liyari in the whole of Punjab where presence of minority ethnicity stands out like a sore thumb. The type of Balochs we have in urban Punjab, i.e Lahore/Islamabad/Multan etc are fairly rich middle class and professional folks, the types that benefited from Nationalisation or joined military services, moved to affluent areas and have integrated well. The majority of working class Baloch community and old tribes are settled in Southern Punjab, i.e Layyah, Rahim Yar Khan, Bahawalpur, Dera Ismail Khan, Dera Ghazi Khan, Rajanpur…and so on. Despite the whole controversy over Southern Punjab province - these people aren’t killing each other.
If collective socio-economic progression, geographical mobility and multi cultural urban integration are not the criteria than a province like Balochistan too have large number of Punjabi, Saraiki and Sindhis labourers working. Doesn’t matter if dozens of those get target killed every year, happens in Karachi too. Big deal, right?
Yes, Sindhi Muhajir bhai bhai yeh dhoti or naswar kahan se aayi, was an excellent idea to promote harmony between Sindhis and Muhajirs. If only they could find a way to get over their inter-generational grievances.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
The slap was not intended for you. It was for haters who don’t empathy for the people. They are just proud of themselves. I don’t think you would like to be counted among those people. You portray yourself open-minded and claim to be acceptable for all communities, so don’t catch these phrases. In your own words ‘grow thicker skin’.
So now you have problem with Balochi people settled in Sindh and don’t fall in your definition of middle class professional folks.
How much do you know about contribution of Balochs settled in Sindh? These people are in all the field from Literature (Dr Nabi Bux Baloch, Iqbal Kalmati), Singers (Zarina Baloch, Shazia Khushk) media personalities (Sanam Baloch, Fareed Nawaz Baloch’s family), Business community (Fehmida Jamali VC Karachi Chamber of Commerce), Doctors (Dr Seemi Jamali head of emergency at JPMC) besides a number of businesses operated by these tribes all across Sindh.
What would you call multi-culture integration, when these all Baloch tribes have assimilated with locals Sindhis and have mingled in a way that you never heard about any clashes between locals and settlers over the period of more than 3 centuries?
Why so much reaction for a simple comment about harmony amongst Sindhi-Muhajir population? Did anyone blame tussle between these communities on Punjabis or Pathans here?
By the way, contrary to your claim that we Sindhis impose language on settlers, all Balochs, Punjabis, Pathans and to your utter disappointment Muhajirs adapted Sindhi just by interacting with local population. Yes, we did have a Government policy for teaching Sindhi in schools, so is for Arabic and now Chinese.
Lyari was not a ghetto for linguistic matters. It turned ghetto due to turf war among gangs. Ask some independent person who have an idea of Lyari to confirm you that even today it constitutes not only Balochi and Sindhi, but a sizable population of Memons (Urdu speaking Muhajirs) in adjoining Kharadar and Pathan traders in JuRya Bazar and Lee Market. These people are not killing each other as you try to portray from so far lands.
For your kind information, there is no inter-generational rivalry among masses. I myself belong to a family where there is a strong tradition of intermarriage between Sindhi-Muhajir and Sindhi-Baloch.
PS: get some lessons in geography of Pakistan. Balochistan does share borders with Punjab as it does with Sindh.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
The only person in this thread who has made claim about Punjab having greater rate of ethno-linguistic in comparison to other provinces is me - but the slap wasn’t intended for me? Must be for poor Ajazali then. Anyway - you have used the worst misogynist language for me in the past, bit of violent misogynist claptrap will only add to the honours. You can call me more vile gender specific names. I don’t care.
No I don’t have a “problem” with Baloch settling in Sindh - so spare me your sermon and every bit of ethnic details. Honestly I don’t pay attention to people’s background and surnames as much some other people. It took me a while to realise that Islamabad F7 living Shareen Mizari is actually from Southern Punjab. But you made the claim about there being more Balochis and started literally counting the tribes, and I simply replied by saying the Baloch diaspora maybe smaller in size in Punjab, but it is also very varied.
