mv: terrorist, thugs, jihadis, freedom fighters, insurgents, heroes whatever. You wanna call them pot-aah-tos, while the rest of the world calls them potatos.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
NO. margaret hassan was a much more deplorable murder, not least from my perspective because it was ultimately associated with my religion. i hope the perpetrators are caught and executed.
and you know why there are so many posts here, and not there? because you folks tend to justify your wrongdoings, whereas we tend to accept them and there isnt much debate after that.
[/QUOTE]
That's wonderfully mature. Now, tell me, what is it that you do after you accept "your" wrongdoings? Do you marginalize the wrong doers? Do you collectively protest their actions? Do you help to apprehend them?
I think what you do is "accept" them and then start bitching about U.S. wrongdoings to salve you wounded psyche.
It is interesting too that you use the "we", when I have seen so much resistance to the characterization of an Islamic "monolith". I read many posts that seem to implore us not to judge the "actions of a few" as representing everyone. "We" is good for positive attributes like being "accepting of our faults".
**But many in the Arab world saw its interview with Dr Asma Khamis al-Muhannadi of Fallujah’s general hospital, invaded and “captured” by the marines. She confirmed that “we were tied up and beaten despite being unarmed and having only our medical instruments”; and that the hospital was targeted by bombs and rockets during the initial siege of Fallujah. When the marines came she “was with a woman in labor. The umbilical cord had not yet been cut. At that time, a US soldier shouted at one of the [Iraqi] National Guards to arrest me and tie my hands while I was helping the mother to deliver. I will never forget this incident in my life.” **
**Crucially, Dr al-Muhannadi also confirmed that American snipers killed more than 17 Iraqi doctors who had mobilized to answer an appeal from Fallujah’s doctors broadcast on al-Jazeera: information on the massacre has been circulating in Baghdad for days. Amnesty International, based on the account of a doctor at the scene, says that 20 Fallujah medical staff and dozens of civilians were killed when an American missile destroyed a clinic on November 9. **
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FK18Ak03.html
In the light of Abu Gharib, countless homes and civilians killed, medic teams killed, Iraqi doctors and humanitarians assassinated, use of banned chemical weapons, you are hardly in any position to talk about dignity. The less said the better.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
That's wonderfully mature. Now, tell me, what is it that you do after you accept "your" wrongdoings? Do you marginalize the wrong doers? Do you collectively protest their actions? Do you help to apprehend them?
I think what you do is "accept" them and then start bitching about U.S. wrongdoings to salve you wounded psyche.
It is interesting too that you use the "we", when I have seen so much resistance to the characterization of an Islamic "monolith". I read many posts that seem to implore us not to judge the "actions of a few" as representing everyone. "We" is good for positive attributes like being "accepting of our faults".
[/QUOTE]
interesting observations, and quite valid. i should have qualified my 'we' as the posters that actually engage 'you', the americans on this forum for debates. nobody here justified what happened to margaret hassan, although Im sure there must be a fair many in the 1 billion strong muslim world who do, albeit a very small minority. but you tried to make a point of 'us', pakistanis on this forum, speaking up more on this issue than that, i tried to give a reason for it. no stereotyping intended.
what do we do after we accept our wrongdoings? well atleast within the context of myself, and other 'mod' muslims we carry out the same dialogue within our circle of friends. i've had more than one people alienated from me because of my views against obl and wtc bombings. you folks, american posters on this forum, on the other hand, represent the very thing that is so wrong about the majority of america today. mindful, callous justification of every wrong that you do in the name of WOT. do you marginalise the war mongerers the nutjobs in your country or give them the popular vote?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Do you collectively protest their actions? Do you help to apprehend them?
[/QUOTE]
Anyone who feels the need to apologize for someone else's actions, has serious self-esteem issues. As for helping to apprehend them, that's what your govt is getting paid oh how many billion dollars to do. Not to mention they seem to be relishing every minute of it.
You made your bed, now sleep in it.
It is rather humorous and quite enlightening that there are more protests about what is going on in Fallujhah and more admiration for the insurgents posted by keyboard jihadis on Gupshup than you get in all of Iraq. Inside Iraq, we don't have a general revolt of Shias (or Sunnis for that matter). We don't hear Imams calling for resistance. We don't have Iraqis demonstrating in the streets. Instead, we had 200,000 plus innocent men, women and children dutifully leave Fallujah to allow us to clean out the rodent infestation that they themselves were fearful of doing.
