Torture at Abu Ghraib (MERGED)

I can’t tell you how sickened I am by all this. God I hope they hurt the people who did this. And Rumsfled needs to go. However, the most thoughtful editorial I have come across is from the Lebanon Star. It’s long, but well worth the read.

Abu Ghraib, or how to lose some perspective on a very foul affair

By Michael Young
Special to The Daily Star
Thursday, May 06, 2004

The mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison has been a rancid egg in the face of the Bush administration, the US military and those of us who have defended the Iraq war as a possible gateway to a pluralistic Iraqi political system. However, the way the prisoners’ story has been conveyed has made many observers lose perspective of the implications of what happened.

What did happen was that American intelligence and military police officers, in actions probably condoned (or at best criminally neglected) by their superiors, humiliated Iraqi prisoners in clear violation of the laws of war. According to an army report on Abu Ghraib uncovered by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh of the New Yorker, there were also at least two Iraqi fatalities at the prison - the photograph of one of them is readily available on the internet.

By any yardstick, what occurred at Abu Ghraib was unacceptable and shameful. On Monday, the military reprimanded seven individuals who had command responsibility at Abu Ghraib. It is expected that others directly involved in the abuse of Iraqis will be punished more harshly. For any judgment to be fair, individuals in the entire chain of command must be investigated and, if guilty, sanctioned.

However, widespread disgust with the photographs shouldn’t detract from a number of significant facts. The first is that the prisoners’ story has been driven mainly by Americans - specifically by the American media, feeding off military investigations on prisoner mistreatment and photographs and testimony provided by discontented servicemen. If nothing else, this underlines that the US has effective institutional mechanisms for reversing its own wrongdoing.

Yet this message has been overwhelmed by another, drawing precisely the opposite conclusion, namely that after Abu Ghraib Iraqis will never see anything valuable in US behavior in their country. That may be true, but it won’t be because the system didn’t work: Once the abuse by the Americans took place, the system did try to regulate itself, making a cover-up very difficult. That’s something Iraqis might want to take to the bank as they remember how Saddam Hussein promoted his torturers.

How did the institutional mechanisms work? Within the US military (and bearing in mind that US congressmen have accused the Pentagon of slackness), investigations were or are being prepared detailing the mistreatment. The army has initiated two reviews of American interrogation practices and one on the prison system in Iraq. However, it was a 53-page report by Major General Antonio Taguba completed last February that provided the most devastating account of delinquency. Hersh’s expose was to a considerable extent built around a leaked version of Taguba’s report, which found a pattern of “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses” at Abu Ghraib.

The second mechanism was provided by the much-maligned American media, hitherto collectively condemned as a confederacy of yes-men when dealing with Bush administration’s policies in Iraq. The CBS television program 60 Minutes broke the Abu Ghraib story, while Hersh and other reporters were instrumental in delving into its details. Again, and for purely self-serving reasons, Iraqis have a vested interest in applying such an example if they seek to prevent further abuse by the Americans or, more significantly, by a future Iraqi regime.

Much has also been made of the fact that the brutality at Abu Ghraib would further alienate Arabs from America. One doubts this: The Arabs were already deeply hostile to the US before the photos surfaced, so that the latest episode will have merely confirmed the long-held attitudes of a majority. Moreover, the US never enjoyed Hussein’s magic. When he was murdering tens of thousands of innocents in his vast archipelago of prisons, particularly Abu Ghraib, this coincided with a time when many in the Middle East, who knew of his abuses, held him up as a champion.

Does one show moral laxity by comparing Saddam’s crimes to those of the Americans - a comparison the US is bound to benefit from? The question has been posed in recent days, in the West particularly, as commentators have denied the validity of judging the behavior of a democracy against that of an especially savage dictatorship. What they implicitly propose is an absolute benchmark for morality.

Absolutes are appealing, but in imposing them, moralists must consider two points: That only a system which responds to censure through amelioration can eventually set lawful standards of behavior; and that some of Washington’s more zealous Middle Eastern critics often avoided applying a universal ethical yardstick when considering what took place under Saddam - even as the US today accepts their moral privilege to condemn its actions in Abu Ghraib.

There is no justification (let alone a politically expedient rationale) for a host of recent American undertakings in Iraq - whether the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners or the bombardment of civilians in Falluja. However, there is also no excuse for denying that what we have seen in the past week in the US has been the thrashing about of a democratic system that feels disgraced by the behavior of several of its citizens, and that intends to rectify matters.

The Egyptian playwright Ali Salem told me recently that the true indignity of the Iraq war was that it was not Arabs who had overthrown Saddam Hussein. He was right. As Arabs examine the photographs from Abu Ghraib and read about American misconduct there, they might reflect less on what this says about the US, which usually ponders its worst excesses, than what it says about their own systems, where such images could only have been glimpsed over the carcass of an overthrown regime.