You need to brush up your geographic knowledge as well comprehension skills - the areas I named in my previous post border Punjab, or don’t they? But forgive me for being a non nationalist Punjabi, and being consciously aware of the fact that Southern Punjab historically has different ethnic mix up and migration patterns than Central and Northern Punjab.
If you think there is absolutely no such thing is racial xenophobia in Sindh at all - then good for you. Not that I ever expected you to admit.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I don’t have issue with your blowing own trumpet and slaughtering others for the issues which you don’t know much about. You are the only person here who have started rubbish language to discourage healthy discussions and if anyone lost his / her composure to give you your favorite medicine then nothing can be done for that. I did apologized for my exchanges in this very thread, but you still kept using same language by terming people xenophobic and all by showing your fake pride.
I’m proudly from peela school and neither I have any claim on English nor I boast for great comprehension. In your post sentence **'**Yes there are more Balochis in Sindh than whole of Punjab because Balochistan borders Sindh’ is the reason for my suggestion to get your geography corrected. Last I checked Southern Punjab is still part of Punjab, so may be you could have avoided this sentence. If I mentioned the diaspora of Baloch population in Sindh, that does not demand to start telling that Balochi migrants in Punjab have more prominent position than Balochi tribes settled in Sindh followed by comments like ‘these people are not killing each other’. See how you present your arguments and then have audacity to blame others.
Again that slap was for hate mentality and I don’t have any grudges for an online person to slap them and being violent with them. So please avoid such comments and don’t take them personally.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
I have never put any facade of being oh so literary and cultured person and then go around using vile gender specific gutter terms, and proudly term them as a ‘medicine’. Go put these vile gender specific misogynist terms in my mouth and call em medicine, be proud of it. I am not complaining - just pointed out something for your own sake. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend that Sindh doesn’t have any sense of xenophobia - cry about language riots all the time, acknowledged political racial divisions and language of ethnic hate in every political campaign - and then say nope, xenophobia simply doesn’t exist. Maybe it is not xenophobia as long as Punjabis are getting abused and their daughters, sisters and wives getting called prostitutes in front a cheering crowd without the parhey likehy champions of tolerance and diversity bating an eyelid. All those years, it was not MQM but aliens who were target killing people in the name of ethnicity and sectarianism. Yes I am glad that our political elite, despite their million faults - don’t need to make fun of anyone’s ethnicity for votes. In a land of million problems - it is one bloody less thing to worry about.
Yes - socio-economic progression is the one of the main factors of measuring ethnic integration and concept of equal opportunities, if you have problem with such concepts and want to get defensive about it, then fine. But in Punjab, I hope those who mean well for the province, use better indicators to measure integration and socio-economic progress, no matter how bitter the reality is.
Yes my mistake - Southern Punjab is still part of Punjab - so yes, it is not the Saraiki belt, but “Punjab” that borders Balcohistan. Happy?
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
The biggest problem with people like you is generalisation. If they see such generalisation against them, they feel pained and are happy to generalise others. hypocrisy thy name is convenience.
You do feel for any generlisation against Punjab (like statements by political rascals against Punjabi population), but when it comes to others, you can’t put yourself in empathetic position rather your attitude is simply adding insult to the injuries.
No one denies that there are ethnic problems in Sindh and people do think about solving them. But when someone talks about such efforts, people like you have strange mindset which is depicted in last sentence of your post no. 124.
I have interacted with so many posters on these forums and did have heated arguments as well, but the level of hostility you show in your posts is unparalleled. You only try to highlight negatives of other communities to prove sainthood of the population you support. In reality, there always exist grey areas. if Sindh (including Karachi) is that violent and every one is killing each other, what is the reason that population from across the Pakistan is willing to move in such killing atmosphere? Obviously, they see opportunities there.
