[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
In future please refrain from posting links to other discussion forum sites.
[/QUOTE]
isn't Nawa-e-waqt a daily newspaper!! infact 2nd largest urdu newspaper after Jung.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kamran-Khan: *
isn't Nawa-e-waqt a daily newspaper!! infact 2nd largest urdu newspaper after Jung.
[/QUOTE]
Thap is not referring to Nawa-e-waqt link. There is one post removed from this thread that included a link to another forum.
OK Thap and Faisal. I didnot know the rule of this forum regarding links to other forums.
Anyways, in the post you removed, I asked if someone can find the letter which Iraqi woman, NOOR, send to all of us...
OR
If you can tell me how can I post it here so everyone can read it ??? I mean can you upload it for us because there is no option of attachments from your hard disk on this forum...waiting for your reply.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Prism Man: *
right, so saddam is now the industry standard? is that what america is trying to compare against and saying "oh we are much better than saddam". don't you wish they will get a better role model than saddam ??
[/QUOTE]
It's a strange circle of role models Bush Senior->Saddam->Bush Junior->Rumsfeld->Bush Senior->Saddam->Bush Junior etc etc etc.
It's getting so I can't tell them all apart:
[thumb=H]dubya_future18153_7827033.JPG[/thumb]
[thumb=H]saddam18153_5175960.JPG[/thumb]
Well I suppose the way to differentiate the above two is to suggest that one can ride a bicycle and the other one can't spell bicycle.
Yet more ‘average American’s’ defending the occupation torturers, rapists and murderers…
http://www.adn.com/24hour/nation/story/1402269p-8678520c.html
Neighbors defend Calif. man accused in Abu Ghraib scandal
Neighbors of a man named by a military investigator as a chief instigator of the abuse in Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison said they do not believe John Israel could have been involved in the scandal.
Israel, 48, who was born in Iraq and hired as an interpreter by a military contractor, was “either directly or indirectly responsible” for the mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at the notorious prison, according to a report from Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. That conflicts with what neighbor Blanche Muscia knew about Israel.
“He seems to be a very nice man. It seems so out of character that he would be accused of that,” she told The Signal of Santa Clarita in Friday’s newspaper. “I don’t think he has it in him to hit a man.” Israel has not been interviewed since the scandal broke, and his wife, Roza, wouldn’t discuss the allegations. “I’m instructed not to say anything until we get an attorney,” Roza Israel told the newspaper. The Israels moved to Santa Clarita from San Fernando in 1995 with their three daughters.
Taguba told the Senate Armed Services Committee that Israel and other contractors gave direction to guards at the prison. Taguba said the guards considered Israel and the others to be their superiors and believed they were military intelligence officers. The other contractors cited by Taguba as suspects in the abuse were interrogator Steven Stefanowicz and translator Adel L. Nakhla. In his report, Taguba outlined numerous abuses at the prison, including U.S. military police forcing Iraqi detainees to strip naked and pose in sexually suggestive positions, and threatening prisoners with guard dogs.
Israel is employed by SOS Interpreting, a New York-based translation service that was contracted by San Diego-based Titan Corp. Muscia said Israel had returned from Iraq in April but had plans to return, in part, because he needed money. He also felt a sort of fealty to Iraq. “He was really bent on going back,” Muscia said. “He said, ‘I want to help my people. It’s my duty to try to help them.’” Santa Clarita is about 30 miles north of Los Angeles.
Malik they're not defending the action they just don't believe that he was involved which the courts will decide, try again.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by underthedome: *
**Malik they're not defending the action they just don't believe that he was involved...*
[/QUOTE]
Yes, many American's are in deep denial about the atrocities their soldiers have committed in Iraq, and this feeling is common across America it seems. Well at least the home towns from where these criminals and terrorists hail from. It's a case of severe displacement disorder.
Your right that a great number of Americans were shocked at the abuse and while there are those closer to those accused of committing the abuse in denial the majority of Americans realize what has happened and aren't making excuses but calling for action to be taken to assure that this never happens again.
Camp Bucca reveals more dirty secrets
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=526331
Camp Bucca reveals more dirty secrets
Part two:Key witness to the killing of Baha Mousa says he recognised
his British attackers in identity parade
By Severin Carrell
30 May 2004
For Sattar Shukri Abdulla, it was another weary day in Camp Bucca, a
bleak, often violence-racked, prison camp in the far south of Iraq.
