U.S. troops kill 15 Iraqi protestors, including children (merged)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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**Two More Protesters Killed in Iraqi Town **
Wed Apr 30,11:51 AM ET

By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent

FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. troops opened fire on anti-American demonstrators for the second time this week as Iraqis marched Wednesday to protest the previous shooting. The city’s mayor said two people were killed and 14 wounded in the clash.

**
U.S. Central Command said soldiers in a convoy passing the demonstrators were shot at, and then returned fire. But city officials who witnessed the incident said they saw or heard no shooting from among the protesters.
**

There was no immediate indication of American casualties.

The gunfire came less than 48 hours after a shooting during a demonstration Monday night that hospital officials said killed 13 Iraqis.

The clashes in Fallujah, a conservative Sunni Muslim city and Baath Party stronghold 30 miles west of Baghdad, reflect the area’s increasing tensions as American troops try to keep the peace in Iraq (news - web sites).

About 1,000 residents marching down Fallujah’s main street stopped Wednesday in front of a battalion headquarters of the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division, in a compound formerly occupied by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s Baath Party. The demonstrators carried signs condemning Monday night’s shooting.

This was no peaceful demonstration, the Americans insisted. They said protesters threw rocks and shoes; Maj. Michael Marti, an intelligence officer for the division’s 2nd Brigade, said a vehicle window was broken by what was believed to be automatic weapons fire.

Lt. Col. Tobin Green, commander of the 2nd squadron of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, which is taking over from the 82nd Airborne in Fallujah, said a six-vehicle convoy was shot at and responded with gunfire.

“The evildoers are deliberately placing at risk the good civilians. These are deliberate actions by the enemy to use the population as cover,” said Green.

U.S. Central Command in Doha, Qatar, said American forces fired in response to rock-throwing and weapons fire.

“The convoy returned fire, and the crowd was dispersed by the arrival of coalition helicopters,” said Capt. Stewart Upton, a Central Command spokesman.

Fallujah Mayor Taha Bedaiwi al-Alwani said two people were killed and 14 wounded and asked for an investigation and compensation for victims.

After a meeting Wednesday with U.S. troops, the mayor said U.S. soldiers have been asked to stay away from mosques, residential areas and other sensitive places. The Americans agreed to study the request.

“Many people believe these are occupying forces. And many of them are still cautious until they see their intentions,” said al-Alwani, a former Iraqi exile and opponent of the previous regime.

U.S. Apache attack helicopters circled the site throughout the march and for hours afterward, barely skimming the tops of the tiled-roof minarets of Fallujah, known as “the city of mosques.”

U.S. officers met with the mayor and leading area sheiks in hopes of reducing the tensions, while several dozen demonstrators clustered angrily outside the town hall.

“Get out, get out!” one protester shouted at soldiers guarding the meeting.

“We will keep this up, we will keep them on edge,” said another protester, 29-year-old Abdul Adim Mohammed Hussein.

Emerging from the meeting, the imam of the Grand Fallujah Mosque, Jamal Shaqir Mahmood, said “The Americans said ‘we won’t reduce the numbers, they’re needed for security.’ But the people of Fallujah told them we already have security.”

During Saddam’s rule, Fallujah was a stronghold of the ruling Baath Party, in part because of the presence of key chemical and other factories of the regime’s military-industrial complex that provided jobs to workers and generated wealth to local businessmen.

Fallujah sent many of its young men to elite regime units such as the Republican Guard and Special Republican Guard, and the fall of Saddam threatens the city’s network of privilege and power.

The American forces have given no indication they might cut back their presence here. However, U.S. forces did leave their station at the school where Monday’s shooting took place.

From the back of a pickup truck, Jamal addressed a crowd of 250 people Wednesday.

“We demand the Americans leave this place,” Jamal said. “(But) please don’t confront the U.S. troops.”

As they did after Wednesday’s incident, Americans and Iraqis have given sharply differing accounts of Monday night’s shooting. Paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne said they opened fire only upon armed men — about 25 infiltrators among a crowd of 200. Protesters insisted their demonstration was unarmed and peaceful.

Dr. Ahmed Ghandim al-Ali, director of Fallujah’s general hospital, said the clash Monday killed 13 Iraqis — including three young boys — and injured about 75. Some residents put the death toll higher, at 15.

