Unmarried guys

[Exodus]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Psyah bhai.

The limited knowledge that I may have suggests, tawfid al talak is perfectly acceptable in Islam, which clearly states the husband can delegate the sole right of one talak to the wife. Now keeping in mind the emotional driving force most speak of, the husband is equally free to delegate the right of talak with fair conditions applied for it to be considered valid as well. For example, a certain number of people assigned and with mutual consent of the husband and the wife to go through with the reasons for which the wife called it quits.

Thoughts?

Now, I'm really not doubting anyones knowledge regarding the aforementioned issue in hand, rather just a slave of seeking knowledge/understanding of things we all may have to deal with at some point of our lives.

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Psyah bhai.

The limited knowledge that I may have suggests, tawfid al talak is perfectly acceptable in Islam, which clearly states the husband can delegate the sole right of one talak to the wife. Now keeping in mind the emotional driving force most speak of, the husband is equally free to delegate the right of talak with fair conditions applied for it to be considered valid as well. For example, a certain number of people assigned and with mutual consent of the husband and the wife to go through with the reasons for which the wife called it quits.

Thoughts?

Now, I'm really not doubting anyones knowledge regarding the aforementioned issue in hand, rather just a slave of seeking knowledge/understanding of things we all may have to deal with at some point of our lives.

Peace Exodus

Indeed your knowledge MashaAllah in this matter is far better than mine to have stated such things above ... I have however a few points to make ...

a) The husband delegates
b) One talak delegated
c) Group consent

If I had any thoughts on this matter then it appears from a) the choice or option is not a normal condition but a concession. Secondly the woman has the right to separate but not the right to divorce according to b) and even then it is by group agreement ...

If this is the case then it is even less than what I have been entertaining ... either way my point stems from the basis of what is "preferable and normal" not what is "acceptable within the limits".

I have not been saying that it is not allowed ... I have been saying that it is generally not wise to allow it ... with such tight regulation on "tafwid al talaq" it confirms my point.

[nadeemnirvana]

Re: Unmarried guys

If the man or woman wants a divorce in todays society it would not take long for them to acheive thier goal, whatever is written in the naka nama.

[Exodus]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Exodus

Indeed your knowledge MashaAllah in this matter is far better than mine to have stated such things above ... I have however a few points to make ...

a) The husband delegates b) One talak delegated c) Group consent

If I had any thoughts on this matter then it appears from a) the choice or option is not a normal condition but a concession. Secondly the woman has the right to separate but not the right to divorce according to b) and even then it is by group agreement ...

If this is the case then it is even less than what I have been entertaining ... either way my point stems from the basis of what is "preferable and normal" not what is "acceptable within the limits".

I have not been saying that it is not allowed ... I have been saying that it is generally not wise to allow it ... with such tight regulation on "tafwid al talaq" it confirms my point.

Peace Psyah bhai

The condition that was provided was just a mere example of the endless others (whatever the husband/wife deem right and on a mutual consent'ial basis) that can be utilized at the time of signing the contract. It may look tough/complicated to some but it may just come as a pleasant and worthwhile experience to the one eventually benefiting from it.

So according to what I understand, providing/delegating the right of talak to the wife is completely acceptable and hence if a wife asks for it. She's free to have it. Regardless of all the complications involved.

Peace Brother. :-)

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Psyah bhai

The condition that was provided was just a mere example of the endless others (whatever the husband/wife deem right and on a mutual consent'ial basis) that can be utilized at the time of signing the contract. It may look tough/complicated to some but it may just come as a pleasant and worthwhile experience to the one eventually benefiting from it.

So according to what I understand, providing/delegating the right of talak to the wife is completely acceptable and hence if a wife asks for it. She's free to have it. Regardless of all the complications involved.

Peace Brother. :-)

Peace Exodus

I understand ... so what you are saying is that the standard template nikka nama is deceptively taking that option away from women?

However, please answer whether the nikkah can be drawn so women give mahr to men? Or if man revokes his right to divorce?

Are any of these conditions possible or allowed? Is the nikkah totally flexible or are there basic conditions on it no matter what?

What I am coming to is the question ... "Is there a preferable format for nikkah as opposed to what is acceptable?" ...

[Exodus]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Exodus

I understand ... so what you are saying is that the standard template nikka nama is deceptively taking that option away from women?

However, please answer whether the nikkah can be drawn so women give mahr to men? Or if man revokes his right to divorce?

Are any of these conditions possible or allowed? Is the nikkah totally flexible or are there basic conditions on it no matter what?

What I am coming to is the question ... "Is there a preferable format for nikkah as opposed to what is acceptable?" ...

Peace Psyah bhai.