But then the Iraqi labourer was approached by some British officers
with an odd request: could he come and take a look at some soldiers
nearby?
Mr Abdulla found himself taking part in an impromptu identification
parade, in the prison camp near Umm Qasr, to point out the Queen’s
Lancashire Regiment troops who had allegedly beaten and tortured him
several weeks earlier. And, Mr Abdulla has told a British law firm, he
got a clear look at the suspects and identified at least one of them.
He is now a key witness in one of the most damaging controversies over
British army conduct in Iraq. His testimony could play a crucial part
in the prosecution of up to six QLR soldiers on charges of torturing
another Iraqi civilian, the hotel receptionist Baha Mousa, to death in
September last year.
As The Independent on Sunday revealed last week, Mr Abdulla was one of
five men arrested with Mr Mousa who have now come forward to testify
about their alleged torture and ill-treatment by the QLR.
Their witness statements, which claim their beatings were overseen by
a British officer, are expected to play a central role in a High Court
hearing in July into allegations that British troops have illegally
killed more than 20 Iraqi civilians in mistaken shootings, beatings
and riots.
The IoS has also learnt that the five men - who are planning to sue
the Government for compensation - have also given a detailed
description of the army officer who oversaw their interrogations and
allegedly threatened them with further physical abuse if they failed
to co-operate. They also have the name of one of the soldiers involved
in the abuse - a name that has been passed to The IoS.
Mr Abdulla, a 51-year-old with three children, was held at Camp Bucca
for 55 days after he and seven other hotel employees were arrested at
the Hotel Ibn Al-Haytham hotel in September last year. In chilling
irony, their initial interrogations took place in the former
headquarters of “Chemical Ali”, Ali Hassan al-Majid, one of the most
infamous of Saddam Hussain’s henchmen and the man who ordered the
gassing of the Kurdish village of Halabja in 1988, killing 5,000 people.
Yet conditions at Camp Bucca and its predecessor, a British-run
detention centre 2km away, had also been repeatedly criticised by
human rights agencies for the harsh treatment of detainees -
particularly those being “softened up” for interrogation.
A leaked report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, given
to the US and UK governments in February, reveals the ICRC had
complained last year to British commanders about “brutal treatment” at
the camp at Umm Qasr in the first weeks of the war.
After the camp was handed over to US forces in April 2003, inmates
were “routinely treated [with] general contempt, with petty violence
… cursed, kicked, struck with rifle butts, roughed up or pushed
around”. Detainees were also threatened by US troops with loaded
rifles and with transfer to Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. This ill-treatment
and the failure of the US and Britain to find and prosecute those
responsible, said the ICRC, broke a total of 11 clauses in the two
most recent Geneva Conventions.
Phil Shiner, a Birmingham solicitor whose firm is acting for Mr
Abdulla and others, has now gathered witness statements on more than
20 deaths allegedly involving British troops. But the full list of
cases in the public domain - based partly on disclosures by the
Ministry of Defence and investigations by Amnesty International - is
now closer to 40 suspicious deaths.
Last week the Armed Forces minister, Adam Ingram, disclosed that army
investigators are currently looking into the deaths of 10 Iraqi
civilians through “ill-treatment” - a higher figure than the six cases
originally listed by the MoD. Crucially, the MoD said the new figure
specifically excluded cases where Iraqis were shot, killed in traffic
accidents or died from natural causes in detention. However, it
refused to release any further details about these cases, or confirm
whether they include the six suspicious deaths listed by Mr Ingram in
the Commons earlier this year.
MoD officials said Government lawyers recently banned them from
releasing any further information about the cases in the wake of the
worldwide controversy over faked photographs published by the Daily
Mirror earlier this month. The MoD also insists it is investigating
all the allegations made against British forces and argues that
publicly discussing these cases will hamper the legal process.
Yet Mr Shiner, who is asking the High Court to order an independent
inquiry, claims none of his clients have yet been formally interviewed
by the Royal Military Police. He accused the MoD of failing to release
any information about the police inquiries into Mr Mousa’s death.
