Undoubtedly the Soldiers shot, no dispute about that. What they were shooting at remains to be seen. Given the propensity of some groups to endorse various conspiracy theories, I find it hard to believe that there is no suspicion on your part that this was a set up.
The death of innocents is a terrible thing. It is also a valuable propaganda tool for anyone who is anti-US. We have seen that over and over, and therefore I do not automatically ascribe guilt to the American troops as you do.
American troops were indeed more cautious, as any group organized to celebrate Saddam becomes immediately more suspect. People should have more sense than to gather in huge crowds ranting at armed men. Send a town leader to quietly discuss the movement of troops out of the building and more often than not, the troops would have moved. The "protest" was a provocation or a cover and you all know it.
Any soldier under the Laws of War has the right to self defense. If innocents are in the way he may choose to hold his fire, but he is not obligated to. The reason for this is very clear. If an opposing soldier was required to hold his fire, then hostage taking would be the norm, and more civilians would be in jeopardy.
Lastly, these troops are the 82nd airborne. They are more experienced troops, with most of the Brigades already having served in Afghanistan. These are not conscripts, green troops and they are well trained. They would have much better fire discipline than draftees. The US troops know that every incident will be microscopically reviewed, and their rules of engagement are very detailed, and skewed to prevent problems rather than create them. I am not endorsing the killing of innocents. But this is Iraq. There is no shortage of brutal Saddam loyalists who have nowhere to run, and in their desperation would do anything. Given the brutal nature of this regime, it is not at all far fetched to think that they would create an incident which either kills American troops or creates an international incident, as this has. This is a win-win for those who would attempt it.
As to the future, US soldiers are troops, not police. I suspect that this town will be reinforced with lots of troops and put under martial law until the Baath loyalists are rounded up or killed. That's what happens in war.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Given the propensity of some groups to endorse various conspiracy theories, I find it hard to believe that there is no suspicion on your part that this was a set up.
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Oh the irony! For someone who makes up his own you are quick to point fingers.
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Originally posted by Ohioguy: Undoubtedly the Soldiers shot, no dispute about that. What they were shooting at remains to be seen.
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Has anybody else apart from the American soldiers claimed that they (US soldiers) were shot at? And you still have failed to explain why US soldiers had taken over a local school for their military purposes?
Why is it that that American's find it hard to take responsibilty for such acts, and admit they were wrong? Have the lives of Iraqi's, especially babies and children become so cheap to you?
Weapons caches have been discovered in at least 500 schools in Baghdad alone. Your anti-Ameicanism lets you ignore these facts while wondering why Americans were in a school.
"One major problem is the huge number of weapons caches on ‘‘almost every city block,’’ Blount said. U.S. troops have been clearing weapons and ammunition from almost every school in Baghdad, removing more than 50 truckloads of munitions every day. "
Sort of hard to reopen schools when filled with explosives.
And look at the picture of the protestors you posted. Those are men of military age. To imagine that some of them would be armed and fedayeen is not a far stretch.
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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
And look at the picture of the protestors you posted. Those are men of military age. To imagine that some of them would be armed and fedayeen is not a far stretch.
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Another great logic by the trigger happy invaders. Every time you see men of military age assume that they are fedayeen and shoot them and in the process also kill children. After all they are Iraqi children, why bother. Why are these fedayeen still prepared to die for Saddam? Is he still active? Is he still paying them?
You accept everything your government says so why dont you accept the fact that Saddams government is finsihed, the people of Eye raq are free. Isn't this what the great liberator has been shouting from the rooftops in Washington? Do you doubt him? If not then please explain the logic of fedayeen trying to die for a non existent leader and government.
Weapons caches have been discovered in at least 500 schools in Baghdad alone**
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Is that what they are claiming these days? A few weeks they encamped in girls schools and even churches to use for military purposes, and the locals complained. Now the American's have come with an excuse for it after all these weeks. They can't find any WMD, but find other "weapons" everywhere they go. Now you failed to address the core question. Has anybody else apart from the American soldiers claimed that they (US soldiers) were shot at?