So please look at things from all perspectives, before coming with harsh comments during a discussion.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
It is not what Sindh based political rascals say about Punjabi population. I can simply ignore what MQM gutka leaders say about Punjabis or Pathans - these ethnic groups are too big to get bogged down by political hatred by a single city based ethno-fascist party or what Sindhi feudals have to say. It is lack of empathy, any sort of protest, any sort of popular opposition, any reaction, any pressure from local community that I find very disturbing. Especially from the community that claims to be so educated and diverse, yet never stood up against such vile racism. I am indeed bitterly disappointed.
Look at yourself - people like you have an undying remorse and regret for treatment of Bengalis who now happily live in a separate country and don’t give a hoot about what Pakistanis have to say about them - but how many times have you condemned Sindhi leaders and Muhajirs nationalist for using absolutely filthy language against a population of 100 million people, and still getting away with overwhelming votes? Just because you hate the leader who receives the bulk of these racist abuse, doesn’t make it okay to surpass it. When MQM says - don’t vote us out, Punjabis will invade you and exterminate your whole race - isn’t this a sign of xenophobia? When Sindhi leaders say - don’t vote us out, Punjabis will invade you and exterminate your race - isn’t this xenophobia? Is there a popular reaction, condemnation, opposition and pressure in Sindh to get rid of these racist hatemongers? Accuse me of portraying Punjabis as saint and whatever - but I will continue to appreciate the fact racial xenophobia is still one less thing to worry about in a land plagued so many deep rooted issues. You can continue to take offence in it, and get so defensive, but this is reality. It is an encouraging sign and need to be applied more extensively to achieve overall religious harmony and other kinds of equalities.
What I can’t also stand is sickening hypocrisy - people who cry nonstop about Ayub Khan - Fatima Jinnah tussle, partition of East Pakistan - exposed their rotten ideologies when in 2014 - the same issues re-surfaced and pushed the country on the brink of similar crisis and popular discontent. I’ve seen how they mocked, ridiculed, dismissed, demonised, trivilized a cause which echoed back to Pakistan darkest chapters. I don’t need to have any respect for the crocodile tears they shed for Bangladesh or Fatimah Jinnah from such people.
I didn’t always find your ethnic pride nauseating - I had shared numerous interesting, informative, well meaning and mutually agreed views in relations to culture and arts. with you, until you started trending the lines of everything foreign = evil, everything native = good (which is effectively the definition of xenophobia).
Lastly Quide e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah was not my Phuppo da puttar - if you think decision to “impose” Urdu was biggest mistake, then fine. I hope Sindhis find peace and a middle option to reverse this mistake. We have 18th Amendment, and you guys have an all Sindhi PPP and plenty of die hard sons of soil nationalists. There is indeed a solution, and good luck. I will forever maintain that Punjab will have to do things slightly differently, more cautiously, and less vindictively for their own sake. Urdu language really isn’t the worst thing that happened to them, and it is quite important that they are aware of it.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Tell me how many times Sindhi nationalists were elected to represent in constitutional assemblies? Now say something about their rejection by Sindhi population.
MQM might be getting votes in the name of ethnic hatred, but how about the perception of people that they did not get suitable alternatives (suitable according to them and their comfort and that does not mean Muhajir leaders as Karachi did voted for PTI, PMLN and JI who are neither Sindhi nor Muhajir parties).
You are ready to generalise Karachi and other parts of Sindh on the basis of 25% voter turnout, how about 75% population which didn’t have any trust in electoral system and they don’t buy the manifesto of existing parties (whether ethnic or religious based).
