http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-11-2004_pg7_57
I see, if your stooges plan to stay this long, then I think most of your soldiers have probably taken out mortgages there.
the law concerns itself with the person in question, and not what other insurgents have been doing. given that he did not perform a hostile act, bringing in the rest of the group is irrelevant to the geneva laws.
but what does it matter? werent the conventions rendered quaint according to your attorney general?
[QUOTE]
Since the unit that this soldier was in had a marine KILLED the previous day by a booby trapped body, this marine would have good reason to question movement, as even the simple act of rolling over can remove enough wieght from a grenade to cause it to go off.
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As far the video is concerned, the only movement the man made was when he was hit by bullets, his body jumped, and his blood splattered around. Does that count as dangerous movement?
what about breathing? can that make a grenade explode? and if indeed he was scared of the grenade exploding, why in God's name did he go and stand over the man. To get a better look perhaps?
please enlighten us.
It doesn't take much movement to pull a pin.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
It doesn't take much movement to pull a pin.
[/QUOTE]
All the more reason to get closer, right?
movement is one thing he didnt do. he was sprawled on his back.
^^ Watching a video from the safety of your home is a bit different than being there. They have no instant replay in War. Here is the transcript before the shooting. It is obvious the marine though this was a trap:
“He’s (expletive) faking he’s dead!”
“Yeah, he’s breathing,” another Marine is heard saying.
“He’s faking he’s (expletive) dead!” the first Marine says
Given that they had a fellow Marine killed the day before by a booby trapped body, his concern is probably very real. He may have done the wrong thing, but the more I go over this, the more I am convinced this is not a black and white situation.
He was so concerned he went over to check if he was booby-trapped?
The more i read your reasoning, the more i feel convinced your clutching at thin straws.
pray tell, how do you fake that your dead? By being injured?
You know, if you repeat something so many times, you begin to believe in it. Especially if you can't conceive otherwise.
give it up ma mooli. these nutjobs will stop at nothing to keep defending this exceptional exhibition of professionalism from the marine.
and the 'outrage', the black and whitedness isnt even skin deep. they've exonerated the guy from the outset in their minds, and all this talk right now is more of a lawyer's defence than anything else. and even there they dont have a leg to stand on so they make up their own rules 'he probably had a booby trap go up in his face so its okay'. what can we make out from a video anyway.. maybe he had indigestion? acid reflux?
as i said somewhere else, these are the same people who thought it was okay to bomb the crap out of the city because they're all (probably) bad people anyway, how genuine can this talk be? just let it be.
Believe it or not this is a common occurance in war:
"Broward, the 71-year-old Korean War veteran and owner of the Davis brew pub Sudwerk, recounted an incident from 1951 when he was on patrol after his unit had taken a hill controlled by North Koreans.
“There were a lot of enemy dead around there, North Koreans,” Broward said. "It was actually pretty quiet and we just passed up most of them when we heard a couple of shots.
“One of the fellows we had passed up (as dead) had shot one of the squad leaders in the back - his name was Sergeant Riley - and killed him instantly. And it was from a guy we had passed up.”
Chong, 59, who spent two years in the Marines during the Vietnam War, said he recalls instances of enemy soldiers pretending to be dead in order to ambush Americans."
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/special_reports/iraq/bee/story/11459712p-12373764c.html
Frankly, given how many marines had been killed by booby traps and explosives, I would be pretty twitchy myself. I see that you have formed judgement on the basis of a tape, I have not. You must have remarkable powers to instantly know and understand the circumstances. I have damn little sympathy for the insurgents. If the kid erred on the side of staying alive, I can’t say I blame him. Let the investigation procede…
if you want to see what their position on this actually is, see how many times they've changed their stance and line of argument. fairly obvious that the only thing consistent is the desire to just deflect this bit of censure off.
I gave up long ago ravage. Its not even serious anymore, its one big pathetic joke.
my oneliners are never serious, plus i have free time to flood and cafe is too foreign.
imma gonna give my opinions where it counts, just like mr. Fisk. Watch out for articles from Ma Mooli in the future.