How difficult it is for American's to take responsibilty or apologise for slaughtering babies and children, but we see plenty of excuses made for these crimes. Iraq has become's America's Palestine cum Vietnam, and we will see more such atrocties by US occupation soldiers, and more and more excuses for these crimes.
the international community silently watches....compare the difference wen a single american dies and wen several iraqis die
wenever theres a suicide bombing in israel....CNN repeates the video for atleast 2 days.....they showed hardy anything of this incident....it was al jazeera which covered it.
**Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
....
Weapons caches have been discovered in at least 500 schools in Baghdad alone. Your anti-Ameicanism lets you ignore these facts while wondering why Americans were in a school. *
They could have left the school after removing the "cache", duh!!
*And look at the picture of the protestors you posted. Those are men of military age. To imagine that some of them would be armed and fedayeen is not a far stretch. *
So please tell Iraqis that certain age group CANNOT demonstrate in future, I'm sure they will listen.
:moron icon:
I can see some AK's in the pic, but they look like human-hand to me... what do you think?
The Americans shot into the crowd on a pretence that they came under fire and every gullible American seems to accept it as the Gospel truth. If was the Samuel Jackson 'Rules of Engagement' movie, then maybe you can argue the point or maybe you are arguing that the children had weapons but were quickly picked up by the local police and the video tape went missing!
The only thing that was most probably fired at them was water and naan breads!
Why don't you accept that the Americans Soldiers have a very good track record for killing their own and Iraqis are way down the list.
All you need to say is yes, they were wrong for firing and should be court marshalled and tried as war criminals.
However, on a realistic point, we've got as much chance of that as we have of America telling the Truth.
I absolutely positively believe that any troops that shoot innocents without a real threat should be investigated and court marshalled if called for. Our military should not cover it up, and the truth should be told.
But the circumstances are highly suspicious, and you guys are doing what you are programmed to do, react to civilain deaths by immediately blaming the US, without considering the circumstances the situation, or even the remotest possibility that the incident could have been incited.
The reports that there were no weapons in the crowd came from residents. Please tell me that if the Fedayeen were in their town, that the residents, even if they knew it to be true, could say, "There were five Feadyeen guys who drove up in a car and started firing with AK-47's. They would have their throats slit in the middle of the night!
The only reason I am not inclined to believe the residents now is that the Baathist party has a proven history of brutal intimidation. I would bet you that a month from now when the Fedayeen are definitely gone, that the story will change. That has been my logic.....
Why would the residents be afraid of the Fedayeen, when the whole country is littered with American and Bristish soldiers armed to their teeth?
Are you now saying that despite Saddams removal, people are still scared to tell the Truth and the Coalition cannot and will not help the oppressed?
I didn't see too much fear when the looting and pulling down of Saddams statues was taking place. Furthermore, noone hid their face on camera when openly cursing Saddam.
Maybe Saddam was actually in the crowd and was the one who pulled the gun on the American Soldiers!
The reports that there were no weapons in the crowd came from residents. Please tell me that if the Fedayeen were in their town, that the residents, even if they knew it to be true, could say, "There were five Feadyeen guys who drove up in a car and started firing with AK-47's. They would have their throats slit in the middle of the night!
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OhioGuy, please.. this is not state controlled TV where you have to keep repeating concocted scary scenarios to frighten the public.
There are no fidayeens and if there are and that wield enough of an influence to systametically murder people, then the declaration of 'victory' came a little too soon IMO.
No one has declared victory. Tomorrow Bush may declare that "Major combat has ended". Plenty of rooting out of Saddam loyalists to go..... Sort of nice of them to draw attention to this town through some protests to give us a hint as to where the loyalists are!
The really pathetic thing is that IF the loyalists battle plan is to set up situations where atrocities can occur to sway world opinion, then apparently it has worked, and we can expect more of the same.
A town with people out celebrating Saddam's birthday is immediately suspect. The sooner that town is stabilized the better.