how many of you lived through the 90s in Karachi ..., & staying in-different to MQM how many of you heard the term 'JinnahPur' at that time ?
...... You can not win your argument about mqm here. All mqm threads had a good lashing from majority in this forum. Why? ......
This is also kind of scary... most certainly MQM is the most hated party & AH is the most hated politician in Pakistan... but wait this party has been winning unprecedented support from Urban sindh for the past 25 years..., if I am not mistaken they have 19 out of 21 seats of NA seats from Karachi..., it is probable there was rigging & also the JI the second strongest political party in KHI bycotted the election... but all other factors kept aside this reality has to be admitted that they have a very strong political base in urban sindh that has remained intact across military operations; if measured based on electoral representation. if MQM is not a genuine political reality of Karachi then i would suggest we should abandon 'democracy' because if it cant work in the largest metropolis of the country for 25 years then lets get away with it may be military dictators or Talibans would be better but if they are a genuine political reality of Karachi which i very strongly believe..., then their non-acceptability across the mainstream of Pakistan is not a very good sign.., After all Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman also had unprecedented support in East Pakistan & he was not acceptable in the rest of the country .... look at what this non-acceptance of ground realities led us to.....
This is also kind of scary... most certainly MQM is the most hated party & AH is the most hated politician in Pakistan... but wait this party has been winning unprecedented support from Urban sindh for the past 25 years..., if I am not mistaken they have 19 out of 21 seats of NA seats from Karachi..., it is probable there was rigging & also the JI the second strongest political party in KHI bycotted the election... but all other factors kept aside this reality has to be admitted that they have a very strong political base in urban sindh that has remained intact across military operations; if measured based on electoral representation. if MQM is not a genuine political reality of Karachi then i would suggest we should abandon 'democracy' because if it cant work in the largest metropolis of the country for 25 years then lets get away with it may be military dictators or Talibans would be better but if they are a genuine political reality of Karachi which i very strongly believe..., then their non-acceptability across the mainstream of Pakistan is not a very good sign.., After all Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman also had unprecedented support in East Pakistan & he was not acceptable in the rest of the country .... look at what this non-acceptance of ground realities led us to.....
What else do you expect when their lies have been exposed? They will find new ways to show their "manhood".
..
..... but wait this party has been winning unprecedented support from Urban sindh for the past 25 years..., if I am not mistaken they have 19 out of 21 seats of NA seats from Karachi...,.....
Lallu Parsad Yadav too has been winning for decades of decades from Bihar, while his state has been the poorest of the poor. Not only the Lallu, his istri Rabri devi plays musical chairs too.
FYI.
When we use ethnic or religious fascism to the willing vote base, the result is always a win.
**
Do you even know who use to win ALL The SEATS in urban Sindh before MQM?
A religious fascist party called JI.
**
However my fellow voters have proven over and over again, that religious fascism can only be beat by even the more terrible beast! Ethnic fascism.
So please do not give us the cr@p of winning votes.
Thank you.
Lallu Parsad Yadav too has been winning for decades of decades from Bihar, while his state has been the poorest of the poor. Not only the Lallu, his istri Rabri devi plays musical chairs too.
FYI.
When we use ethnic or religious fascism to the willing vote base, the result is always a win. ** Do you even know who use to win ALL The SEATS in urban Sindh before MQM?
A religious fascist party called JI. ** However my fellow voters have proven over and over again, that religious fascism can only be beat by even the more terrible beast! Ethnic fascism.
So please do not give us the cr@p of winning votes.
Thank you.
So you believe democracy is crap then what should it be replaced with; Military dictatorship or taliban ...,
either scrap the system or accept the result...,
either accept the judgment of people & introspect or take away this right......
But whatever you do staying in a denial mode consistenly only creates bigger grieviences ... what do u think the two generations before us used to thin Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman & the choice excersized by the people of Bengal ?
BTW: May be u already know 'Mohajir' is not an ethnicity... it contains people from many parts of India that migrated to Pakistan after independence not all of them speak urdu... in India some of these ethnic groups that are categorized as Mohajirs or more recently as Urdu speaking are staunchest political opponents of each other.... , in Pakistan they are homogenious political/voting block not because of shared ethnicity , culture or even language but because of a shared (perceived or real is debatable) sense of deprivation..,
Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered
[note] Thread reopened. [/note]
Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered
MQM was never a threat for the security of Pakistan (and will never be so) unless it joins hands with Sindh Nationalists/Separatists in true sense.
This is also kind of scary... most certainly MQM is the most hated party & AH is the most hated politician in Pakistan... but wait this party has been winning unprecedented support from Urban sindh for the past 25 years..., if I am not mistaken they have 19 out of 21 seats of NA seats from Karachi..., it is probable there was rigging & also the JI the second strongest political party in KHI bycotted the election... but all other factors kept aside this reality has to be admitted that they have a very strong political base in urban sindh that has remained intact across military operations; if measured based on electoral representation. if MQM is not a genuine political reality of Karachi then i would suggest we should abandon 'democracy' because if it cant work in the largest metropolis of the country for 25 years then lets get away with it may be military dictators or Talibans would be better but if they are a genuine political reality of Karachi which i very strongly believe..., then their non-acceptability across the mainstream of Pakistan is not a very good sign.., After all Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman also had unprecedented support in East Pakistan & he was not acceptable in the rest of the country .... look at what this non-acceptance of ground realities led us to.....
