TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

most incest victims are young children. Do you think children get intentinoally drunk?
I bet a good # of rape victims who were drunk were drugged without their knowledge. A man whos too drunk wudn't be able to get it up to begin with.
A person who commits rape/incest is NEVER in his right mind to begin with, so that 99% is pointless...

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Btw, why stop gays from serving in the military? i dont' get what's the issue here? I don't think any of US are dying to serve in any military, if they want to go fight, whys it anyone's business?

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Thanks brother for the advice. I would inshAllah try more to submit to knowledge. Infact alot of times it is the reasoning and logics of my opponents which help me in honestly analysing by knowledge.

p.s. Btw, your answers of just

[quote]

Wrong
Wrong.
Wrong. I don't know what the actual statistics are, and I am sure alcohol is involved at some level, but your statistics are not authentic and statistically impossible.
[/quote]

didn't help me much in logically analysing my knowledge.So, kindly next time come up with some reasining and logics. Even if I know you are the best philosopher of my time, I wouldn't accept your answer of "wrong" without any reasoning :)

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

quite the contrary . human beings are predictable creatures that do act most of the time according to their nature. it is the ability to go against their nature that is a remarkable feat.

I think I failed badly in conveying my point here, due to my poor communication. Let me give you an example to explain what I intended to say.
No baby cat is taught by it's mother to fear the dog, but it is predesigned in it's mind to fear dog. Similarly no puppy is taught by the mother to attack cats.
No matter how hungry a lion, cat or a dog is, it won't eat grass because it has to follow it's nature.
Now when the human baby is nearly one year old, he puts everything that comes in his hand to his mouth. So, it needs to be taught what to eat and what not to eat.

I think the topic would be incomplete if the philosophical and a bit religious aspect is not considered.

Every child by nature is born good, but is influenced alot by his parents, environment and most importantly the choices he makes in his life. The stats says that every killer feel guilty and most of them cry after they kill for the first time in their life, because they did something against their nature. IT is their being persistant in doing that bad act which enables them to overcome their nature and feel normal about it. Then they might claim that they were born with this instict. <-------BUT Saying that would be blaming the creator, which is wrong. IF the creator makes people like that than He would never have cursed and punished the nation of Saint "looth" (However you pronounce it in english). Also at the day of judgement a homosexual person can easily say to the creator that don't punish me, it was not my fault, it was actually your fault that you created me like that. make sense ?

Animals and fish also do not socialize in the way humans do but for the sake of the argument...there do exist species that are homosexual in nature. many animals are also quite promiscuous...ironically a species most closest to man (speaking evolution-wise)

Sorry, I didn't get it. Which species are homosexual in nature. Any examples ?

Pardon me for being dubious but i have a hard time believing any gay person would give this as a reason for him choosing this lifestyle. so far the gay men and women i have seen argue in favor of their lifestyle have said something to the likes of them having no control over it. but i dont want to have a discussion on whether its learned or not...many have had this discussion and the conclusion remains that that there is no conclusion..yet..as to what extent sexual identity is learned versus biological.

As I said earlier, if it they are born with this nature and have no control over it, than it means in other words (ma'azAllah)"We should blame the creator for first creating them like that and than cursing and punishing them" The reason why I have mentioned the example of Saint Looth, is because the major religons in the world which consists of more than half the population of the world, believe in it.

Homosexual individuals have existed in every society in every time period. and hetero's have known this too. as far as i can see they are doing just fine as far as hetero reproduction is concerned. so i dont see how the system of reproduction would be disturbed.

I learned it from somewhere and am not sure about it.May be you are right and I am wrong regarding this point. But the truth remains hidden as we both have no authentic source to prove our point here.

if such things remain taboo there is a greater risk of having rise of diseases thanks to ignorance. e.g. the act of making prostitution illegal has never gotten rid of the worlds oldest profession...what it HAS done is in fact increased the violence that acompanies pimp-hood since the act is not regulated and the prostitute has no way of punishing the violators.