^ ditto.
Just showcases how gullible some of these "nutjobs" can be. Talk about being in denial!
On a broader scale, this is exactly why the Bush Admin and the US Army can get away with such antics all the while incurring nearly 8 trillion dollars of debt. Anyone who has a different point of view is immediately labeled as unpatriotic.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
^ ditto.
Just showcases how gullible some of these "nutjobs" can be. Talk about being in denial!
On a broader scale, this is exactly why the Bush Admin and the US Army can get away with such antics all the while incurring nearly 8 trillion dollars of debt. Anyone who has a different point of view is immediately labeled as unpatriotic.
[/QUOTE]
i'd actually be happier if they were in denial as you say. atleast it would be sincere then. they're not. the dishonest sophistry is very, very deliberate, motivated by ends justifying the means.
anyhow.. apologies for derailing this convo. please continue about how the geneva conventions werent violated/necessary/applicable. while you're at it, a word about acid reflux and the impact of that on tendency in people to sodomise prisoners with tubelights would be in order.
ah yes we were dicussing how the guy went over to have a close look at the grenade, before you interrupted...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
i'd actually be happier if they were in denial as you say. atleast it would be sincere then. they're not. the dishonest sophistry is very, very deliberate, motivated by ends justifying the means.
[/QUOTE]
I think the issue is the context of this soldier's action.
Two men both (willingly) fighting in a nasty battle. One dies with a single, perhaps criminally shot bullet. 114 posts to put loudly protest the death of the insurgent fighter.
Mararet Hassan. Not a fighter, but a humanitarian. No threat to her captors. No gray area in their decsion to murder her. 39 posts.
Insurgents who have killed scores of innocent Iraqi civilians, policemen, and on and on, have not been the recipient of the such scorn.
Question:
Is the shooting of the insurgent more contemptable than the execution of Hassan?
delete
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
I think the issue is the context of this soldier's action.
Two men both (willingly) fighting in a nasty battle. One dies with a single, perhaps criminally shot bullet. 14O posts to put loudly protest the death of the insurgent fighter.
Mararet Hassan. Not a fighter, but a humanitarian. No threat to her captors. No gray area in their decsion to murder her. 39 posts.
Insurgents who have killed scores of innocent Iraqi civilians, policemen, and on and on, have not been the recipient of the such scorn.
Question:
Is the shooting of the insurgent more contemptable than the execution of Hassan?
[/QUOTE]
NO. margaret hassan was a much more deplorable murder, not least from my perspective because it was ultimately associated with my religion. i hope the perpetrators are caught and executed.
and you know why there are so many posts here, and not there? because you folks tend to justify your wrongdoings, whereas we tend to accept them and there isnt much debate after that.
even now, the conversation is somehow about robert fisk..
I thought we were talking about how the dead guy was a terrorist thug piece of cr*p. If our soldiers were on the same lower rung of animal existence as the dead guy and his dead buddies, those 1,600 former terrorists would have their heads chopped off their cold dead bodies and their torsos would be hung from overpasses and lampposts all over Fallujah. Instead, they are allowing the dead to be recovered and buried with much more dignity and respect than any of them deserve.
As I said before, save your tears for the innocent Iraqis these terrorists executed and have dismembered with car bombs in the streets.
im guess ‘we’ doesnt include you, because the rest seem intent on bringing up geneva laws. you can rest assured though that your men are no worse than the ‘terrorist thugs’. they violate geneva laws and basic human decency norms, and you do too. the only question is, who is worse.
and about THAT question, i dont really give a crap. you might, and you can go ahead an indulge yourself in subjective evaluations of who is worse for all your worth.
btw.. just to see where you stand. the strung up american security firm people were meted out the treatment by a mob of ordinary city dwelling people. i understand then that you think it would be okay to summarily execute the whole bunch of fallujans you have in refugee camps? :k:
no wait.. that might be a public relations nightmare…