**No Americans were injured. **

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its obvious that they were not fired at thats why no americans were injured yesterday and none today. do they have any CREDIBLE evidence / proof to show that they were fired at before they fired back? i don’t think so. their word is not enough to justify the killings of these innocent civilians.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
No one has declared victory. Tomorrow Bush may declare that "Major combat has ended". Plenty of rooting out of Saddam loyalists to go..... Sort of nice of them to draw attention to this town through some protests to give us a hint as to where the loyalists are!

The really pathetic thing is that IF the loyalists battle plan is to set up situations where atrocities can occur to sway world opinion, then apparently it has worked, and we can expect more of the same.

A town with people out celebrating Saddam's birthday is immediately suspect. The sooner that town is stabilized the better.
[/QUOTE]

many american's don't like BUSH as well and many do like him. Should those who hate him go house to house and target everyone who likes Bush? :-)

talk abt liberation and democracy. this is worse than dictatorship and not surprisingly its coming from the americans. they think they are CIVILIZED PEOPLE & NATION. - Baba

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Very interesting point to the unhappy shooting of the general population by the USA-invaders is.....there has been basically NO such incidents in the British controlled cities.

Me thinks that the British forces (having all had a stint in Ireland) have better commanders and more experienced soldiers that can handle situations of aggressive crowds better. The USA-invaders are just that little more callous (like their supporters) and more trigger happy.

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An interesting read by Felicity Arbuthnot, a British journalist.
Fallujah - A Shooting Too Far?

And some comments regarding the simmering anger in Fallujah:
Town vents its anger at US, BBC, 30 April 2003

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A more detailed account:

Despite the almost daily arrests of senior officials and no sign of the fallen Iraqi leader, far less euphoria over Hussein’s toppling has been visible in Fallujah than elsewhere in the country. Residents here, overwhelmingly Sunni Muslim, had been regarded as some of the most staunch supporters of Hussein outside his home town of Tikrit. Many members of Hussein’s best-trained army units, the Republican Guard, were drawn from Fallujah and surrounding areas.

Although the city was captured in early April by U.S. Special Operations units, they departed more than two weeks ago and handed over control to other Army units. But those soldiers subsequently left, leaving a power vacuum in the city until the 82nd Airborne’s arrival on Friday.

In the interim, some residents had been rehanging pictures of Hussein ripped down only days earlier. On Monday, even with U.S. troops in the city, several dozen young men decided to celebrate Hussein’s 66th birthday, walking down the main street and firing rifles into the air. They were dispersed by soldiers, but regrouped and resumed their march, witnesses said.

On Monday evening, U.S. officers said they witnessed a sharp increase in gunfire, which they attributed to the birthday celebrations. At about 7:30 p.m., about 100 young men, many firing weapons into the air, converged on the mayor’s office, where Nantz said he was holding a meeting. He said soldiers used loudspeakers to disperse the crowd, warning in Arabic that the gathering “could be considered a hostile act and would be engaged with deadly force.”

Although the group dispersed, he said it jelled again about 15 minutes later outside the command post of the 325th Regiment’s Alpha Company. Again, U.S. forces used loudspeakers to scatter the protesters. A short while later, Nantz said, the demonstrators regrouped yet again and moved toward the school, growing in number along the way so that by the time they reached Hay Nazzal Street, they numbered about 200.

According to two injured demonstrators interviewed in the city hospital today and three men who live across the street from the school – two of whom also were seriously injured – the protesters were a boisterous but unarmed group. They wanted the soldiers to clear out so pupils could return, the five men said. Others in this conservative city were upset that U.S. soldiers were using night-vision goggles and could see into courtyards and onto rooftops, where women often sleep outside in the hot weather.

“They didn’t have any guns,” said one of the neighbors, Muthanna Saleh, whose right foot was amputated after he suffered what he said were shrapnel injuries. “I’m sure of it.”

But three other witnesses said they saw some of the protesters shooting into the air as they approached the school, although none said they saw anybody shoot directly at the school. The demonstrators were chanting “Down with U.S.A.” and a once-common slogan here: “With our souls and our blood, we sacrifice ourselves for you, Saddam.”

Ramadan Saleh, a restaurant employee who witnessed the shooting, said he heard some of the demonstrators urging on others by saying: “We must celebrate this day.”

Some of the witnesses said they believed the firing into the air spooked the soldiers, who began shooting at the demonstrators. Others insisted that the U.S. firing was largely unprovoked, save for some rocks that were hurled over the schoolhouse gates.

“It was a random shooting without justification,” said Arrawi, the city council member.