“Despite the number of witnesses and the documentary evidence, the
family are being kept in the dark,” he said. “This just underlines the
need for the independent inquiry that I and Amnesty International are
calling for.”
30 May 2004 19:19
It certainly is more than “a few bad apples”…
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2004/06/01/9737
Abu Ghraib: scandal grows
*United States must punish more than a “few bad apples.” *
A month has passed since photos depicting the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib facility shocked the public. Congress has conducted hearings, the media has unleashed an army of investigative journalists and the world has recoiled in anger at the United States’ faltering commitment to human rights.
Fallout from the scandal will no doubt continue, but one painful reality has already emerged. Far from the work of a “few bad apples,” as the Bush administration insists, the use of torture to weaken recalcitrant prisoners seems to have been official policy sanctioned at the highest levels of the Pentagon. Former Vice President Al Gore’s call last week for the resignations of six Bush administration officials, among them Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his three top aides, reflects a growing consensus that more than just a half dozen sadists run amok are culpable for these attrocities. Relying on past and present intelligence officials, New Yorker journalist Seymour Hersh recently opined the abuse was part of organized policy designed to generate intelligence on the ongoing Iraqi insurgency.
Newspapers reported last week that Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was present during some interrogations. In April the top U.S. intelligence officer at Abu Ghraib provided sworn testimony that the use of attack dogs was suggested by Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, former head of the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and personally approved by Lt. Gen. Sanchez. Three and four-star generals don’t earn their stars by ignoring the policy wishes of their civilian superiors in the Pentagon. It strains the imagination to think Rumsfeld or one of his aides did not approve the actions of Gens. Sanchez and Miller. Repairing our image throughout the world must include justice reaching the Pentagon and the higher military ranks. The Bush administration seems to hope that the public’s appetite for sickening images has waned and the scandal has passed. That may be true among Americans. But outside this country, the world is waiting for a sign that the United States is willing to right a course gone badly awry. Punishment for all individuals culpable for the Abu Ghraib wrongs would be a start.
So why are 2000 pages (1/3) of the US Army investigation report missing? After systematic torture, there now seems to be a systemtic cover up of the American war crimes at Abu Ghraib…
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/8845523.htm?1c
Documents on prison abuse are missing, panel says
The Senate Armed Services Committee is still missing key documents from the Army investigation into the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, including information on interrogation procedures that could clarify whether soldiers thought they were acting under orders. Among the missing documents is a report to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the head of prison operations in Iraq, on rules for interrogating prisoners. Miller toured the prisons in Iraq last summer, when he was commander of the prison camp at the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and recommended changes to interrogation procedures. Among Miller’s recommendations was using military police “to support interrogations,” said a Senate aide who had access to the classified Army report and who spoke on condition of anonymity. It’s unclear what Miller’s other recommendations were or whether Rumsfeld ever received them.
Also missing are a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which concluded that U.S. soldiers were systematically violating Iraqi detainees’ human rights, and a document that interrogators were to sign attesting that they understood and would abide by rules of engagement on interrogations, according to the Senate aide. The Bush administration has said the abuse of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib was the result of a few rogue soldiers acting on their own and that neither Rumsfeld nor other senior Pentagon officials approved any of the tactics that have brought worldwide criticism of the U.S. military.
But military police officers told Maj. Gen. Anthony Taguba, who headed the Army investigation, that they were acting under orders from intelligence commanders. Senate committee staff members discovered last month that about 2,000 pages were missing from the committee’s copy of the 6,000-page report. The Pentagon called the omission an oversight. Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Joseph Yoswa said Taguba, who’s in Kuwait, would send Congress a certified copy. Committee Chairman Sen. John Warner, R-Va., said he believed the Pentagon had cooperated fully. “Nobody is trying to hide, duck or evade the congressional request,” he said. Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the ranking Democrat on the committee, said he hoped the omission was unintentional but added the administration’s history of secrecy and “an unwillingness to share information with Congress” make him skeptical. The Senate aide who has seen the report said the key missing material related to the testimony of Col. Thomas Pappas, the commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, which conducted the interrogations at Abu Ghraib.
