Torture at Abu Ghraib (MERGED)

OG, I understand that MPs tend to be rocks, but the 800th MP Bde was a reserve unit. From what I’ve seen they weren’t assisted by active component MPs experienced in running a facility. If they realize they don’t know what the hell they’re doing, this is available from .mil computers (which were abundant): FM 3-19.40, Military Police Internment/Resettlement Operations; or they could just speak up (also keep in mind that this is the prison near the airport, where the US has very nice facilities, plus the Green Zone is just to their east in town). Institutional dysfunctions, not due to the rush of war or any such thing (from Taguba’s rpt):

I’ll agree with you on the other points :smiley:
(which is not a good thing! :frowning: )

Oops.. one more cut & paste for the record:
Q Iraqi TV has shown what appear to be American POWs, and also what appear to be American dead. Your reaction?

THE PRESIDENT: I expect them to be treated, the POWs I expect to be treated humanely. And – just like we’re treating the prisoners that we have captured humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals.
Will they?

That was the Prez March 23 last year when Jessica Lynch & co were shown on Al Jazeera! :eek:

:rolleyes:

Spoon,

As Clint Eastwood said in “Heartbreak Ridge”, “Don’t think that this means that we will be taking long hot showers together” :wink:

Here is the description of the Unit command over the 336th Military Police Battalion:

"The 220th Military Police Brigade is an ACRC (Active Component / Reserve Component) in Gaithersburg, MD. "

Sections of the 336th have served in Bosnia/Kosovo, and are not complete newbies. Moreover this is an outstanding article from a former MI sargeant who served in Iraq until he was injured. Very powerful:

A Disaster, Pure and Simple

By David DeBatto

Just about everyone on earth who has access to a newspaper, a television, a radio, a computer or even word of mouth has now heard or read about the horrific abuses that took place at the U.S military detention facility at Abu Ghraib, Iraq, also known as BCCF, or Baghdad Central Correctional Facility.

Regardless of whether you think that the prisoner abuses in these documented cases were somehow justified as payback for the four American civilian contractors that were killed and mutilated in Fallujah some weeks back (although I would have to seriously question your judgment if you do), I think everyone will admit that this one incident has set back the entire effort of Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) to square one, if not beyond.

I actually fear that this disaster, and there is no other word for it, could begin the unraveling of our efforts in Iraq. It has the potential, in my opinion, to be that serious. I say this not as a chicken little, but as one who served in Iraq and dealt extensively with Iraqis at all levels.

Before I launch into an explanation about the Arab psyche, I have to give my honest, gut reaction to this whole thing. This was one of the worst cases of both failed leadership by the chain of command as well as boneheaded decision-making by soldiers I have seen in some time. And, as I have already said, it may well have long-lasting ramifications. All good soldiers, hell, all good Americans know what these service members did in those photographs and what is described in Maj. Gen. Antonio M.Taguba’s report is flat-out wrong. Period. No amount of “We didn’t have any training” or “There was no copy of a Geneva Convention available” mitigates what happened.

I am frankly appalled that soldiers, NCOs as a matter of fact, in the United States Army in the year 2004 can say with a straight face that they were told to obey an unlawful order and that they did not know that they did not have to follow that order; that they had not only the right, but the responsibility not to follow that order. That sodomizing, physically assaulting injured and even uninjured prisoners, pouring hot liquids over naked bodies, photographing forced homosexual sex and other grotesque acts, were not only unlawful, but morally reprehensible as well. What were they thinking?

How can a soldier reach the rank of sergeant or staff sergeant or even private 1st class and not know right from wrong? For that matter, how can any adult that calls himself or herself an American? This was certainly a gender-neutral affair as we have all been graced with the grinning image of the female MP in at least two of the photos shown by the news media.

And what about the chain of command in all of this? Where were they? How could all of this happen without some senior officers knowing what the heck was going on? Well, the answer is that it didn’t, or at least it shouldn’t have.

It appears from Taguba’s report that there was a situation at Abu Ghraib where the facility commander, Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, did not know who, in fact, was running the prison. She though that perhaps the Military Intelligence commander, Col. Thomas M. Pappas of the 205 MI Brigade, was running her facility, at least the wing housing the High Value Targets (HVT). Col. Pappas, it seems, did not know that he had such authority and gave little to no direction over MI or MP activities there. Basically, it appears that no one was in charge of the sections of Abu Ghraib where the abuse allegations occurred. It is not surprising that things got out of control in such a leadership vacuum.