Soldiers inside the compound described a sharply different scene. When the protesters neared the school, they said, the trajectory of the gunfire changed. Instead of shooting into the air, the demonstrators began to target soldiers stationed on the roof and the second floor of the building, they said.

“We’ve been sitting here taking fire for three days in the air,” said a U.S. soldier who would not provide his name. “When they marched down the road and when they started shooting at the compound, there was nothing left for us to do but defend ourselves. They were shooting at us from all directions.”

The soldier, who said he was on the rooftop but not among those who returned fire, said the soldiers “weren’t just spraying bullets into the street. We were squeezing single-round, well-placed shots.”

Lt. Wes Davidson, who was on the second floor, said the soldiers initially threw smoke grenades into the streets to disperse the crowd. When that failed, they launched flares to illuminate the street. He said the soldiers who returned fire had night-vision scopes and aimed at muzzle flashes.

When the soldiers returned fire, he said, bedlam ensued on the street, with many of the protesters running for cover, while others sought to join the fight by climbing over walls from neighboring houses. When gunmen were felled, he said, others rushed to pick up their weapons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56969-2003Apr29.html

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
Who were the people celebrating Saddam’s birthday?
[/QUOTE]

The Iraqis. Got it.

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US troops open fire again on Fallujah crowd](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=401798)

US troops opened fire today on anti-American demonstrators for the second time this week, during a march to protest about the previous shootings. At least one person was reported to have been killed and 16 wounded.

The gunfire came less than 48 hours after a shooting during a demonstration on Monday night that hospital officials said killed 13 Iraqis.

The clashes in Fallujah, a conservative Sunni Muslim city and Baath Party stronghold 30 miles west of Baghdad, reflect the area’s increasing tensions as American troops try to keep the peace in Iraq.

**About 1,000 residents were marching down Fallujah’s main street and stopped in front of a battalion headquarters of the US Army’s 82nd Airborne Division, in a compound formerly occupied by Saddam Hussein’s Baath Party. The demonstrators were carrying signs condemning Monday night’s shooting.

Protesters started throwing rocks and shoes at the compound and troops opened fire about 10:30 a.m. (0630 GMT), scattering the demonstrators. Demonstrators then returned to pick up the wounded.**

Medical staff at the Fallujah hospital said a 30-year-old man was killed, another man was in critical condition and 15 others were wounded.

Some witnesses said the gunfire appeared to come from within the compound, but Maj. Michael Marti, an intelligence officer for the division’s 2nd Brigade, said the soldiers in a passing convoy fired on the crowd. “My understanding is that there was no fire from the compound.”

As the convoy was passing, the demonstrators “started throwing rocks and then at one point, they (soldiers) were engaged by what they believed was an AK-47” and opened fire, Marti said.

City officials who witnessed the gunfire said they saw or heard no shooting from among the protesters.

US Apache attack helicopters circled the site throughout the march and the aftermath, but did not open fire. US officers were meeting with Fallujah mayor Taha Bedaiwi al-Alwani and leading area sheiks.

“Why? The demonstrators didn’t use guns, so why should the soldiers start attacking them?” asked the imam of the Grand Fallujah Mosque, Jamal Shaqir Mahmood.

He said the Americans should pull out of Fallujah - or at least cut back their forces.

“There is no (Iraqi) military presence here. Why is there an American military presence? We just want a reduction in the numbers,” he said.

Fallujah is site of factories suspected of being linked to banned weapons programs for Saddam Hussein’s regime.

Americans and Iraqis have given sharply differing accounts of Monday night’s shooting. US forces insisted they opened fire only upon armed men - about 25 infiltrators among the protest crowd of 200, according to Col. Arnold Bray, commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, 325 Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division.

Protesters insisted their demonstration was unarmed and peaceful.

Dr Ahmed Ghandim al-Ali, director of Fallujah’s general hospital, said the clash on Monday killed 13 Iraqis - including three young boys - and injured about 75. Some residents put the death toll higher, at 15.

No American was injured.

So now I get it!!! the rocks and shoes are WMD and obviously the brave trigger happy invaders had to defend themselves by opening fire and killing more Iraqis. Very brave act by the Americans indeed. I am a new convert to their theory of liberation. They will soon liberate all the Iraqi souls from their bodies. Carry on the good work. :k:

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yawn :rolleyes:

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Good way of avoiding embarrsement at the over excessive indulgence of your trigger happy invaders.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The soldier, who said he was on the rooftop but not among those who returned fire, said the soldiers "weren't just spraying bullets into the street. We were squeezing single-round, well-placed shots."