Have elections in tribal areas leaving the TAliban unchecked and Hakeemullah Mahsood will win. As long as teh fascist netweork of MQM is in place they will always win elections. And rigging is not just by voting but also by intimidation, false propaganda.
Then again, no where in teh world a criminal and terrorist is left alone because he can win votes, thats not how the fricking democarcy works nor thats what democracy means.
There is not doubt that MQM is a fascist party, who has killed Pakistani people of all ethnicities, be it Punjabi, Pakhtoon, Sindhi and Baluchi. Its terrorists were trained in India like Javed Langra who is still hiding there. It has killed prominent Pakistanis as Hakim Saeed.
Its far more scary that you want us to beleive that people of karachi love thsi party despite all these atrocities.
The problem with your argument is that it is built on preconceived notions & self fulfilling prophecies
There is not doubt that MQM is a fascist party
Now I am not saying that you are absolutely right or absolutely wrong... all I am saying is that the very allegation is subjective which cannot be objectively quantified...
How can you talk about any principle when the basis of its application is not driven objectively ? The argument is structurally equivalent to the argument used by Israel against Hizbullah or Hamas....
.... As long as teh fascist netweork of MQM is in place they will always win elections. And rigging is not just by voting but also by intimidation, false propaganda.
This again is something that can not be characterized objectively & is not limited in its applicability to MQM..., All allegations that are applied to them can be equally applied to all political forces in Pakistan(allegations of fascism , criminal association ..., etc. etc.) from their opponents ... , so who decides which allegation are authentic & which are not ?
& why must there be a separate standard for them & the rest of us
Its far more scary that you want us to beleive that people of karachi love thsi party despite all these atrocities.
Here again ... , the correct response should not be an assumption that just because we believe they commit atrocities therefore they cant have any support ... the correct response should be how do we ascertain where do people stand on them & then introspect & analyze if indeed people chose them why did they chose a seemingly atrocious group.
My fundamental position is that they are no better & no worse then all other political forces that exists in Pakistan.,, When we make them the most hated political party in the country & when we choose not to accept the electoral choice of one part of the country with the same sanctity as other we should be very skeptical of what we are basing this on & at the same time give adequate mindshare to the lessons of history
So you believe democracy is crap then what should it be replaced with; Military dictatorship or taliban ..., either scrap the system or accept the result..., ...,
I think you are going to the other extreme. Voting/election is just the first step of democratic process. But after voting/elections, if a party turns out to be fascistic/ethnicist, it should be rejected in the next poll.
That means the responsibility is on "we the people" to weed out the parties who are narrow-minded chauvinists.
Do you know that Germans "elected" a monster named Hitler, who ended up leading the whole Germany into the abyss of death and destruction. Fascists Nazis turned a prosperous country into a heap of burned out metal and bricks. Millions of Germans perished, and got enslaved by the super-powers of the day.
The same thing is true for MQM or its predecessor JI for Karachi and Pakistan.
......... what do u think the two generations before us used to thin Shaikh Mujeeb-ur-Rehman & the choice excersized by the people of Bengal ?..,
Good point.
Do you know what choice Bengalis exercised immediately after "so-called independence"?
They butchered Mujib, and f'd every member of his family. Only one daughter survived just because she was OUT of the sonar bangla.
Bengalis by their very actions proved that they hated the guts of Mujib.
Even after 40+ years of so-called independence they are poorer and hungrier than they used to before 1971.
Have you ever heard of the months of "monga"? the hunger months?
It is easy for all of us in Karachi to have fat bellies and still talk about "perceived" deprivation.
And if some sane person challenges these lies aka perceptions, the cries of Bangladesh are thrown around willy nilly.
Even after 40+ years of so-called independence** they are poorer and hungrier than they used to before 1971**.
It may be a side-question, but what is your source of information on this?
Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered
A party ceases to be 'political' as soon as it starts using violence to achieve its objectives. That's the objective measurement you people are seeking.
Can a 'political' party threaten a Pakistani person not to enter a particular Pakistani city?
I think you are going to the other extreme. Voting/election is just the first step of democratic process. But after voting/elections, if a party turns out to be fascistic/ethnicist, it should be rejected in the next poll.
That means the responsibility is on "we the people" to weed out the parties who are narrow-minded chauvinists.
Do you know that Germans "elected" a monster named Hitler, who ended up leading the whole Germany into the abyss of death and destruction. Fascists Nazis turned a prosperous country into a heap of burned out metal and bricks. Millions of Germans perished, and got enslaved by the super-powers of the day.
The same thing is true for MQM or its predecessor JI for Karachi and Pakistan.
Good point.