A written statement Pappas gave Feb. 11 referred to six attachments that weren’t in the committee’s copy, the aide said. Levin said the Pentagon’s handling of the Red Cross report, in particular, could reveal whether Pentagon officials knew of the abuse or attempted to cover it up. The agreement the interrogators signed might also outline the rules for interrogations. The Senate committee held three televised hearings in May on the abuse allegations and has heard about a third of the witnesses that it expects to call. The date of the next hearing hasn’t been set but probably will coincide with the release of a report from Maj. Gen. George Fay into military-intelligence management and practices at Abu Ghraib and throughout Iraq. Pentagon spokesman Yoswa said Fay’s report was due later this month.
A message from our sister,slap on our face
A message From an Iraqi female prisoner
Translated by Dijla Waheed
The albasrah .net has received the following letter (Please
see the translation below) from an Iraqi female prisoner. We
initially hesitated to publish this letter because we were not
sure about its authenticity. However, the people who gave it to us
were foreigners; who claimed to have had visited the Abu-Ghraib
Prison which is located in the outskirt of Baghdad, have insisted
that they had got the letter from an Iraqi female prisoners and
therefore we are doing our best to publish it on the albasrah.netIn the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
A message
To my family and all honest and honourable brothers in
Al-Ramadi, Al-Khladia and Al- Falluja, and to all honourable
people of the world, God’s peace is upon you.God has said in his holy book (In the Name of Allah, Most
gracious, Most Merciful)…A message from your sister Noor, who is sitting, in the
Jewish prison at Abu-Ghraib. I do not know where to begin, the
pencil is standstill unable to express… Shall I describe for you
the hunger and you are eating, or shall I describe the thirst and
you are drinking, or shall I describe the suffer of insomnia,
sleeplessness and you are sleeping, or shall I describe for you
our nakedness (nudity) and you are dressed. Brothers when we see
your cars and trucks passing by, transporting building materials,
and when we read the identity of your cars carrying the names of
my people and my municipality I say my people and my brothers have
sold their sister with their money (Dollars) but when I remember
the honourable people I start crying for my situation. What shall
I describe for you about what is happening to us around here, the
mental suffering, the physical torture and the heavy handed
beating which we try to endure just to keep our honour and keep
the vows. Where are you our religious leaders? Have you forgotten
the divine message which was carried by our Prophet Mohammed? Have
you forgotten us for the sake of the Dinars paid for you by the
Jewish? We shall bring you before God, we are your pledge in your
necks and you are responsible before God for our destiny.If this message falls in the hands of religious clerics who
are afraid of Almighty God, it is their duty to read it to people
from above of their pulpits. Remember that you once were looking
at your sisters in Palestine. We are suffering a lot especially
when we see the Jewish drinking alcohol and then rape us like wild
animals. You honourable people, how often you gonna die?!! We are
raped and tortured, our clothes are torn apart and we are hungry
and our stomachs are empty, who is coming to rescue us?!!!I do not want to say bye but before saying goodbye I would
like to advice you to be afraid of God, our wombs are carrying the
*******s of the sons of bitches.Before saying goodbye I would like to ask the honourable
people if you have weapon please kill us and kill all of them
inside the prison. Please do that, please do that, please do that.Your sister
Noor
10-02-2004
Arabic Translationhttp://www.albasrah.net/maqalat_mukhtara/arabic/022004/risala_aboghreb.htm
wtf!!!! where is my post gone!!
Not really a few rogue elements at all, but a systematic policy authorised from the top…
Iraq jail dog scare ‘was policy’](BBC NEWS | Americas | Iraq jail dog scare 'was policy')
US military dog handlers at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison say they were ordered to use their animals to intimidate detainees, according to media reports. They made the allegation in statements provided to military investigators, the Washington Post newspaper says. The handlers also said the jail’s top military intelligence officer had approved the tactic, the paper reports.
U.S. Religious Figures Offer Abuse Apology on Arab TV
WASHINGTON, June 10 — American spiritual leaders from different faiths condemn the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib in a 30-second advertisement to be broadcast next week on the Arabic television networks Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya.
“The impetus for this ad was from the deep sense of moral regret that we were hearing from people of faith across the country,” said Tom Perriello, the co-director of FaithfulAmerica.org — the month-old nonprofit advocacy group that created the ad.
“We believe that the abuses are both sinful and systematic and that the moral damage of this around the world will last a long time,” he said.
