Re: Unmarried guys
Technically that is not true.
For example, it is haram to draw up a contract that is based on rib'a even if both parties agree to it. Likewise, there are parts of nikkah which are not allowed to be drawn up ... even with mutual consent.
Bahi jaan if someone wana do gunah you can't stop them , but I was talking about Halal agreement :)
Re: Unmarried guys
Agreed it is ...
question...do you really believe all the stuff you say?
Re: Unmarried guys
question...do you really believe all the stuff you say?
By asking that question ... you either doubt my sincerity or your own sincerity to regard what I say ... If I say no to your question then it makes everything I say meaningless and if I say yes then I have missed the point you are trying to make.
Come out with it sister ... why do you let my words get under your skin? Or if you have a real contention then explain it out and I'm sure I will walk away a better person acknowledging your views.
At the moment to me it seems you have no view yourself, but you want to contend whatever is my view. Is it personal?
Re: Unmarried guys
Women have the right of divorce, yes. But it’s not similar, no. A man’s right to marital freedom is extra-judicial. A woman must walk/drive/ride a camel to the nearest court to file it. Whereas her husband can sit on the couch in his pajamas, fart a magic number of 3 times and voila.
Sure thing, I don’t think I implied that about patriarchy. But that’s like saying an unequal playing field cannot be equated with oppression or injustice, or that it does not facilitate and guarantee room for abuse. The underdogs need not worry as long as the ruling classes are magnanimous with their power. :k:
Re: Unmarried guys
There’s always going to be room for abuse, a man can physically overpower a woman. So does that mean women are perpetually oppressed?
Re: Unmarried guys
I for one do not buy all this overpowering stuff ... There are many artful women who do not let their men overpower a feather ... We underestimate the art of healthy emotional manipulation. And by our obsession with physical dominance we are constantly teaching the subconscious that "men be softer or else you will be blamed for being overpowering, men be softer".
And as a result we get dominated ... Personally if men can overpower women and yet still be given the right to divorce then it means the women's ability to "underpower" men is far more effective and as a result to balance things out we are given this automatic right ... not 'cos we are favoured, but because we are the ones with the handicap.
Re: Unmarried guys
Stellar point, man. There’s always room for abuse, the world’s going to end anyway, there will always be poverty. What would Life1 be without hackneyed truisms. Why even bother with natural, legal, and civil rights. Social contract theorists must be perpetually oppressed. Or gay. Let’s all smoke weed and take a leap of faith that we’ll treat each other well. Legal recourse is over-rated anyway.
I love you guys, seriously. 
Re: Unmarried guys
Let's all smoke weed and take a leap of faith that we'll treat each other well.
Hey mannn don't judge us mannn!
Re: Unmarried guys
^ You're aight, brah. We'z coo'.
Re: Unmarried guys
And as a result we get dominated ... Personally if men can overpower women and yet still be given the right to divorce then it means the women's ability to "underpower" men is far more effective and as a result to balance things out we are given this automatic right ... not 'cos we are favoured, but because we are the ones with the handicap.
This situation reminds me of the guy with a gun in his hand but still feeling threatened by the person he is pointing the gun at. Probably why God gave him the gun, since the other guy effectively underpowers him.
Re: Unmarried guys
Equality does not mean justice. We’re assuming that gender is all about society and we’re forgetting that gender has to mean something and when we start to grasp God’s purpose for creating men and women only then we can start to understand the agenda of shariah. For a religious mind, the real equality is the equality of spirit and not the unattainable equality in this world, nowhere in our theology and spirituality can we see the sights of prioritizing male over the female principle, so when we have that cleared in our minds then we can start to look at shariah in true perspective.
Re: Unmarried guys
On a side note, I've seen women hating on women (for covering up, for not covering up, for getting married, for not getting married, for having kids, for not having kids, for being pretty, for being ugly, for having a rich husband, for having a poor husband, for working, for not working, for getting educated, for not getting educated and the list goes on and on and on) more often than men hating on women.
Re: Unmarried guys
Ok let's entertain the whole spectrum of how a certain decision can be construed.