My question to you was simply in response to the endless disagreements/confusions that somehow were misguiding a few (including me) to believe that the right to delegate the right of talak to a wife was somehow a religiously non preferable act.

I do not believe I ever suggested/proposed the template of the nikkah nama was deceiving women from any angle. What I was merely speaking about was the clause predefined within the nikkah nama, which according to you/my sister/myself and the general consensus found suggests that delegating the RIGHT of talak to a wife is completely permissible, acceptable and rightful. Regardless if the clause/provision is defined within the template of the contract/nikkah nama found in Pakistan or not.

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Psyah bhai.

My question to you was simply in response to the endless disagreements/confusions that somehow were misguiding a few (including me) to believe that the right to delegate the right of talak to a wife was somehow a religiously non preferable act.

I do not believe I ever suggested/proposed the template of the nikkah nama was deceiving women from any angle. What I was merely speaking about was the clause predefined within the nikkah nama, which according to you/my sister/myself and the general consensus found suggests that delegating the RIGHT of talak to a wife is completely permissible, acceptable and rightful. Regardless if the clause/provision is defined within the template of the contract/nikkah nama found in Pakistan or not.

So I was suggesting that there is a preferable format ... that of the talak to be with the man and not with the woman, deviation to which is considered acceptable concession. I was not saying that it is not preferable, but that it is not the preference.

Whereas ... Are you saying that whether the talak right is given to the woman or not or for that matter with the man or not, it is only considered permissible if both parties agree and there is no such thing as a preferable or standard format where this option exists?

[Exodus]

Re: Unmarried guys

So I was suggesting that there is a preferable format ... that of the talak to be with the man and not with the woman, deviation to which is considered acceptable concession. I was not saying that it is not preferable, but that it is not the preference.

Whereas ... Are you saying that whether the talak right is given to the woman or not or for that matter with the man or not, it is only considered permissible if both parties agree and there is no such thing as a preferable or standard format where this option exists?

Peace Psyah Bhai.

What I understand from the above post.

If the Wife asks, it is the husbands call if he wants to provide the wife with the right to divorce herself or not. With or without stipulating conditions. It may not be the preferable practice to us (men), but it sure is a right to the women who seek for it.

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Psyah Bhai.

What I understand from the above post.

If the Wife asks, it is the husbands call if he wants to provide the wife with the right to divorce herself or not. With or without stipulating conditions. It may not be the preferable practice to us (men), but it sure is a right to the women who seek for it.

Peace Exodus

Agreed ... there is no real difference in this than any other conditional nikkah ... First of all I have now read up about Talaq Tafwid and it is something which is brought out of ijtehad and not from the Sunnah.

Furthermore I have learned that tafwid is only valid if the husband gives the right to the wife ... otherwise it is not valid, she may seek it and it may get rejected. It is then her choice to proceed with the marriage or not ... while in a marriage where she has not got this right written in to the contract then she does not have automatic right to it. My whole initial argument has been about automatic right that cannot be overturned ...

Mahr must be given it cannot be overturned
A man always has automatic right to give talaq and cannot be revoked, but the woman to have that right must have it written on the nikkah contract after being given permission by the husband at the time of drawing the contract.

Also a woman may have other things written on the contract as a condition to the marriage ... if the man does not uphold them then she can seek khula ...

It is not about what is preferable to men ... holding on to a sour relationship is as bad for a man as a woman ... I am trying to gauge the divine guidance of nikkah ... there are in my understanding two aspects:

a) The Divine Rules
b) The Mutual Agreement

The Divine Rules cannot be overturned in any marriage contract ... however aspects of mutual agreement (of which tafwid is one) becomes binding ... but it is possible that two people mutually agree on something which is harmful to them but it is still binding since there is a contract in place ... The Divine Rules however will never be harmful ... or rather never be the greater of two possible harms.

Furthermore the basic nikkah will still be valid if all divine rules are followed and no conditions attached.

[Southie]

Re: Unmarried guys

“Interesting point…like…if woman goes crazy during PMS…and decides to do it… and then later on , regains her sanity… interesting point ”

As opposed to some who are crazy more often than not.

[Exodus]

Re: Unmarried guys

Peace Exodus

Agreed ... there is no real difference in this than any other conditional nikkah ... First of all I have now read up about Talaq Tafwid and it is something which is brought out of ijtehad and not from the Sunnah.

Furthermore I have learned that tafwid is only valid if the husband gives the right to the wife ... otherwise it is not valid, she may seek it and it may get rejected. It is then her choice to proceed with the marriage or not ... while in a marriage where she has not got this right written in to the contract then she does not have automatic right to it. My whole initial argument has been about automatic right that cannot be overturned ...