Here, again there are difference in opinion based on different research. Infact diseases like aids are more common in the countries where prostituion is legalised. Thus, We are not sure of the true way to stop it, so I would like to follow my beliefs as in my view, my Lord and the ways adopted by his Prophet (as) is the best way. Ofcourse this is not an enough reason for me to convince the non-believers but it seems that we have to stick to it, untill we find a research which is more clear and logical to everyone.

thats pedophilia. not homosexuality.

But they are inter related to each other. (talking about child abuse of boy done by men) I am talking from practical observation, though I might be wrong.

i guess you are trying to say that gays are made out of childhood sexual abuse. as i said before...alot of theories are offered but nothing conclusive. child abuse and the effects it has on the mind is a complicated issue and many factors come into play. so its hard for us to determine cause and effect like that.
but child abuse is equally committed by hetero-male/females and is not exclusive to homosexuals. i am sorry you and your friends were subject to this horrible crime and i understand your views better after learning of your experience

You are right, there are alot of theories and again we can't be sure of the truth. So it is up to us to follow whatever makes sense to us or our beliefs. And my belief says that the disease of child sexual abuse and homosexuality were inter related to each other in the nation which was destroyed by our Lord. Again I am only saying my beliefs, which ofcourse anyone else might disagree with.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

I heard it from Dr. Zakir Naik, who mentioned it on Peace TV and infront of thousands of people from different places, infact some of them from USA as well. He must have consulted from any source before mentioning it infront of people who would counter check it.
He also quoted an ayat of Quran calling alcohol to be "Um-ul-khubais" (mother of all evils) as it leads to many sins.

Allah knows best

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Sheeps - male ones (in urdu they are called mayendas)! They are always horny! At least we can say that they are homos rather bisex!

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Do you mean to say that male sheep perform sex with male sheep ? (I mean the complete procedure)

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Sorry, but they were pretty basic wrongs. Just pick the opposite of what you said and that knowledge is available in a few seconds with the magic of google.

Also such people have played the main role in child abuse in the society.
Is wrong statistically.

Such unnatural activities give rise to diseases which were not even known in the history
AIDS nor any other disease has been linked to homosexuality.

The reason for gays being not natural is that you won't find gays among any single type of animal, bird, fish or any other living things.
Homosexual behavior is found amongst other living things. Even if it weren't, humans have many unique characteristics. Humans are the only animals that kill for fun, make war, lies, gambles, rapes, drinks milk from another species, drinks milk past infancy, cries tears, laughs, has unique fingertips or can have sex over the phone. Not to mention all the spiritual aspects which are only reserved for humans.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Hmm...ok! in case my information is wrong on this issue, I would like to know your view regarding its religious aspect on the basis of whichever religon you follow. Are you a muslim ?

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

I think I failed badly in conveying my point here, due to my poor communication. Let me give you an example to explain what I intended to say.
No baby cat is taught by it's mother to fear the dog, but it is predesigned in it's mind to fear dog. Similarly no puppy is taught by the mother to attack cats. **
**No matter how hungry a lion, cat or a dog is, it won't eat grass because it has to follow it's nature.

Now when the human baby is nearly one year old, he puts everything that comes in his hand to his mouth. So, it needs to be taught what to eat and what not to eat.
I think the topic would be incomplete if the philosophical and a bit religious aspect is not considered.
Every child by nature is born good, but is influenced alot by his parents, environment and most importantly the choices he makes in his life. The stats says that every killer feel guilty and most of them cry after they kill for the first time in their life, because they did something against their nature. IT is their being persistant in doing that bad act which enables them to overcome their nature and feel normal about it. Then they might claim that they were born with this instict. <-------BUT Saying that would be blaming the creator, which is wrong. IF the creator makes people like that than He would never have cursed and punished the nation of Saint "looth" (However you pronounce it in english). Also at the day of judgement a homosexual person can easily say to the creator that don't punish me, it was not my fault, it was actually your fault that you created me like that. make sense ?