Let's consider the man gives the offer for the woman to take the right of talaq on drawing up his nikkah:
a) Without being prompted he puts forth this offer
b) Being prompted he puts forth the offer
How does she respond to a)?
a1) She may think - "Wow, he is confident"
a1.1) Why is he so confident? Perhaps he wants fairness? Do I really want to be given the right to divorce him? Why is he talking about divorce before the nikkah ...???
a1.2) Perhaps he wants to end this marriage before it stars by forcing me to divorce him so he doesn't get the blame ... does he trust me?
a2) He wants to be fair and give me space, he trusts me ... I'll take his offer ...
How does he respond to her actions?
a2 - 1) She has accepted my offer to take the right of talaq - I hope she tries to work out things before threatening to divorce me
a2 - 2) Ok ... well now if she wants to leave fine ... plenty of fish in the sea ...
a2 - 3) I'm not too fond of her, but I can't bring myself to divorce her ... by giving her this right ... it will make my work easier ...
a2 - 4) Oh no ... what have I done !!!
How does he respond to b)?
b1) Why does she wanna talk about talaq before marriage? Oh, it's because of those men who beat their wives or who oppress them, but then she doesn't trust me ... she thinks I'm the same as those horrible men ...
b2) Ok ... She sounds like the sort of person who won't compromise to anything ... will this marriage be a calm one? I don't think so - She sounds quite assertive and if I say yes then she will dominate me ...
b3) I could say yes ... so she dominates me ... I would love to marry a dominatrix ...
b4) Yeah ... I'm the pro-fashional easy going desi guy ... there is no much that I will say no to ... She wants to be free - she probably has lots of male friends too ... not a problem I have loadsa female friends ... it's not like we own each other ... live and let live I say ..
b5) I'm only getting married cos my parents are on my case ... she wants the right to divorce it makes no difference to me ...
b6) Although I feel it a bit odd for them to ask for divorce - I can't let this opportunity go away, so I'll say yes and ensure that she does not threaten to divorce me by being a good human "all the time" (kidding himself) ... in order for her to never consider divorce as an option. Besides a woman does not want to be divorced - that gets her a bad rep ...
She in turn could think ... Why did he accept my request? I sure would not ...
Why would anyone want to take the "right" that will open up a field day for Satanic whispers?
If you ask me ... the nikkah selection process itself needs to improve so people can gauge what sort of man they are looking for ... unfortunately we don't look for good character anymore ... we go after looks and money and that is why marriage ends sour and a woman may be kept lingering in it.
Re: Unmarried guys
Equality does not mean justice. We're assuming that gender is all about society and we're forgetting that gender has to mean something and when we start to grasp God's purpose for creating men and women only then we can start to understand the agenda of shariah. For a religious mind, the real equality is the equality of spirit and not the unattainable equality in this world, nowhere in our theology and spirituality can we see the sights of prioritizing male over the female principle, so when we have that cleared in our minds then we can start to look at shariah in true perspective.
Not sure how this specifically addresses anything I've said. Let's examine "gender has to mean something." What does gender mean for a woman living in a backwater pind with no access to the court systems? What consolation is "equality of spirit" to her? One has to be insulated by privilege to state a religious/enlightened mind doesn't bother to attain equality in this world. What does that even mean? For that matter the chasm between the haves and have nots will always exist, why even attempt to redistribute wealth via charity? I'm no one to tell a woman to wait until she dies to receive justice. What principles do we live by while we're alive? If equality, or attempting to level the playing field, or widening the berth for accountability doesn't mean/promote justice, then what does? Does inequality mean justice then? What facilitates justice? The argument isn't that men and women are identical (as opposed to spiritually equal), but how is making divorce more difficult for the weaker/vulnerable sex just? How does "God's purpose for us" address the right of verbal divorce vs. having to file in court? How does the "meaning of gender" speak to the Sahih Hadiths that deem women emotionally volatile and mentally deficient as the basis for certain Shariah rulings? Interesting bit is that even Pakistani courts, to their credit, acknowledge these are real issues, does not apologize for them, and are constantly revising their approach.