FaithfulAmerica.org — which has also focused on the human suffering in western Sudan — raised about $36,000 from more than 1,000 donors to produce and broadcast the ad. It is paying $20,000 for 10 slots on the two networks beginning Tuesday.
In the ad, a Presbyterian, a Muslim, a Catholic and a Jew read a statement as written Arabic translations appear.
“A salaam aleikum,” the Rev. Donald Shriver, a former president of the Union Theological Seminary in New York, begins. “As Americans of faith, we express our deep sorrow at abuses committed in Iraqi prisons. We stand in solidarity with all those in Iraq and everywhere who demand justice and human dignity. We condemn the sinful and systemic abuses committed in our name, and pledge to work to right these wrongs.”
The ad continues with Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the founder and president of the American Sufi Muslim Association; Sister Betty Obal, of the Sisters of Loretto; and Rabbi Arthur Waskow, the director of the Shalom Center in Philadelphia.
Mr. Perriello said recent news articles about Justice Department memos discussing the legality of the abuse made the ad’s message more salient.
“When the administration is even considering the legality of torture, that seems like a moral regression,” Mr. Perriello said, adding, “We don’t see this as a matter of legal terms, we see it as a matter of right and wrong.”
The US commander at the centre of the Iraqi prisoner scandal has blamed the abuse on the introduction of Guantanamo-style interrogation methods.
Brig Gen Janis Karpinski told the BBC the high-level decision meant prisoners had to be treated like dogs.
Gen Karpinski said Military Intelligence took over part of the Abu Ghraib jail to “Gitmoize” their interrogations - make them more like what was happening in the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
He said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you’ve lost control of them
She said current Iraqi prisons chief Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller - who was in charge at Guantanamo Bay - visited her in Baghdad and said: “At Guantanamo Bay we learned that the prisoners have to earn every single thing that they have.”
**“He said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you’ve lost control of them.” **
Us torture and Abuse originated in Guantanamo Bay
Humans equated to dogs, are these amerikkans for real how the hell can they equate humans to dogs. these views are just shocking and any normal person would be disgusted with the so called civillised USA!
ak47 get off the horse, your making it sound as if America is so evil and these evils exist no where else, your not fooling anyone but yourself. This is not an excuse of justification for the abuse that American troops took part in but your idea that America is pure evil while your side of the world is far from such deeds is a joke.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
ak47 get off the horse, your making it sound as if America is so evil and these evils exist no where else, your not fooling anyone but yourself. This is not an excuse of justification for the abuse that American troops took part in but your idea that America is pure evil while your side of the world is far from such deeds is a joke.
[/QUOTE]
Why does anyone need to fool anyone American government is a complete joke, its been caught with its pants down and people like you are making excuses for abuse and torture by saying its ok because other countries are doing it what kind of logic is that!
You claim to be land of freedom well thats a lie, you claim to be country which is defender of human rights thats another lie, America claims to be liberating people thats another lie.
Take a look at your nations record on bombing countries, sanctioning and starving countries to death and to top that off torturing people because they are compared to dogs!
I just stated I wasn’t making an excuse for the abuse.
No one here has claimed America has a perfect record and it being run by humans it is prone to making mistakes. While you may like to think that America hasn’t brought advancement to Human Rights your mistaken and/or in denial. Saying the U.S. isn’t free doesn’t change the reality that it is. While thousands from across the world flock here for it’s freedoms and its opportunities you and your extreme far wing friends will be viewed as the man on the street who spends all his life screaming that 'the end of the world is coming', annoying at times but otherwise insignificant.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by underthedome: *
I just stated I wasn’t making an excuse for the abuse.
No one here has claimed America has a perfect record and it being run by humans it is prone to making mistakes. While you may like to think that America hasn’t brought advancement to Human Rights your mistaken and/or in denial. Saying the U.S. isn’t free doesn’t change the reality that it is. While thousands from across the world flock here for it’s freedoms and its opportunities you and your extreme far wing friends will be viewed as the man on the street who spends all his life screaming that 'the end of the world is coming', annoying at times but otherwise insignificant.
[/QUOTE]
America has labelled imprisoned iraqis as dogs and prisoners in guantanamo as dogs and all you can offer as a counter argument is to divert the topic onto how america is land of the free!
Sad and rather shallow but not surprising at all!