ok so now you are saying that gay people are gay because they have "learned" this from their parents. you are also saying they have learned a behavior that goes against "normal" human nature. you are also saying that since they have learned it there is no way they can blame God for creating them gay. correct so far?

the question is
if they have learned it from watching their parents...and obviously the parents learned it from watching their own parents...what was the beginning of this abberrant behavior? surely it must have stemmed from somewhere right? i mean since its only learned what is the original source of this "sin"?

the second question is how many people do you know that have an easy time going against everything that they learned as a child? isnt it again an unfair set-up for someone to have been born in a house where the people around him were homosexual? i mean this puts him in a situation where he is more prone to becoming a homosexual right? as opposed to someone who was brought up in a house where homosexuality was strictly shunned. again...the individual can rightly complain to God about this "unfair" scenario.

Sorry, I didn't get it. Which species are homosexual in nature. Any examples ?

bonobos monkeys, sheep and pigeons...have all shown homosexual tendencies.

** Thus, We are not sure of the true way to stop it, so I would like to follow my beliefs as in my view, my Lord and the ways adopted by his Prophet (as) is the best way. Ofcourse this is not an enough reason for me to convince the non-believers but it seems that we have to stick to it, untill we find a research which is more clear and logical to everyone.**

yes ofcourse its ok to stick by your beliefs as long as you recognize there are people in the world the "non-believers" as you named them...who might not share your views and as you said until there is clear and logical research in this area you need to tolerate their point of view as well.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

great... he does this AFTER i've already left the US like hitchkie suggested.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

If indeed Gays can enforce their notion of "community hood", to the extent of demanding state recognition and "rights", and shove such notions down our throats...the conservatives (of all stripes) have every damn right to take a forceful contrarian stance.

If one’s sexuality is nobody else’s business, then pray tell what is wrong with "don’t ask don’t tel"l? Sure, I’ll be fair…let’s make it balanced…no military person should ever discuss sexuality…period. Obviously, this isn’t the position most people gravitate to…so it seems obvious to me there’s an agenda…

Sorry, there's nothing "live and let live" about the political dimension of this...

In any case, this is yesterday's issue...European nations are now wondering weather they should remove legislation banning incest...LOL...it's amazing; this was the slippery slope predicted by the conservatives a while ago, often dismissed as absurdist smearing...it's nothing but the logical progression of this mode of thought.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Bonobo monkeys also use rape and sodomy as a punative measure...what do we make of the naturalist argument with reagrads to this?

The natural world is hardly a moral yardstick...and that applies to everyone on all sides of this debate...

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

A good question, and the answer is: the latter don't have as powerful a lobby, nor have they convinced the public of their "plight"...

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

right picoico, we shouldnt take our cues on sex from bonobo monkeys or praying mantises

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

thats what i said in the beginning...that we shouldnt use the animal kingdom as an argument for or against homosexuality. the argument was made first by SubmissionToPeace saying its wrong to be gay because animals dont do it.

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

ok so now you are saying that gay people are gay because they have "learned" this from their parents. you are also saying they have learned a behavior that goes against "normal" human nature. you are also saying that since they have learned it there is no way they can blame God for creating them gay. correct so far?

Yes, additionally alot of them even chose it for themselves. Some of them I know tried it due to curiosity and felt the devlish pleasure so started calling themselves gay.

Everything that is moraly wrong has a kind of temporary devlish pleasure in it, that is why people who try them become addicted to them. I would like to give here few examples.

  1. The taste of human blood is very good and any human being or animal who even taste human blood even once feels the devlish pleasure in it, so they become human predators.

  2. Similarly people having sex with family can also one day claim for rights and make it legalized. You see no boy can claim that he was naturally attracted to his mother or sister since he was born. It was either he changed the "Way" of looking at them. OR in childhood he had some experiences which gave him pleasure. That is why Islam doesn't allow a brother to sleep with his sister or with his own brother in one bed after they become 8 years old. Because even if two brothers or two sisters are sleeping together, in sleep they might experience devlish pleasure if their private parts are touched unconciously.