Yes, I have heard all of the rebuttals from other soldiers trying to defend the accused. “What about the four contractors”? “How come only we have to play by the rules”? “How would you feel if you had to deal with these a*******?” And even “Who cares what happens to some Iraqis anyway”?

This needs to be said:

We, the United States of America, do not hold ourselves to the same standards as the Iraqis, or the Arabs or the Somalis, or Al Qaeda or anyone else. We are supposed to stand for something, something higher and better than the rest. That’s why many of us joined the military in the first place, to defend the greatest country on earth because we are different than the rest of the world.

Why? Because we hold ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else. We do not indiscriminately slaughter everyone in a village just because they killed one or more of our soldiers, even in brutal fashion, like in Somalia or Fallujah. We do not torture and murder defenseless prisoners in our custody just because they are fighting for a particularly despicable cause. We just don’t do it.

To do so would undermine everything every service member has fought and died for in Iraq, Afghanistan, Gulf War I, Vietnam and every other action in this country’s great history.

Let’s not even begin to go down that path.

Contributing Editor David DeBatto is a retired Army staff sergeant and Counterintelligence Special Agent who served in Operation Iraqi Freedom where he was injured in combat.
http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=DefenseWatch.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=470&rnd=817.395943978948

The couple at the centre of a scandal that horrified the world](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=518946)

By Andrew Buncombe in Fort Ashby, West Virginia
07 May 2004

Those who know Lynndie England look at the photographs and cannot believe what they are seeing. Having been confronted for several days with images of the 21-year-old tormenting and sexually humiliating Iraqi prisoners, they say the woman they recognise in the shocking pictures is not the person they recognise from the lives they shared.

Ms England’s mother, Terrie, told the Baltimore Sun newspaper: “It’s all over the news, but we’re not hearing anything new. They just keep showing the pictures. How many times do I have to see those pictures?”

With more evidence of the abuse involving half-a-dozen members of the Army’s 372nd Military Police Company emerging every day, friends, relatives and neighbours across the hills of north-east Appalachia, that down-at-heel part of the US that includes West Virginia, Pennsylvania and western Maryland, speak not only of their revulsion, but of their shock, of pride being replaced with disgust.

Confronted with one of the most recent photographs, which shows Ms England holding a prisoner by a lead, friends could barely accept it was the woman they had seen off to Iraq. Destiny Goin, Ms England’s best friend, told The Washington Post: “It just makes me laugh because that is not Lyn. She wouldn’t pull a dog by its neck, let alone drag a human being.” Ms England grew up in the small town of Fort Ashby in West Virginia, close to the border with Maryland. Her mother said that she volunteered for the army reserves while still at high school, going on basic training while most other students were taking up summer jobs.

After training, she returned to Fort Ashby to work at a chicken-processing plant and signed up with the Army’s 372nd, based in Cumberland, Maryland. She had been married briefly but the relationship ended before she left for Iraq last year.

She had joined the reserves to earn money for college, her family said, and they talked of another young woman from West Virginia who went to Iraq and found herself in the news for the wrong reasons: Jessica Lynch.

Indeed, Ms England’s family were quick to draw comparisons between their daughter and the young woman who was taken prisoner by the Iraqis, then collected from an Iraqi hospital by US special forces in a operation spun by the Pentagon as a dramatic rescue mission.

“Just like what happened with that Lynch girl, this is getting blown out of proportion,” Ms England’s father said. “But in a negative way rather than a positive way.”

It is hard to think of how much more negative the publicity surrounding their daughter could be. The photographs that have been published and broadcast around the world show Ms England smiling and smirking, while pointing to the genitals of the hooded prisoners.

Testimony from a soldier suggests that as one of the prisoners was forced to masturbate in front of a friend, Ms England, 21, shouted: “He’s getting hard.” Friends describe Ms England as independent-minded, someone “not afraid to break a nail”, but her mother insisted her daughter was not trained as a guard. “She didn’t guard them, she booked them. She just happened to be there when they took these photographs.” At the time when the prisoners were being abused, at the end of last year, the people of Fort Ashby and the surrounding area were starting to think of Ms England and her colleagues as heroes. Knowing they were helping provide security at the prison made notorious by Saddam Hussein, friends posted pictures of them in the local courthouse and in the Wal-Mart supermarket.

But Mrs England said her daughter telephoned from Baghdad in January with news that would shatter that pride. She said the US army had launched an investigation into alleged abuse at the prison. “I just want you to know there might be some trouble,” she told her mother.