Michael Young is opinion editor of THE DAILY STAR
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=3285

Another thought. The media has found at least two of the prisoners, one who wishes to leave Iraq because of his shame, another who wants to be an Iraqi policeman. The military should have found these men BEFORE the media did, and apologized and made offers of compensation. Ths names of these men were disclosed last fall in the militaries own reports. If indeed this is an isolated occurance, then there is no harm in compensating them, we owe them that.

Maureen Dowd is a dumbass. Just wanted to say that.

Anyway, here's Conservative super-hero Rush Limbaugh on all this:
This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?
Where's the outrage?

More morality?

This is the photo released by the Washington Post:
[thumb=H]iraqprisoner211340_2897595.JPG[/thumb]

This is the photo Drudge uses:
[thumb=H]irr17616_8916206.JPG[/thumb]

Oh, no, don't worry.. it's just a couple isolated guys having fun.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by spoon: *
Maureen Dowd is a dumbass. Just wanted to say that.

Anyway, here's Conservative super-hero Rush Limbaugh on all this:
This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?
Where's the outrage?
[/QUOTE]

Rush limbaugh is an asshole. Fat *******!! Yes, I am angry at those sentiments.

Rush is high on his poppers. This is the type of activity he is use to at family reunions and what not so its just a different perspective, that’s all.

Rush can say this now, but there are still investigations going on about deaths, potential murders etc. I agree, that worse could have been done, and that it had the air of a frat party gone bad, but no one can minimize the damage it has caused. I suspect all of the bad news is not out yet.

Agree on Maureen Dowd....

And Spoon, count the number of boots in the picture. More than six guys by my count, plus the guy holding the camera. Funny that one victim said that for months things were fine, and then after a fight this nonsense began. Something snapped here....

Much agreed :k::k:

Anyway, I’ve got some other things to say and I’ll come back for that when I have time.. for now, back to my rant against Drudge:

compare/contrast this image of W hugging a girl who’s mom died on 9/11. The original is 180 x 240 pixels, Drudge stretches it in the html to [220] x 350.

But he cropped the other one?

y do cons like rush love gay pyramids when they themselves are so homophobic… :confused:

I hope that the US looks into the abuse allegations made by the British Camp XRay captives...now of all times.

I think we agree that the pictures are horrible, shameful and very disturbing. But why t/ shock now?? Because we actually"saw" these pictures now? Red Cross and other major HUman Rights groups have been reporting this ever soince t/ 9/11 incident when young and old Muslim men were dragged tnto detention centres and left there to be treated like animals. This is not some case of "a few bad apples". They just got caught w/ their pants down and now t/ whole world is condemning the Americans. God knows what's going on in Guantanamo Bay??

Howevr. I would like to thank the American for summing up his/ her courage to show t/ rest of t/ world what is really going on in Iraqi and most definitely in prisons under t/ American occupation. It couldn't have been an easy route for this particular soldier considering t/ fate of t/ usual 'whistle blowers'. That particular individual is a true 'soldier'.

OK, I have some questions regarding the procedural side of things on all this..

Why were reservists in charge of the main detention center in Iraq--the most important theater of the WOT according to Rummy and gang? There is a detention center staffed by active duty Army folks in Manheim, Germany.. another in Vicenza, Italy.. both with relatively low workloads. Of course there is also Leavenworth. Experienced troops could have been siphoned off of each of these, not en masse, but enough to provide OJT guidance for the reservists and establish proper SOP.

Why were the intel operators demanding this waste of human resources. One of the big gripes is that the prison was understaffed. Taking the time to do these acts idiotic.. those are manhours wasted. The prisoners should have been screened one-by-one, I'm sure they were, and then a determination which were the true threats. Then those guys get pushed around a bit.. but certainly not this craziness. It's simply not effective.

Why did these idiots take pictures? The MPs' lawyers are saying that the MI folks asked for them. If that's the case the MI school seriously needs a looking over. Combined with the gross stupidity of the point above and this one, too many people obviously didn't know their job.

Why was leadership allowed to be so damn incompetent? Sure, there are units in the military where ****birds thrive, the MP corps is famous for them. But, again, considering the value of the facility's mission, why?

It is these things that show a systemic problem in the ranks. If Rumsfeld truly believes Iraq is a breeding ground for terrorism he should have had the initiative to follow up on one of his prime sources of human intelligence and kept it in the spotlight through his subordinates. That is gross negligence. That is a firing offense, the president's 'confidence' be damned.

Aw, man.. is this gonna be another of those threads to rival the Encyclopaedia Britannica? Can't y'all just clip out the relevant parts of whatever article you want us to read? There's enough other stuff to keep up with.. can't read everything, specially when it's that long. Just leave a link or something.