Do you know what choice Bengalis exercised immediately after "so-called independence"?
They butchered Mujib, and f'd every member of his family. Only one daughter survived just because she was OUT of the sonar bangla.
Bengalis by their very actions proved that they hated the guts of Mujib.
Even after 40+ years of so-called independence they are poorer and hungrier than they used to before 1971.
Have you ever heard of the months of "monga"? the hunger months?
It is easy for all of us in Karachi to have fat bellies and still talk about "perceived" deprivation.
And if some sane person challenges these lies aka perceptions, the cries of Bangladesh are thrown around willy nilly.
Just not to be confused I wanted to clarify what I am arguing
1) MQM is no better & no worse then rest of the political forces in Pakistan.
2) Democracy is not an absolute system..., empirically reached outcome might not always be normatively valid.., therefore democratically elected leadership must always be critically assessed..., but this assessment must always be objective.., rather then based on preconceived notion, personal bias & inconsistent standards...
analyze the previous posts tell me one post that is critically analyzing any matter of policy..., ideology or political manifesto..., all I can see was either this guy is kaala.., a brainless gainda or a piglet..... , or that this party is an opportunist - I dont deny that but our entire political history is filled with such politicians... it does not justify it.., it only proves my first point or that this party is a facists , criminal & racist... I am not saying they are or they arent(although which party isnt) ..., but prove it in a court of law..., until then they are just allegations or your personal opinions,, until the matter is decided in a court of law the judgment of the court of people must be accepted.
3) While people's perception may be delusional..., driven by propoganda & may not be in their best interest.., & you based on your intellect & insight fully recognize the fault in their reasoning... & perceptions, while in this situation you have every right to educate people & make them understand where they are losing perspective...
but just because based on your superior intellect something is not right & you have the power to override peoples judgment it does not give you the right to do so..,
this principle was not accepted in East Pakistan irrespective of the outcome (although I do believe your understanding of Bengladesh's current standing is not entirely accurate but since I dont want to debate this I will not press this any further)
this principle was not accepted for Congress against the will muslims of undivided India to block the creation of Pakistan & certainly this principle is not accepted in case of Isreal against palestine.
You raised a very good point regarding Shaikh Mujeeb-Ur-Rehman.... history should not be analyzed in terms of whether the people of East Pakistan were right or wrong in choosing him as their leader..., rather the point of analysis should be whether we were right or wrong in our stand to suppress their choice because it did not satisfied our standards of acceptability.
A party ceases to be 'political' as soon as it starts using violence to achieve its objectives. That's the objective measurement you people are seeking......
The principle is valid but the application of this principle to a particular party of your choosing while ignoring others is your own subjective choice....,
..... history should not be analyzed in terms of whether the people of East Pakistan were right or wrong in choosing him as their leader..., .....
No siree.
History should be analyzed in terms of Bengalis "incorrect" perceptions.
Bengalis were fed the lies that somehow West is eating their guts.
The reality was that the West was feeding their guts.
The same thing is true for modern day "perceptions" of our community.
We want to tell everyone and their cousin that we are being the oppressed party.
The reality is that we have oppressed the original inhabitants of Sindh to a point that they have been wiped out from Urban Sindh.
We have done to local Sindhis what Europeans did to native Indians in the Americas.
And still we want to f@rt about BDeshis at the drop of hat (or topi).
The principle is valid but the application of this principle to a particular party of your choosing while ignoring others is your own subjective choice....,
I do not consider JI or Pakistan Army as a political party either but since we are talking about a particular mafia, lets keep it there.
A party ceases to be 'political' as soon as it starts using violence to achieve its objective
So what party in Pakistan is 'political' now by your definition? Nawaz ghundas? PPP jiyalas? Jamati thugs? JUI jihadis?
And what would you call the establishment including the army and intelligence agencies who had stopped doing their jobs and become political puppet masters?
The lies of the ISI right wingers for which thousands of innocent mohajirs were massacred are now fully out in the open and the best this so-called "majority" can do is lie even more to cover up earlier lies!
Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered
Jinnahpur or no Jinnahpur their is no doubt that MQM leaders and worker did commited the crimes.
How come no one is talking about PPP and Nasirullah Babar's actions in Karachi?
Is that because this thread (and the quoted ARY program) is supposed to be increasing hatred between us and Punjabis?
If that's the case, it should be made clear by KK.
Perhaps he plans to open a separate thread for flaming hatred between us and Sindhis/Pakhtuns.
Simple, because the MQM terrorists are now in bed with the PPP and though they hate the PPP, just like they hate every other party of Pakistan, and every other province/city, they cant say anything against the PPP or they would have to sit in the opposition.
Now today that fat tub of lard, altaf is asking nawaz why the military was not stopped from operating against them in 1992. Well, the fat pig forgot that he formed an alliance with Nawaz in 1997! Us waqat bhool gya tha kya kaaliya?
Re: Truth in allegations of Jinnahpur uncovered
Another whopper from King Kong 
He said that invisible forces were behind the May 12 mayhem.