Ms England has not yet been charged with any offence but she has been detained at the huge military base at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, for several months.

Her mother said she has lost 25 lbs and has been sick, spending most of the time sleeping. She had been on the phone to her daughter one day last week while the television news was on. “You’re on every channel,” she told her daughter. “There you are and there’s a naked Iraqi and there’s you with your thumb up.”

She said her daughter had told her: “Mom, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.” Ms England’s family will not comment on her pregnancy or her relationship with Charles Graner, a former prison officer from Uniontown, Pennsylvania, one of the six soldiers from the regiment facing courts-martial.

Mr Graner’s neighbours said they were stunned by the revelation that he was apparently involved in abuse. Painted on a stone outside of his home is a verse from the Book of Hosea. It says: “Sow for yourselves righteousness, reap the fruit of unfailing love and break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to see the Lord, until he comes and showers righteousness on you.”

A neighbour, Thomas Zavada, said he had seen pictures of Mr Graner, standing with a broad grin, in front of a pyramid of naked prisoners. “It’s not the American way,” Mr Zavada said. “We’re not supposed to treat people like that.”

But court records obtained by The Independent show this is not the first time Mr Graner was involved in abuse. His former wife, Staci, obtained three separate “temporary protection of abuse” orders against him. In a document passed to the court, she told of one occasion when he went to her house after their divorce.

“[He] yanked me out of … bed by my hair, dragging me and all of the covers into the hall and tried to throw me down the steps,” she wrote. “Both of the children witnessed this and were screaming at this point. He let go of me, turned around to the children and said, ‘See what your Mommy is doing to us’.”

The Independent has also learnt that Mr Graner, a former US Marine, was working at Greene Correctional Facility when the prison was at the centre of an abuse scandal. Officials there have declined to say whether Mr Graner was involved or disciplined.

I really don't like these stories where they go around and ask.. "so, your son/daughter is an axe murderer, who'd a thunk? .. Oh, I can't believe it! that's not my baby! blah friggin blah" What the hell do these reporters expect these people, family and friends to say?!

Anyway, I saw another article about dumb bitch's family and everyone quoted was quoted as saying "she was in the wrong place at the wrong time" at least once. What these hillbillies (we're talking WVa, it's not a slur) miss in that equation is that she wasn't just in the wrong place at the wrong time.. she was doing the wrong thing! Like any of that is supposed to defer blame anyhow??

Few more “isolated” incidents…

Let assued the widspread abuse was “isolated” too..

Red Cross Saw ‘Widespread Abuse’ in Iraq

Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!

By Richard Waddington

GENEVA (Reuters) - Iraqi detainees were subjected to “serious violations,” with abuse so widespread it may have been condoned by U.S.-led coalition forces, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said Friday.

Breaking with its usual vow of silence, the Geneva-based humanitarian organization said visits to coalition detention centers in Iraq (news - web sites), carried out between March and November 2003, had shown infringements of international treaties on the treatment of prisoners of war.

In some cases, the ill-treatment was “tantamount to torture,” particularly when interrogators were seeking information or confessions, the ICRC said in a report, parts of which were published in U.S. financial daily the Wall Street Journal.

Pierre Kraehenbuehl, director of ICRC operations, confirmed the contents of the report at a news conference but said the Red Cross, whose reports are confidential, would not issue the rest of the document.

He said the report referred mainly to the actions of U.S. forces at Baghdad’s notorious Abu Ghraib prison and elsewhere, although the ICRC had also expressed concerns over the past year to British commanders. He gave no further details.

“Our findings do not allow us to conclude that what we were dealing with at Abu Ghraib were isolated acts of individual members of coalition forces. What we have described is a pattern and a broad system,” he said.

Pictures of grinning U.S. soldiers abusing naked Iraqis at Abu Ghraib – the largest prison in the country and notorious for torture under Iraqi President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) – have sparked an international outcry.

The excerpts published by the Wall Street Journal spoke of the use of ill-treatment that “went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated” by coalition forces.

That differs sharply from the view of senior officials in the Bush administration that military higher-ups had not condoned abuse, the newspaper said.

In the report, the ICRC said prisoners at Abu Ghraib were held naked in empty cells and beaten by soldiers. Three former military policemen at the prison told Reuters Thursday that abuse was commonplace.

The humanitarian group also said coalition forces fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers and killed some of them, as well as committing “serious violations” of the Geneva Conventions governing treatment of war prisoners.