The only ones protesting are the remaining insurgents who courageously fled Fallujah leaving their comrades to die so that they could try to bring their own brand of chaos to other cities. Most of you just don't get it. The vast majority of Iraqis are tired of the vermin infestation and are repulsed by beheadings of innocent aid workers and watching their women and children being dismembered by car bombs. These Iraqis know the nature of the vermin and know what steps are required to destroy them and will welcome whatever steps are taken to get rid of them provided those steps do it quickly and effectively. They are ready for reconstruction. They are ready for establishment of an Iraqi government at the ballot box. And then, they will be ready to see us leave (and we will be more than happy to oblige).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
you folks, american posters on this forum, on the other hand, represent the very thing that is so wrong about the majority of america today. mindful, callous justification of every wrong that you do in the name of WOT. do you marginalise the war mongerers the nutjobs in your country or give them the popular vote?
[/QUOTE]
I think you and I will just have to disagree as to who the warmongers are.
Really?
**In what could cost the new Iraqi government its necessary legitimacy to win the hearts and minds of the people, 47 Sunni, Shiite, Turkoman and Christian bodies have so far declared their boycott for the general election slated for early next year, due to the grisly US attacks in Fallujah. **
Looks like things aren’t going exactly as planned. Just like they didn’t in Afghanistan. Either your troops are enjoying the stay there or they just can’t get the job done.
An outstanding article that gets right to the nub of things in MSNSlate:
On the same day as this story, the tragic news broke that CARE International worker Margaret Hassan had been executed by her captors in Iraq. Already, there have been cries of moral equivalence. One Iraqi told the Los Angeles Times: “It goes to show that [Marines] are not any better than the so-called terrorists.” Al Jazeera fanned these flames of anti-American sentiment by broadcasting the shooting incident in full while censoring Hassan’s execution snuff tape. (U.S. networks refused to air actual footage of both killings.) There is a simplistic appeal to such arguments because both events involve the killing of a human being and, more specifically, the apparent execution of a noncombatant in the context of war.
Yet it is the differences between these two killings that reveal the most important truths about the Marine shooting in Fallujah. Hassan was, in every sense of the word, a noncombatant. She worked for more than 20 years to help Iraqis obtain basic necessities: food, running water, medical care, electricity, and education. The Iraqi insurgents kidnapped her and murdered her in order to terrorize the Iraqi population and the aid workers trying to help them.
By contrast, the Marines entered a building in Fallujah and found several men who, until moments before, had been enemy insurgents engaged in mortal combat. A hidden grenade would have changed everything, and the Marine would have been lauded. As it turned out, the Iraqi was entitled to mercy, but Hassan was truly innocent. There is no legitimate moral equivalence between a soldier asking for quarter and a noncombatant like Hassan.
There is another key difference that reveals a great moral divide between the Marines and insurgents they fought this week in Fallujah. The insurgents choose the killing of innocents as their modus operandi and glorify these killings with videos distributed via the Internet and Al Jazeera. They recognize no civilized norms of conduct, let alone the rules of warfare. The Marines, on the other hand, distinguish themselves by killing innocents so rarely and only by exception or mistake. Collateral damage is part of warfare, and civilians will die no matter how many control measures are in place. Yet the U.S. military devotes a staggering amount of resources to ensuring that civilian deaths do not happen, from sophisticated command systems to control precision bombs to staffs of lawyers at every level of command to vet targeting decisions. And when such breaches do occur, as they apparently did on Saturday, U.S. military commanders act swiftly to punish the offender, lest one incident of indiscipline blossom into many. (Indeed, one Army captain currently faces charges for killing a wounded Iraqi after a firefight and pursuit through the streets of Baghdad.)
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109904/#ContinueArticle
Maybe these so called morally superior marines think that a red cross indicates a bullseye. What’s the minimum education requirement for a marine again?
**At least 800 civilians have been killed during the U.S. military siege of Fallujah, a Red Cross official estimates. **
Wow alot of accidents or exceptions huh?