[/QUOTE]

Now we have the truth.

The soldiers according to this soldier squeezed "single-round, well-placed shots" into children and innocents. They carefully took aim at the children before pulling the trigger.

Thanks for illuminating us, Ohioguy.

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:hehe: Pwned! Ohioguy care to comment?

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The war is over (except for Iraq)
As Bush prepares to announce an end to hostilities today, more Iraqis are killed by American troops](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=402030)

President George Bush will declare tonight the war in Iraq is all but over. But his speech, far out at sea – aboard the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, which is heading back from the Gulf – will not convince many Iraqis.

For the people of Fallujah – where two men in their twenties, Sa’aleh al-Jumaili, and Ghanam al-Jumaili, were killed yesterday – the war with the American and British occupiers seems to be just beginning. Hatred is taking hold here, and throughout Iraq. It was sown this week by US troops who fired into a demonstration, shooting dead 13 people, and sealed by soldiers who blasted into a crowd again yesterday, killing two more. This on the day that General Tommy Franks declared the main combat phase of the operation was over.

Hatred was present in the taunts of the youths goading the American troops face-to-face, calling them “babies” and waving a banner that said “Sooner or later, US killers, we’ll kick you out”. And it was there in the burning eyes of the man outside Fallujah General Hospital, who began bellowing about the “lies of the Western press” and the wickedness of the American occupation after we arrived to see the bloodied victims of the latest US shooting.

In a country that has lost some 2,500 civilians in the conflict, with at least 10,000 of its soldiers, resentment runs high. Still today, 40,000 of Baghdad’s five million citizens rely on the Red Cross for water.

And as the Americans prepared to move from a war footing to beginning the enormous task of rebuilding and reconstruction, public disillusionment and simmering violence is growing. It threatens to undermine the prospects of a peaceful future and wreak havoc with the plans for a democracy in Iraq.

Donald Rumsfeld, the wisecracking US Defence Secretary, attracted some welcoming waves from Iraqis during his first visit to Baghdad yesterday where he thanked US troops and told Iraqi people the soldiers would stay only as long as it took for Iraqis to make the transition from “tyranny to freedom”.

Travelling unannounced from Kuwait with black-clad soldiers as bodyguards, Mr Rumsfeld held a meeting at Baghdad airport. There he told Iraqis: "Iraq belongs to you. We do not want to run it.

“Our coalition came to Iraq for a purpose – to remove a regime that oppressed your people and threatened ours.”

All this did not reflect the growing popular dissatisfaction on a range of issues including electricity shortages, insecurity, looting, the absence of jobs and of a viable Iraqi government, petrol shortages and the shooting and killing of Iraqi civilians by US troops.

The events of the past 48 hours in Fallujah, 35 miles west of Baghdad, go to the heart of the problems the US forces face on the ground in a country that – although glad to be rid of Saddam Hussein – is ambivalent about living under occupation.

Yesterday morning hundreds of people had taken to the streets of Fallujah, to demand the Americans – the 82nd Airborne Division – get out of town.

For the past day and a half, this Sunni town has been seething over death and injury inflicted by a company of US troops who opened fire on a crowd on Monday night. Those emotions were further stoked by the wildly implausible and inadequate explanations provided by the military.

As US Apache helicopters circled low over their heads, the crowd gathered yesterday outside a Baath party building – the Scientific and Cultural Centre – taken over by the troops.

Several US military trucks drew up. Troops inside the trucks opened fire, killing two men. According to Iraqi officials, 15 others were injured.

The American version of events was delivered by Major Michael Marti, who was to be found standing outside the Fallujah mayor’s office, where US commanders were meeting religious, tribal and city leaders in an effort to calm the tense and volatile climate.

The major said a group of Iraqis had begun hurling stones at an American convoy of several vehicles, and two men armed with Kalashnikovs in the crowd opened fire on them.

The US Central Command (Centcom) said that the army base – a primary and secondary school – was being fired at by 25 armed civilians interspersed among several hundred protesters and also positioned on the neighbouring roof tops.

Across the country, there is no doubt many, many people warmly welcome the removal of Saddam Hussein and his terrible regime. But they are also suspicious of American motives. And, having watched daily TV instalments of the fate of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza at the hands of the Israelis, they recoil with particularly strong distaste at the concept of occupation.