The Red Cross said Thursday it had repeatedly urged the United States to take “corrective action” at the jail.

** Soldiers Back in U.S. Tell of More Iraq Abuses **

By Adam Tanner

ANTIOCH, California (Reuters) - Three U.S. military policemen who served at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison said on Thursday they had witnessed unreported cases of prisoner abuse and that the practice against Iraqis was commonplace.

“It is a common thing to abuse prisoners,” said Sgt. Mike Sindar, 25, of the Army National Guard’s 870th Military Police Company based in the San Francisco Bay area. "I saw beatings all the time.

“A lot of people had so much pent-up anger, so much aggression,” he said. Sindar and the other military policemen, who have returned to California from Iraq (news - web sites), spoke in interviews with Reuters.

U.S. treatment of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib has stirred wide international condemnation after the publication of photos in recent days showing Americans sexually humiliating prisoners. Six soldiers in Iraq have been charged in the case and President Bush (news - web sites) apologized publicly on Thursday.

Although public attention has focused on the dehumanizing photos, some members of the 870th MP unit say the faces in those images were not the only ones engaged in cruel behavior.

“It was not just these six people,” said Sindar, the group’s nuclear, biological and chemical weapons specialist. “Yes, the beatings happen, yes, all the time.”

An officer in their group was reprimanded last year after holding down a prisoner for other men to beat, Sindar told Reuters. Sindar and fellow military policeman Ramon Leal said they saw hooded prisoners with racial taunts written on the hoods such as "camel jockey’ or slogans such as “I tried to kill an American but now I’m in jail.”

Leal said one female soldier in his unit fired off a slingshot into a crowd of prisoners. Sindar, who was familiar with the incident, said one person was injured.

Another group of soldiers knocked a 14-year-old boy to the ground as he arrived at the prison and then twisted his arm, Sindar and Leal said.

“The soldiers were laughing at him,” said Leal. “I saw the other soldiers that would take out their frustrations on the prisoners.”

Until earlier this year prisoners would arrive at Abu Ghraib with broken bones, suggesting they had been roughed up, he said. But the practice ended in January or February, as practices at the prison were coming under increased internal scrutiny.

Photos obtained by Reuters show U.S. soldiers looking into body bags of three Iraqi prisoners killed by 870th MP guards during a prison riot in the fall of 2003. One photograph shows a bearded man with much of his bloodied forehead removed by the force of a bullet.

“We were constantly being attacked, we had terrible support … also being extended all the time, a lot of us had problems with our loved ones suffering from depression,” said another of the military policemen, Spc. Dave Bischel. “It all contributes to the psychological component of soldiers when they get stressed.”

The Californians’ remarks were unusual, as U.S. soldiers have been reluctant to speak out in public on the issue.

Some say investigators went out of their way to keep the allegations under wraps. When military investigators were looking into abuses several months ago, they gave U.S. guards a week’s notice before inspecting their possessions, several soldiers said.

“That shows you how lax they are about discipline. ‘We are going to look for contraband in here, so hint, hint, get rid of the stuff,’ that’s the way things work in the Guard,” Leal said.

All occupying forces in Iraq, whether they are from the US/UK are fair targets. May God Bless the Iraqi resistance. There is absolutely NO moral justification for all of these actions.

To the Americans: Recheck your priorities: The US is involved in an illegal war of occupation and control, and to further the tragedy, it is humiliating the Iraqi people.

I have good friends (some of them Muslim) who currently in Iraq, as part of the military. I feel bad for many of the 20 yr olds who fighting and dying there. But let me make things clear, in Iraq, the new face of Evil is the US and its alliance.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by RajputFury: *
But let me make things clear, in Iraq, the new face of Evil is the US and its alliance.
[/QUOTE]

New face of evil we new these colonial thugs where evil from day 1.

These sadistic pictures of US trained soldiers torturing and humiliating women and men of all ages has opened the eyes of many who did`nt want to believe the true face of colonial occupation and what it entails!

As my wife said. 'The abuse is only coming into the open because the British and Americans have been 'gripped'. The abuse has been ongoing since day one'.

Anyone from Britain should understand the slang gripped!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *

New face of evil we new these colonial thugs where evil from day 1.

These sadistic pictures of US trained soldiers torturing and humiliating women and men of all ages has opened the eyes of many who did`nt want to believe the true face of colonial occupation and what it entails!
[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Ak, I meant that the old face of evil was Saddam, hence the new face comment. Indeed these colonists have evil intentions..