What that Guardian article is trying desperately to refer to is called Project X, from the School of the Americas.

I was wondering when someone would try bringing that up. Y'know, it's a nice try but doesn't quite work like that. It would be relevant for historical context, but the Project X books were good.. these guys in Iraq were idiots.. they didn't use any of those manuals. Those manuals don't even exist anymore. So, yeah, it's fun for building up the outrage, but there's already plenty on the table to be pissed about.

This will only give the defense a means of criticizing those who pursue this. Rush is gonna be citing this tomorrow, talking about what conspiracy nuts everyone who complains about Abu Ghuraib are.. and he'll be right so long as he's talking about this line of attack.

More pictures i can`t belive this.

This is worse than i ever imagined. I thought Saddam was bad enough but so called nation of Freedom and Democracy this is the pits.

I have`nt seen such disgusting behaviour since the Bosnian conflict.

The torture is systamatic the instructions for this behaviour comes from the top which is the CIA and Senior officials.

The soldiers do not get the idea to torture and disgrace people from no where, they are trained or asked to do these things by the top people.

As one commentator put it the conspiracies alleged aganist the US are no longer conspiracies!

Re: New crisis for Bush & Blair: iraqi murdered and packed in ice!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
[thumb=H]iraq7882_9979284.JPG[/thumb]

[/QUOTE]

I hope every US terrorist soldier in Iraq ends up like in the picture above, and then spat on afterwards.

[thumb=H]ab6846_2274787.JPG[/thumb]

Spoon,

1) Reservists-- First, MP duty is useful in the reserves and the National guard. In the case of a natural disaster they are useful in securing an area, patrolling against looters etc. Generally reserve units deploy as an addition to an active duty unit. So some of the characters involved may have been reservists, but they were probably augmenting another unit. Let's face it, there is not a lot of skill required to be an MP. They would not be the shrpest tools in the shed.

2) The lack of translators and interrogators made it difficult to set people free, that is what caused the overcrowding. With bombs going off, and troops getting killed their worst nightmare was setting someone free who would kill someone tomorrow.

3) I read carefully the articles about two of the victims. One was very specific in saying that for a few months, in two separate locations things were just fine. Then a Abu Graib there was a big fight. Most of the worst photos are from the punishment after that fight. The photos of the guy with the wires standing on the boxa was another matter. Why did they take photos? Idiots. I think a lot of it is as simple as keeping souveniers. In other words, they truely did not fathom how bad this was, or they would have destroyed the photos.

4) The leadership was criminally negligent. The General Karpinski is a complete moron. She was on the TV trying to deflect blame, create spin, and lawyer her way out of this. She is just clueless as to the impact of the impact this could have. She should be in Leavenworth.

5) I think that Rumsfeld is a dead man walking. If his hearing behind closed doors with congress tomorrow is not completely brilliant, then he will volunteer to resign, and the President will reluctantly accept. Like a good soldier he will fall on his sword.

Just when you thought the amerikkans had reached the lowest levels of humanity!

US soldiers who detained an elderly Iraqi woman placed a harness on her, made her crawl on all fours and rode her like a donkey, Prime Minister Tony Blair’s personal human rights envoy to Iraq has claimed.

During five visits to Iraq in the last 18 months, Ms Clwyd said, she had stopped at British and US jails, including Abu Ghraib, and questioned everyone she could about the woman’s claims. But she did not say whether that included US forces or commanders.

Asked for details, Ms Clwyd told The Associated Press that she “didn’t want to harp on the case because as far as I’m concerned it’s been resolved”.

Ms Clwyd, 67, is a strong Blair supporter who regularly visits Iraq and reports back on issues such as human rights, the delivery of food and medical supplies to Iraqis, and Iraq’s Kurdish minority. Her job as Blair’s human rights envoy is unpaid and advisory.

Ms Clwyd said the Iraqi woman was arrested in Iraq last July and accused of having links to a former member of Saddam Hussein’s regime, a charge she denied.

The abuse occurred in Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison and at another coalition detention centre, Ms Clwyd said.

“She was held for about six weeks without charge,” the envoy told yesterday’s Evening Standard. “During that time she was insulted and told she was a donkey. A harness was put on her, and an American rode on her back.”

Ms Clwyd said the woman had recovered physically but remained traumatised.

“I am satisfied the case has now been resolved satisfactorily,” the envoy told BBC radio. “She got a visit last week from the authorities, and she is about to have her papers and jewellery returned to her.”

Ms Clwyd said she had been told about the case because the woman had relatives in Britain. Ms Clwyd, who said the woman did not want to be named, did not identify the American military unit involved.

GI Joes Abuse Elderly Iraqi Woman

ak .47

Learn to read other peoples posts. Spoon posted this on page 3.