Mahr must be given it cannot be overturned A man always has automatic right to give talaq and cannot be revoked, but the woman to have that right must have it written on the nikkah contract after being given permission by the husband at the time of drawing the contract.

Also a woman may have other things written on the contract as a condition to the marriage ... if the man does not uphold them then she can seek khula ...

It is not about what is preferable to men ... holding on to a sour relationship is as bad for a man as a woman ... I am trying to gauge the divine guidance of nikkah ... there are in my understanding two aspects:

a) The Divine Rules b) The Mutual Agreement

The Divine Rules cannot be overturned in any marriage contract ... however aspects of mutual agreement (of which tafwid is one) becomes binding ... but it is possible that two people mutually agree on something which is harmful to them but it is still binding since there is a contract in place ... The Divine Rules however will never be harmful ... or rather never be the greater of two possible harms.

Furthermore the basic nikkah will still be valid if all divine rules are followed and no conditions attached.

Peace Psyah bhai.

First and foremost, worth appreciating/commendable is the fact that we've finally reached upon a mutual agreement of opinions/views. Comes as no less than a fresh/pleasant breath of air. However do forgive the Brother for any mistakes he may have managed to make along the way unintentionally.

The ultimate right indeed lies with the Husband principally and primarily, there was no denying (as obvious in my previous post) about it. However the wife as well has been left with a few credible options to choose from, which clearly would be to seek for the rights she's been given.

According to the tafwid, the husband not only has the authority to hand over the right to delegate to the wife, he can also to a 3rd party and on mutual consent of the husband and the wife. Even though it ought to be the most least preferable right to be given to some of us, it is however something he could do if both choose to go ahead with it.

The divine rules you mentioned of are indeed unquestionable and harmless to mankind. Conversely however, there are no reasons for us not to take up or utilize the benefits of the "mutual agreements" you also mentioned. I just believe it leaves room for the women to feel less insecure and more powerful, maybe not entirely on an even scale but reasonable amounts is indeed harmless and rightfully for their own very sake.

Thought I'd share a few excerpts that may well have the potential to enlighten us all about the very subject being discussed.

[QUOTE]
This is based upon the incident where the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave his wives the option to remain in his marriage or be divorced. Allah Most High said to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace):

“O Prophet! Say to your wives: “If it be that you desire the life of this world, and its glitter, then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner. But if you seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward.” (Surah al-Ahzab, 28)

The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) deserted his wives for a period of around one month, after which the above verse was revealed.

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) narrates: “When the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) was commanded to give an option (of divorce) to his wives, he started with me saying: “I am going to mention to you a matter in which you should not (decide) hastily until you have consulted your parents.” She (A’isha) said that he already knew that my parents would never instruct me to seek separation from him. She said: “Then he said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, said: “O Prophet, say to your wives: If it be that you desire the life of this World, and its glitter, then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner. But if you seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward.” Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) says that I said to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace): “About this should I consult my parents, for I desire Allah and His Messenger and the abode of the Hereafter?” She (A’isha) said: “Then all the wives of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) did as I had done.” (Sahih Muslim, no. 1475)

Sayyida A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) also narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) gave us the option (m: to remain with him or to be divorced), so we chose (and preferred) Allah and His Messenger. Giving us that option was not regarded as a divorce.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 4962)

Imam al-Sarakhsi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“If a man delegates the right to divorce to his wife, then this is similar to giving an option (khiyar) in trade, except that this is completely valid and logical, for the husband is the owner of issuing the divorce, thus he is in a position of delegating something that he owns. Hence, it will be binding, in that the husband will not have the right to revoke this delegation.” (al-Mabsut, 7/221)

The Companions (Sahaba, Allah be pleased with them all) also unanimously agreed upon the validity of delegating the right to divorce to the wife. (See: al-Mawsili, al-Ikhtiyar li ta’lil al-Mukhtar, 2/166 & Zaylai’i, Nab al-Raya, 3/229)
[/QUOTE]

[chaibiskut]

Re: Unmarried guys

Quran doesn't say why men are given this right so let's not assume that it has something to do with men being more patient and unemotional/fish-like creatures.

The fact that they're given this right says a lot in itself. As for why. The Quran states it's because they've been made to 'excel' over women, apart from being their protectors and maintainers. "Sahih" Hadiths (unanimously accepted unless you're a 'progressive revisionist') testify to women being emotional, irrational, and mentally deficient. That's why 2 of us equal 1 man in legal testimony, why a nation led by a woman is cursed, why we comprise the bulk of Hell's occupants.

All religions are patriarchal, it's just a matter of degree. Islam is no exception.

[Sara516]

Re: Unmarried guys

@psyah

Peace all

The man’s automatic right for talaq, and the woman’s right to seek Khula are already the divine balance. If a man grants the right for talaq to his wife then … For one thing it will not lead to a lasting marriage.