The Americans and British have launched an intense public relations drive to win over Iraqi support. The Fallujah affair has undermined it, although many Iraqis will be unaware of the details because they are still without electricity, and are not watching the TV. The electricity outages, the lack of jobs and the atmosphere of insecurity – looting is still rife – are also undermining the Allies’ efforts to get the country back on its feet. In Baghdad, there is considerable frustration over the chaotic state of public services, the devastation inflicted on the ministries after the Americans arrived and the slow progress of the team led by Jay Garner, the retired general leading the reconstruction and transition.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
...
Have the lives of Iraqi's, especially babies and children become so cheap to you?
[/QUOTE]

Hey come on Malik73 - for the last 12 years of sanctions they have been so. What's new?

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Squeezing off rounds? Yes. As separate from setting the guns on full automatic. Now answer this:

“Lt. Wes Davidson, who was on the second floor, said the soldiers initially threw smoke grenades into the streets to disperse the crowd. When that failed, they launched flares to illuminate the street. He said the soldiers who returned fire had night-vision scopes and aimed at muzzle flashes.”

First, who would protest in the dark? What would that accomplish other than provocation?

Why would you bring your children to this protest?

Why would the crowd not have disbursed after smoke grenades, flares and warning shots?

Do you deny that this town is the home to many of the Former Republican guards?

And here is sort of the summary showing that US troops are being randomly shot at all over the country by elements of Saddams troops.

Saddam loyalists take aim from cover of civilians
By Rowan Scarborough and Guy Taylor
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

 Saddam Hussein's last remaining loyalists are using a trick they employed in the war by mingling with civilian crowds and firing on American forces trying to stabilize Iraq, U.S. military officials say.      Since the fall of Baghdad on April 9, the tactic has been used sporadically, mostly in Sunni Muslim-dominated towns such as Kut, Mosul and Fallujah west of the capital.
 It was in the conservative Islamic town of Fallujah this week that 82nd Airborne Division soldiers ran up against one of the largest collection of armed Saddam loyalists. As townsfolk protested outside U.S. headquarters in an Islamic school, paramilitaries armed with AK-47s fired from within the crowd and from rooftops.
 "We have seen this before where crowds gather," said Air Force Lt. Col. Ed Worley, a spokesman for U.S. Central Command forward headquarters in Doha, Qatar. "You look at the crowd, and all of a sudden they start shooting.
 "These are folks who are loyal to the regime for whatever reason," Col. Worley said. "There are still folks out there. It seems that every time we get involved in one of these firefights like the ones we got involved with in Fallujah, when we get a chance to see them they are dressed like paramilitary folks."
 Other U.S. military officials say the paramilitaries are remnants of several different Saddam groups. They include the dictator's fanatical Saddam Fedayeen death squads, as well as former Republican Guard fighters and special security officers.
 A U.S. intelligence official said yesterday that most of the Fedayeen forces who menaced coalition troops in the war have either been killed or fled the battlefield.
 Of the remaining Saddam loyalists, the official said, "You're not talking about any kind of coherent, organized fighting element. You're basically talking about ragtag elements."
 Col. Worley said 82nd Airborne troops did not capture any of the assailants at Fallujah, so they do not know what type of paramilitaries were involved.
 Central Command has reported at least 11 separate incidents of Iraqis firing on American troops during the past three days. One occurred in the southern Rumeila oil fields. The other 10 broke out further north, in Baghdad, Tikrit — which is Saddam's hometown — Fallujah and Kut.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20030501-75776021.htm

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
...First, who would protest in the dark? What would that accomplish other than provocation?

Why would you bring your children to this protest?

Why would the crowd not have disbursed after smoke grenades, flares and warning shots?
....
[/QUOTE]

A note to Iraqis:
- Whenever you want to protest, check the timetable for "Allowed protests"
- Ask US soldiers and Ohioguy on what group age should be present to protest
- If available, ask what kind of slogans to shout for the protest

Edited:
- Ask on how to behave when US soldiers respond

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U.S. troops kill 15 Iraqi protestors, including children

Lest we forget what the American's did in Fallujah when they first invaded it...and the excuses made by the American's then for the murderous acts of their soldiers.

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Fallujah started out as the hot spot, and continues to be the hot spot.

Evacuate the town and dust off the daisy cutters.....

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Yes evacuate everyone to New York then dust off the DC-10's.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Fallujah started out as the hot spot, and continues to be the hot spot.

Evacuate the town and dust off the daisy cutters.....
[/QUOTE]

Tsk tsk...advocating Vietnam-style tactics against one large civilian town. Didn't you learn your lessons in Vietnam?