I'm not making a value judgement when I say men are created a degree over women. It is a fact stated in the Quran. Hence the male principle IS prioritized. You seem to agree with the same when you entertain the fact that all religions are patriarchal.
ps. Ditto on women holding each other in contempt. We may be our own worst enemies. The moment we see another woman going against the grain there exists an instinctive need to reign her in.
Re: Unmarried guys
Some men are judging women based upon the type of women they married. :halo:
Re: Unmarried guys
And yea many of us - actually get married to good ones and we always wonder why it is totally opposite on GS and how GS managed to attract so many freaky and confused Desi women 
Re: Unmarried guys
Not sure how this specifically addresses anything I've said. Let's examine "gender has to mean something." What does gender mean for a woman living in a backwater pind with no access to the court systems? What consolation is "equality of spirit" to her? One has to be insulated by privilege to state a religious/enlightened mind doesn't bother to attain equality in this world. What does that even mean? For that matter the chasm between the haves and have nots will always exist, why even attempt to redistribute wealth via charity? I'm no one to tell a woman to wait until she dies to receive justice. What principles do we live by while we're alive? If equality, or attempting to level the playing field, or widening the berth for accountability doesn't mean/promote justice, then what does? Does inequality mean justice then? What facilitates justice? The argument isn't that men and women are identical (as opposed to spiritually equal), but how is making divorce more difficult for the weaker/vulnerable sex just? How does "God's purpose for us" address the right of verbal divorce vs. having to file in court? How does the "meaning of gender" speak to the Sahih Hadiths that deem women emotionally volatile and mentally deficient as the basis for certain Shariah rulings? Interesting bit is that even Pakistani courts, to their credit, acknowledge these are real issues, does not apologize for them, and are constantly revising their approach.
I'm not making a value judgement when I say men are created a degree over women. It is a fact stated in the Quran. Hence the male principle IS prioritized. You seem to agree with the same when you entertain the fact that all religions are patriarchal.
ps. Ditto on women holding each other in contempt. We may be our own worst enemies. The moment we see another woman going against the grain there exists an instinctive need to reign her in.
ugh...I wrote a long reply and it just logged me out. I'm not gonna bother arguing now, I don't agree with everything you say but I like reading your posts.
In short, I believe God is never guilty of futility and I'm in no position to question His laws, although, the interpretation of a verse or translation of a hadith can be wrong but what is clearly stated in Quran is the ultimate truth, and when it says men have a degree over women it means in outwardness and physical qualities, it doesn't mean men are better than women, in fact, women have an advantage when it comes to spiritual matters.
Now this can be proven by basic biology and about equality of rights in this world, even Germaine Greer suggests that the sexual liberation and gender revolution has harmed women more than men.
I believe, we should ask for opportunity and respect instead of equality.
ciao
Re: Unmarried guys
^I included few references in my post (which got lost) about the quick divorce rights for women in 70s and how it has caused family deterioration issues.
Re: Unmarried guys
Troll's winning
Re: Unmarried guys
I don't think Catskin was arguing for being patient in this world to receive justice in the Hereafter, rather I believe she was saying that although the world is perceived as being "patriarchal" that in itself does not mean unjust. It is only unjust in the minds of those people who feel society should not be patriarchal. And where outward disparity is found in favour of men, inward disparity is found in favour of women.
My argument about giving the power of divorce to the woman is this:
On one hand giving her power to divorce is giving her a right that she can ask for but for the man to give to her there is no argument about this ... but when she has it will it improve the marriage?
By not getting it given to her then she will not get married to that man in the first place, because that will be her condition, but if she does get it ... if she needs to exercise it - she has a quick way of getting out of a bad marriage. That is truly a perk and a blessing.
However if a man does not pass that right on to his wife ... it can be taken three ways only:
A) That he intends to oppress her in a long horrible relationship - i.e. He has evil intent
B) That he is not quite sure what she will do with that power - i.e. He does not know if he can trust his wife to be with that
C) That he loves her so much that he does not want to temp fate by considering terms for divorce before marriage is even being talked about
There is no harm in her asking for it as a condition of marriage ... but he is not obliged to give her that right, just as she is not obliged to marry him without that right. My contention was not that "she should not ask" - it was that he does not have to give ... it is his right to do so.