Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered

Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered

GEO Pakistan** PML-N urges Altaf to face cases in Pakistan** Updated at: 1643 PST, Tuesday, August 25, 2009

LAHORE: Pakistan Muslim League (PML-N) spokesman Siddiqul Farooq asked Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain to return to Pakistan to face cases, so that he could prove his weight.

Farooq urged Altaf Hussain to come to Punjab, saying, ‘We will provide him the bullet-proof vehicles and receive him in Lahore.’

PML-N mouthpiece said his party acknowledges the MQM and its mandate; but, we do not accede to the politics of ethnicity and bias.

‘We respect the immigrants and their offspring; but, we do not accept the All Pakistan Mohajir Qaumi Movement, which was based on the very ethnicity,’ he reiterated.

N$ is not worried about courts because he has arranged…

Your fundamental position is absolutely wrong, no political party is as bad as MQM. Other political parties are corrupt, MQM in addition to corruption has things that makes it apart
- PPP, PML do not run a systematic terror capaign in their areas.
- no political party has organized systemic murdering of other ethnicities
- PPP/PML have not been involved in "Boribund" dead bodies
- PPP/PML have not had their terrorrists trained and hiding in India
- PPP/PML have not burned Pakistani flags

As to why people still vote for them, it could be because

  • they are coerced
  • they are racist and are happy with terror compaigns of MQM against other ethnicities.

Take your pick

I couldn't have said better.

Or by the combination of the two fascisms.
"Jaag Punjabi Jaag, Teri pug noon lag gaya daagh" has been the slogan of the leader of Islami Jamhuri Ittehad.

Burqa's argument is similar to argument used by Congress about their so-called "sectarian" politics of Muslim League, which resulted in overwhelming support of Muslims, and ended up with creation of Pakistan.

So Burqa and Congress have few things in common. ;)

Two comments on this.

  1. What is the quotation source / who said it for IJI?

But more importantly,

  1. how many seats IJI has won based on this "quoted ethnic slogan"? (Does IJI command majority of seats in Punjab? or what they say that part is just another lota group)

If the standard is that any political party that has ever used violence for political objectives or that has acted as an instrument & political allies for military dictators that have directly violated Article 6 of the constitution should not be considered 'political' as their actions are fundamentally inconsistent with spirit of public representation... then all mainstream political forces in Pakistan would fail to pass this standard....., would that be a practical scenario I dont know, but unless a standard is applied uniformly..., its selective application would be considered subjective & biased

A federation cannot survive when the constituents of the federation have this level of arrogance & disrespect for other members..., this in & of itself fully justifies their choice of separation & unless all constituents of the federation are treated with equal respect the unfortunate process of division will continue.

I am not arguing whether the perception is right or wrong..., my argument is that the lesson we should learn from history is that the way we chose to deal with peoples perception is what led to what followed

You have made a judgment & now only looking & conjuring things that satisfy what you have already decided rather then the other way around.

Status of some of these arguments can only considered your own subjective assessment
Its like saying that xyz person's father is not his father but his neighbour is his father as he resembles his neighbour more then the person that is supposed to be his father....,I am not arguing on the specifics of your allegation but only saying that its basis is your own asseesment which may be absolutely right but this holds no authority over those that do no chose to believe in what you are saying....

secondly, there are many other factors that you have chosen to ignore
- Making political leadership a heredity family affair
- Collaborating with the military in a military coup
- When occupying some position of power; following policies that have resulted in the weakening of the federation or its breakup...

the question is what is the 'Gold-Standard' on the basis of which one can quantify which is better or which is worse.

Firstly its not for me to pick but for you to understand...
Secondly, you have chosen to close your mind of possibilities...
you are either willing to presume (what you had call an ethnicity is not a single ethnic/cultural/linguistic block) a voting block is either acting as racist as the jews or acting as passive as North Koreans.., you are not willing to consider the possibility that their decision making process may be as complex & sane as yours & therefore there might be other explanations for their choice.

I know of Hamid Gul saying it.
IJI made Nawaz a leader, because Nawaz used both ethnic/religious slogans in Punjab and religious slogans elsewhere in country.

Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered

Didnt MQM ally with IJI?

Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered

Once a terrorist organization; always a terrorist organization.

When will Altaf Hussain return to Pakistan to face charges since the truth has finally being "unveiled"? :)

This arrogance and disrespect is very evident in MQM, they look down upon other people of Pakistan is illiterate, stupid and what not. So don't blab about respect.