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
As my wife said. 'The abuse is only coming into the open because the British and Americans have been 'gripped'. The abuse has been ongoing since day one'.

Anyone from Britain should understand the slang gripped!
[/QUOTE]

Sholey well said. Even if disregard the present. The colonists have been knocking down doors, disrepecting women, and rounding up men all for their own safety.

Anymore 'isolated' and we'll have to redefine the word regular let alone isolated!

Perfect explanation of some people's comments here.

[thumb=H]ArabStreet-X14447_3500195.JPG[/thumb]

Regardless what happened in Iraq was wrong, from either the Americans or Iraqis. At least the americans will be punished for it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Perfect explanation of some people's comments here.

[thumb=H]ArabStreet-X14447_3500195.JPG[/thumb]

Regardless what happened in Iraq was wrong, from either the Americans or Iraqis. At least the americans will be punished for it.
[/QUOTE]

Imdad, one day you will get your comeuppance from the very same Americans that like to kiss @$$

You know what the sad thing is? Son, your just an immigrant a fresh of the boat one...This Springfield Mass born guppie calls it like it is, unlike you who pretends to be more amriki than the Americans.

Being born in America doesn't make one more of an american RF. There are a lot of fundo knuckleheads, who are born in AMerica. THey are not americans.

You are equating Americans with Saddam in your post above. Americans are the ones who are publicy crying out against the prison atrocities, americans are the ones who are asking for justice, americans are the ones who are asking for punishment of these criminals..Americans are ashamed. We don;t stick our head in the sand and come up with conspiracy theories about Jews. Beacuse we take responsibility not displace the blame.

Matsui

But the fundamental difference is that Saddam never preached democracy, liberation, freedom and any other bull. Neither did he preach to be the Best in the West etc. With Saddam, you knew what you were getting.

The Americans are only crying out aloud, because they have been caught red handed!

These deplorable acts doesn't mean that democracy, freedom and liberation aren;t reflective of what America is. Acts like these soil the image of America, but it doesn;t mean that we should stop promoting these values, because at the end of the day, these are more universal than anything else the rest of the world has to offer.

When things like these happen, the responsibility to seek remediation is felt by all americans. The irate letters to the NYTimes, WSJ and every little media publication and personal apologies being offered throught he media by ordinary americans makes this country what it is.

I do no teven want to draw a parallel to most of the muslim/arab world which acts like an ostrich.Imdad's cartoon clip is quite a good example of that mindset, even on this board.

**
Being born in America doesn't make one more of an american RF. There are a lot of fundo knuckleheads, who are born in AMerica. THey are not americans. **

Matty, how quickly you rise to defend an @$$ kisser. Anyone born in America is an American...last time I checked that was one of the requirements of being American. Being 'naturalized' is just that, being accepted. I have friends whose families that came on the Mayflower, who have voiced stronger opinions than mines in reference top Iraq. I am glad to see that some of my brown are saying hanji to their masters. As President Bush said "brown ppl deserve freedom too" I await the day he lets these ppl off of his leash.
**
You are equating Americans with Saddam in your post above. Americans are the ones who are publicy crying out against the prison atrocities, americans are the ones who are asking for justice, americans are the ones who are asking for punishment of these criminals..Americans are ashamed.
**

Who was talking about Americans? I am referring to the US Military, President Bush, Rummy and Co. Baathists also operated on the same parameters with Military, Saddam and Co. Humiliations, murders etc.

Hey Matty, I am sure you must be happy seeing Muslims kicked around like this..come on now wheres the :) ??

**
We don;t stick our head in the sand and come up with conspiracy theories about Jews. Beacuse we take responsibility not displace the blame. **

Ok so now you want to be included in that same category of people that I described to correlate the Bush regime? If you want it you got it. If by any chance you are referring to the American ppl, the heck yes they have never been 100% for the war, so they every right to scream.

RF: You will never understand what being an American means until you remove the mullahs hand from your own A$$.

So what if your friends are members of DAR and they protest the war. It is their right. No one ever argued that they didn't? What is your point? ANd just because some one who is naturalized and has brown skin, he/she cannot agree with the War?What kind of logic is that? Only the mayflower progeny has the right to have opinions?And you ofcourse?

Us is not involved in an illegal war. How come you weren;t shouting fro rafters when muslims were being saved in Kosovo? That was preemptive action as well, on far less tangible terms than this war.

I am not even gonna comment on your last piece, it makes less sense than the rest of your post.