**The official said that both Red Cross and Iraqi Red Crescent relief teams had asked the U.S. military in Fallujah to take in medical supplies to people trapped in the city, but their repeated requests had been turned down. ”The Americans close their ears, and that is it,” the Red Cross official said. ”They won’t even let us take supplies into Fallujah General Hospital.” **
**”I don’t know why the American leaders did not approach the Red Cross and ask us to deal with the families properly before the attacking began,” said a Red Cross aid worker, who also spoke on condition of anonymity. ”Suddenly they attacked and people were stuck with no help, no medicine, no food, no supplies,” he said. ”So those who could, ran for the desert while the rest were trapped in the city.” **
Looks like your American Heroes :rolleyes: are busy preventing aid delivery to civilians, all the while blowing up their houses.
^^ There is some excellent journalism, a Red Cross/ Crescent official who would not give their name for quotation. Now how could they possibly know what the "civilian" casualty count was? Get me a list, and include as a separate column men of militray age, then we will see how many "civilians" were killed.
why wont they let aid into fallujah? Scared of what they might find?
** At least 800 civilians have been killed during the U.S. military siege of Fallujah, a Red Cross official estimates. **
Perhaps the 800 are the dead human shields executed by the insurgents. Since the insurgents don't wear military uniforms, I wonder how the Red Cross guy differentiates between dead insurgents and dead civilians. Probably, he/she doesn't.
skhan: There is one guy in Iraq who we know could probably have stopped the Fallujah campaign before it even started: i.e. Sistani. Seems like he and most Iraqis don't glorify vermin like you do. By the way, did you hear how good things are going with the reconstruction of Najaf? Progress is happening all over Iraq. :) Pretty soon, even the Sunnis will want to participate in the progress enough to reject and stand up to the insurgent thugs who are bringing them such pain and misery.
how exactly do humans become shields, when its bombs that are being used mostly and when they know the marines could careless if civilians are amongst insurgents?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by myvoice: *
Seems like he and most Iraqis don't glorify vermin like you do.
[/QUOTE]
No one is glorifying the marines here except yourselves.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *
how exactly do humans become shields, when its bombs that are being used mostly and when they know the marines could careless if civilians are amongst insurgents?
[/QUOTE]
Good question. Why don't you ask the Iraqi civilians who were used as shields. Oh...that's right. The vermin insurgents executed them and they're dead. I guess you're one of those people who think an enemy that surrounds themselves with human shields should be immune from attack. Whatever you do, don't put the blame for the death of the human shields on those who used them. Perhaps you could point out which provision of the Geneva Convention or other international law permits thugs to use human shields. Maybe we ought to just give in to the whim of every lunatic animal that tries to protect himself by surrounding himself with women and children.
shakes head All i can say is you've got a very good imagination. Youve got it all prepared and sorted in your head havent you?
anyways my question wasn't quite answered, what is the point of taking civilians in with you considering the bombs dont distinguish between a civilian or an insurgent? The insurgent know this, so does everyone else. So why would they take them in?
unless of course, 'human shield' is just another justification for killing innocent civilians as it'll get them off the hook easily, you know if the dead is not an insurgent, he was a human shield. it cant be helped either way.
Yes. Thankfully, I’m not as confused as you on black and white issues. I don’t try to change their color to grey merely to absolve evil people of their sins because they might share membership in some affinity group with me.
** anyways my question wasn’t quite answered, what is the point of taking civilians in with you considering the bombs dont distinguish between a civilian or an insurgent? The insurgent know this, so does everyone else. So why would they take them in? **
They take them in so they will die. If they don’t die by an American bullet or bomb, then the vermin kill them themselves.
Then, they will use their deaths to try to win a victory in propoganda that they cannot achieve on the battlefield.
oh - my - god.
woah!!! quick look behind you!!! whats that? the phantom insurgent. Boo!!!
do you sleep like ok at night. you dont get nightmares about these phantom insurgents do you?
ps- i'm sorry but are you trying to brain wash me?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ma Mooli: *
oh - my - god.
woah!!! quick look behind you!!! whats that? the phantom insurgent. Boo!!!
do you sleep like ok at night. you dont get nightmares about these phantom insurgents do you?
ps- i'm sorry but are you trying to brain wash me?
[/QUOTE]
Hey Ma. It's really quite simple and it's hard for me to believe that some people still don't get it.
** If not one single more Iraqi is killed, we win!!! (Coincidentally, so do the Iraqi people). **
Death, destruction and despair is viewed by these a-holes as a defeat of the US and therefore a victory for them. Dead Iraqis is their agenda, not ours.