[QUOTE]

If the standard is that any political party that has ever used violence for political objectives or that has acted as an instrument & political allies for military dictators that have directly violated Article 6 of the constitution should not be considered 'political' as their actions are fundamentally inconsistent with spirit of public representation... then all mainstream political forces in Pakistan would fail to pass this standard....., would that be a practical scenario I dont know, but unless a standard is applied uniformly..., its selective application would be considered subjective & biased

[/QUOTE]

There is hell of a difference between skirmishes between political groups that occur inadvertantly in rallies of voting vs a party having a network of terrorism. The only parties that qualify to the later are MQM.

[QUOTE]

Status of some of these arguments can only considered your own subjective assessment
Its like saying that xyz person's father is not his father but his neighbour is his father as he resembles his neighbour more then the person that is supposed to be his father....,I am not arguing on the specifics of your allegation but only saying that its basis is your own asseesment which may be absolutely right but this holds no authority over those that do no chose to believe in what you are saying....

secondly, there are many other factors that you have chosen to ignore
- Making political leadership a heredity family affair
- Collaborating with the military in a military coup
- When occupying some position of power; following policies that have resulted in the weakening of the federation or its breakup...

the question is what is the 'Gold-Standard' on the basis of which one can quantify which is better or which is worse.

[/QUOTE]

Some people will not beleive that Taliban are fighting against PAkistan, they will rather beleive in jewish conspiracy theories. If ethnicitiy has blinded you to the point taht you do not see the terrorism of MQM then ots your choice. As for objectivity, MQM has been declared as terrorist organization in Canadian court, thousands of cases are registered against MQM in anti-terror courts, there exists evidence of training in India, the terror cells were uncovered and showed live on national tv during 92 operation, and the most recently live coverage of its killing of 40+ people in karachi, if all that is not enough, then i guess nothing will be objective to you.

As for the thing staht you have listed, i have no love for any political parties, they will do anything to get tehir hands at the money, even if it involves collaborating with military coups, but, they do not perpetrate killings.

[QUOTE]

Firstly its not for me to pick but for you to understand...
Secondly, you have chosen to close your mind of possibilities...
you are either willing to presume (what you had call an ethnicity is not a single ethnic/cultural/linguistic block) a voting block is either acting as racist as the jews or acting as passive as North Koreans.., you are not willing to consider the possibility that their decision making process may be as complex & sane as yours & therefore there might be other explanations for their choice.

[/QUOTE]

I have spoken to many people who have voted for MQM and come across two responses. They will either tell you that, every thing against MQM is a lie, ALtaf Bhai is farishta, he is the best thing that happened to karachi, OR, there are others who acknowledge criminal or mafia nature of MQM but say, "bund muthi meiN ziyada taqat hoti hai, is liye hum muhajir ko vote deiN gey"

hmmm interesting.. I just saw their canadian website… apparently it seems that Canadian court can declare an organization as terrorist & then allow them to operate, induct members , place no restrictions on their activities even allow them to hold Annual Conventions the most recent of which just ended on 2nd Aug 2009..,

Lets be honest the verdict you are referring to was a verdict on the immigration appeal of someone associated with MQM in Federal immigration appeals board- the same premise led hundreds of their activist to get asylum in Canada based on their association with MQM & for some it was turned down but the canadian penal court has no jurisdiction nor any business with MQM & therefore has never passed any verdict.

Now, I am actually not an MQM supporter.., infact some people may find this hilarious but if Imran Khan stood for election from my constituency I would probably vote for him- I think he is a decent guy but unfortunately there is no room for decent guys in our politics.

The point that I am constantly (& perhaps not doing it right it seems) trying to cross is that millions of people vote for MQM.., some may vote for them because of coercion some because of ethinic homogenity(just like the bradari vote) but the vast majority votes for other reasons some because they believe MQM has delivered positively towards development in their constituency( you may find it very hard to believe but a lot of people in Karachi have been impressed by the likes of Mustafa Kamal), some because of their secular agenda & some because they are attracted to the fact that even though they have a militant element to which we in Karachi have now become accustomed to , as it is an attribute of all parties here- but they give their party ticket to middle class, young , educated political activists…,
I see no difference b/w these & the reasons for voting a particular party in rest of Pakistan

Add to this that a large section of their political base primarily believe in the point that I have been constantly re-iterating(they are no worse then the rest of the parties),
-You talk about cases - The sharif brothers have been convicted , to which they even did not file an appeal they just got away with a presidential pardon
Probably a single person with largest set of cases against him including murder & all kind of massive financial fraud is our sitting president & there are many many such cases against politicians from all parties ; you talk about perpetrating killings…, why must then the be a differentiation b/w responsibles of Pakka Qila , the military operation of the 90’s & MQM , while you would not endorse them neither do I endorse the militant aspect of MQM the fundamental point of difference b/w us is that you are willing to differentiate b/w politicians & their political institution (although in most of these cases there is no political institution just a club of influential & powerful individuals..), you are willing to let them do their politics & take-on responsibilities of public representation as long as the public is willing to trust them; for all parties except MQM, while my argument is on all dimensions the premise on the basis of which you want a distinct national response towards MQM is not just uniquely applicable to them, for that you consider me blinded by ethnicity :cool:

Yes we remember
Killing of the only gentleman of MQM
Its chairman Azim Ahmed Tariq
Hakim Saeed
Senator Mohsan Siddiqui
Salah ud din (Takbeer)
and thousands other innocent urdu speaking people
All killed by this hejra (another ha..mi son of Zia)

Another propaganda like Jinnahpur was to attribute killings of important people by agencies and their allies to MQM. Edhi was also supposed to be offed with this method but thankfully he escaped in time and had to live in exile for some time. He has already spoken out against those who were threatening him and it wasn't the MQM.

In few years this will also be exposed for the lie it is by the hidden brigadiers and majors. Even SHC had to acquit the falsely accused MQM workers who had no reason to kill Hakeem Saeed

If you are not a paid worker I ask you only one thing
Kuchh Khauf e Khuda bhi hona chahiay ham logon main
I always support PPP but can not support any corruption by some of them.
If you dont know them try to find the truth.

Factually speaking:

No Jinnahpur map was found based on which the operation was started

MQM is not declared a terrorist party by any country including Pakistan.

Nawaz Sharif has not come out to deny the 15,000 deaths he caused.

Chief Justice of Pakistan has been asked to order an inquiry but to date no action has been taken by him for unknown reasons.

MQM is in the government and voted in by the " people of Pakistan. "

It is not banned in Pakistan.

Its leader Altaf Hussein is not convicted.

There are no proves. Just one accusation built up over another.

MQM also won seats from Azad Kashmir so it is not a city party.

MQM is the third largest political party of Pakistan.

Please respect the democratic choice of the people of Pakistan.

One day successors of Taliban would be crying like this .... for death of their 'innocent supporters' through military operation started on basis of false accusations.

When these same very officials label a certain group no worse then the rest as 'Indian Agents' & as traitors , when these same very officials use military operation & state machinery against entities that they seem to have lost control of under the false pretext of terrorism , action against criminals , jinnahpur etc , you glorify them & do not tend question their motives, Here by false pretext I do not intend to imply MQM does not have any militant elements by that I mean the motivations of the action was not driven because of militancy for if it would have.., it would not have involved the creation of an even more dangerous group of gangsta (Haqiqi) for the attainment of their objectives ,

So you see we all are equally vulnerable to perceptual biases of expectancy & causality

I consider you blinded by you rethnicity because you have throughout tried every tricky word to downplay the ethnically motivated terrorism of MQM which no other mainstream political party does. Within 2 years of its inception it managed it turn Karachi into a bloodbath. You have conviniently ignored countless racially motivated murders, torture cells, extortion, bhatta collection, attacks and murder of policemen, training for terrorism in India, into merely a militant side of MQM.

May i remind you that Mustafa Kamal has arrived on the scene only 2-3 years ago, MQM’s victory in elections precedes much longer. SO its not him that gets votes for MQM but other factors. WHich are co-ercion and racism.

Okay lets talk about the cases, yes Zardari has cases agianst him, for which he should never have been pardoned. However, Zaradri might have murdered for his personal gains, in his personal capacity for which he shud be tried, but, what he has NOT done is to raise an urban militia to rampage the whole city. Zardari has not shot down tens of opposition demonstrators in cold blood. His party has not been firing rocket launchers at police and army.

Sharifs might be corrupt, but, cases against them were politically motivated, they too have not comitted any acts of terorism or racial killings.

Miltary operation against MQM was the right thing to do. You may be happy with torture cells, barricades and killings of punjabis and hazaris, but, it only ended because of military operation. I am not much aware about pakka qila, but, i will look into its details. Perhaps you can tell me who was behind it.

The difference between other parties and MQM is teh same as teh difference between Qazi Hussain and Baitullah Mahsood. The former shud always be kept under watch and investigated, the later a terrorist that needs taken care of.

Intelligence is an essential input to understand the underlying subtle interferences that prevades a comment.

I am afraid that you just lost your credibility by posting your opinions over the facts I provided in post number 60.

:)

Don't forget. MQM play was also a game of the gang of same criminals. and my question to you is still unreplied.
please tell me who killed police officer *Bahadur Ali *(Syed Bahadur Ali Shah)