In my experience men are less likely to utter talaq … And many times I hear the words “then divorce me” by the women folk … I fear with their spontaneity coupled with the power to divorce, marriages just would not last too long.

I’m not being sexist … Just stating what I have seen and experienced.

Gross.

@NomiCA

Interesting point…like…if woman goes crazy during PMS…and decides to do it… and then later on , regains her sanity… interesting point

Stop being retarded. That never happens. If anything…it’s the man who says that kind of stuff out of anger…not the women.

[Catskin]

Re: Unmarried guys

@chaibiskut

The fact that they're given this right says a lot in itself. As for why. The Quran states it's because they've been made to 'excel' over women, apart from being their protectors and maintainers. "Sahih" Hadiths (unanimously accepted unless you're a 'progressive revisionist') testify to women being emotional, irrational, and mentally deficient. That's why 2 of us equal 1 man in legal testimony, why a nation led by a woman is cursed, why we comprise the bulk of Hell's occupants.

All religions are patriarchal, it's just a matter of degree. Islam is no exception.

Interesting bit is that the same Quranic verse talks about the similar right of divore for women but most people always miss that out.

All religions might be patriarchal but at the same time we can't really equate patriarchy with oppression or injustice, IMHO.

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

@Sara516

Gross.

Agreed it is ...

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

@Exodus

Peace Psyah bhai.

First and foremost, worth appreciating/commendable is the fact that we've finally reached upon a mutual agreement of opinions/views. Comes as no less than a fresh/pleasant breath of air. However do forgive the Brother for any mistakes he may have managed to make along the way unintentionally.

The ultimate right indeed lies with the Husband principally and primarily, there was no denying (as obvious in my previous post) about it. However the wife as well has been left with a few credible options to choose from, which clearly would be to seek for the rights she's been given.

According to the tafwid, the husband not only has the authority to hand over the right to delegate to the wife, he can also to a 3rd party and on mutual consent of the husband and the wife. Even though it ought to be the most least preferable right to be given to some of us, it is however something he could do if both choose to go ahead with it.

The divine rules you mentioned of are indeed unquestionable and harmless to mankind. Conversely however, there are no reasons for us not to take up or utilize the benefits of the "mutual agreements" you also mentioned. I just believe it leaves room for the women to feel less insecure and more powerful, maybe not entirely on an even scale but reasonable amounts is indeed harmless and rightfully for their own very sake.

Thought I'd share a few excerpts that may well have the potential to enlighten us all about the very subject being discussed.

SubhanAllah ya akh there is nothing to forgive if anything you have come to me as a guide and gave to me from your knowledge.

In the context of women being held in sour marriages then it is a gift to have it ... But I fear those marriages that are likely to end up sour will not be the sorts where the husband gives that option anyway.

If the husband gives the option then it may be taken up by the wife. Initially it will give the woman a safety net for entering a marriage ... And hence promote getting married ... Conversely it will also be a means for exiting a marriage even when there has been poor to little attempt to reconcile them.

Also, by the Hadith that you mentioned, a layman like myself can't put the same criteria ... Imagine that ... If you stay in marriage with me you will earn paradise, but if you wanna go free ... I'll send you away with handsome profit ...

According to the Hadith the prophet (SAW) gave this right after he was in the marriage ... He was not held on a condition of nikkah for it.

Yet by him (SAW) giving this option ... The scales did tip in their favour ... To choose to come out of marriage ... However, those women also never the had the option to re-marry as they are the mother of believers.

Then the ills of modernity are also present amongst us today ... I'm not sure how much experience you have in marriage ... but my experience is that the word divorce is on the lips of people ready to be uttered.

[NaMaan]

Re: Unmarried guys

Nikkah is an agreement . . . you can include whatever in it , as long as both parties agree .

[psyah]

Re: Unmarried guys

@NaMaan

Nikkah is an agreement . . . you can include whatever in it , as long as both parties agree .

Technically that is not true.

For example, it is haram to draw up a contract that is based on rib'a even if both parties agree to it. Likewise, there are parts of nikkah which are not allowed to be drawn up ... even with mutual consent.

[Demilitarize]

Re: Unmarried guys

.

[Demilitarize]

Re: Unmarried guys

Just cos a woman asks for right of divorce, does not mean she's planning on using it.

After all a man has an unwritten right of divorce (unwritten in Nikahnama but it's there isn't it?)

If there was a clause in the written nikah nama
clause 18b = husband granted right to divorce ______________

and they say yes to it, does that mean the guy is looking to divorce? the nikahnama is very badly worded tbh, why bother putting clause 18 there and letting it be a cause of conflict?