**PS: related to your last paragraphs in above post
**I do remember those discussions and appreciate the positive contribution and I personally find your posts informative, but I stopped posting in Arts and Culture, because of the attitude of politicizing matters. You asked me about reason of decline of education system in Sindh, where I mentioned my views and different reasons (my personal opinion) including migration of Hindu teachers, politicizing the students and boycotts of classes by nationalist parties. But the post was not taken well and then there came a series of exchanges in different threads where you tried to paint people of Sindh as hateful to other communities and the usual mantra of hatred for outsiders inspite of showing you examples of well assimilated settlers in Sindh. Its not that I hated outsiders for everything. I just don’t like glamorising the looters. I had discussed the architecture, cuisine and positive contribution of Muslim dynasties in India (mainly Mughals) and I don’t know how my posts give an impression that I hated all things not native.
Regarding Quaid e Azam, I don’t think that pointing mistakes of founding fathers is a blasphemy. I have my opinion on his decision for Urdu in Bengal and I don’t stop anyone to have a different view over this. Just pointing some mistakes does not mean that I don’t consider him a great leader.
Regarding Punjab and their priority to Urdu over Punjabi, I’ll just say that its their internal matter. We can just highlight what Punajbi intellectuals think and the decision is with Punjab’s people. In return, every community expects that they are allowed to do with mother tongues instead of getting generic terms like ‘Ghaddar’, etc.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
None - due to military rules and by the post electoral system meant truly representative groups couldn’t get into assemblies - doesn’t matter the vote count. Then came PPP and establishment’s support for early PPP which meant nationalists could be negated. Now how PPP has kept all opposition including the nationalists at bay in Sindh is all history, and I’m sure you know more about the local power struggle dynamics than I do.
Re PTI and Karachi and Sindh - PTI can be as dead as any party that can possibly be in Sindh and Karachi, and I don’t care. This is my new attitude. All the optimism and activism can go to hell. They have no chance of winning anything there, and that’s fine.
I’m not stupid and I know PTI will never win 148 NA seats of Punjab, but it’s good to have strong opposition and some competition in the province. Imran is neither a saint nor a prophet nor a messiah or even a professional politician, but just a decent *bandey da puttar *who has his heart in the right place, and often makes very good sense, and hasn’t committed mass murders or looted Pakistan’s wealth. It is my strong desire to see Punjab give him a chance for their own sake, and that’s all.
I wished that people of Karachi with all their pride in their ‘diversity’ and ‘education’ reacted, opposed and condemned and rejected the vile racism and decade of unprecedented violence when they had the golden chance of voting in the most fair and peaceful elections.. But that’s okay - jinki maa behan ko khulam khula gaaliyan nikali thee got their revenge and took Altaf Hussain off TV. I wish people of Karachi find their picture perfect, totally flawless and God gifted heavenly alternative. All the best to them.
I am probably the only person who has the potential to politicise debates in Arts and Culture, and I don’t even post there anymore. So you are free to post whatever you like, and I am sure it will generate meaningful discussions.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
All the best to you as well.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
It gives me a hurt to make the observation that you two fight like a couple.
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
LOL.. Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Seinfeld and Elaine were fighting and kramer said, “Dont you two see.. you two are in luv with each other”.. :jano:
I do see a cupid here too..
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
@SID_NY who on the GS don’t love muqawwee 
aaj toh ho jaaye voting 
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
No voting today. Today muqawwee is relaxing, listening to his favorite song 
Bhool gaya sab kuchh,
yaad nahi ab kuchh
Oh ho, ha aa
Ek yahi baat na bhooli,
…
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
The 8% speak urdu = those whose first language or mother tongue is urdu i.e. urdu speaking people (most of them migrated from India).
48% speak punjabi implies those whose mother tongue is Punjabi but what it does not say is that 100% of those punjabis speak and understand urdu
10% speak saraiki means 10% of the population is saraiki but 100% of those saraikis speak and understand urdu
The same is true with with the other percentages mentioned
Urdu is the only language that is spoken and understood all over Pakistan, hence it should stay as our national language
Official work should be in both English & Urdu
Re: Urdu as our national langauge
Surely you are confusing him with Milka Xing