I have started to feel embarrassed by going into these details but this is what the topic demands for clarification. I appologise for that.

Biologically and sexually if "any" human tries to experience sex with the same gender, he would feel the devlish pleasure in it.

  1. The way things are going in this modern age, I am sure one day those people would also claim rights who have experienced sex with animal, and would say that they were born with such tendencies, because they also get devlish pleasure from such acts.

  2. Such things are rising from the societies where people are trying different immoral acts and every day they develop new tools and find out new immoral ways of finding temporary satisfactions.

the question is **
**if they have learned it from watching their parents...and obviously the parents learned it from watching their own parents...what was the beginning of this abberrant behavior? surely it must have stemmed from somewhere right? i mean since its only learned what is the original source of this "sin"?

You see, learning from parents might be one reason. I came to know about some people who tried it just for the sake of fun and realized and felt that devlish pleasure in it so they started calling themselves as gays. It is similar to people who try "heroine" and other drugs for the sake of trying once to know how it feels and than they become addicted to it as their body starts demanding the same pleasure.

the second question is how many people do you know that have an easy time going against everything that they learned as a child? isnt it again an unfair set-up for someone to have been born in a house where the people around him were homosexual? i mean this puts him in a situation where he is more prone to becoming a homosexual right? as opposed to someone who was brought up in a house where homosexuality was strictly shunned. again...the individual can rightly complain to God about this "unfair" scenario.

You see the ultimate Lord says that he does not put you in situation beyond your control. So if a person is born in such a society he might realize it at one stage (due to inner voice) that it is wrong. Three persons whom I trusted tried to develop this relationship with me in a very polite and caring way when I was 11 and 12 years old. I didn't know what homosexual is but my immediate response was from inside that it is not right. Similar was the response of the other colleague I knew, but he some how wanted to feel the devlish pleasure again so he continued inspite of agreeing that it is wrong.

After being born in a wrong environment we do realize at one stage anything that is morally wrong but it depends upon us to either follow the devlish desires of lust or to search for the truth honestly.

bonobos monkeys, sheep and pigeons...have all shown homosexual tendencies.

I would try to confirm that.

yes ofcourse its ok to stick by your beliefs as long as you recognize there are people in the world the "non-believers" as you named them...who might not share your views and as you said until there is clear and logical research in this area you need to tolerate their point of view as well.

Yes, I would respect them but I can't call them right, similarly I can't call incest sex and sex with animals to be right. But I would definately take action if they encourage anyone else towards these devlish actions

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.


No I'm not, but I believe in God and that a person's orientation is irrelevant to Him.

[quote]
Yes, I would respect them but I can't call them right, similarly I can't call incest sex and sex with animals to be right. But I would definately take action if they encourage anyone else towards these devlish actions
[/quote]
Just as those who believe your desire to impose your views against homosexuality on society will take action to prevent anyone from encouraging your intolerant views.

But please do get a little more informed when making blanket statements. An imam stouting statistics in front of thousands of people doesn't necessarily make it right.

Homosexuality has been around since the dawn of civiliaztion, and used to be very prominent (even in some Muslim socieities). It isn't some invention by a new moral-less group. Studies have shown that children raised in gay households are no more likely to be gay than other children.

But first you must get passed the notoin that homosexuality is a learned trait. It is not.

Brownback supports Pace's remark on gays

You can see just by looking at his face that he's a prudish, narrow-minded, hateful, stressed out bigot. He has that look about him, looks like he is the type of person who is so hateful that if he came across somebody different he would start choking on his own breath out of anger..

Re: TOP US GENERAL RIGHTLY CALLS GAY ACTS IMMORAL.

Those of you that are supporting this general, bare in mind that xenophobic people like him probably hate you Pakis and Muslims and want to bomb you to smithereens far more than they do gays.