Re: Too much Matam ?
People people! lets not argue over this. We have differences, thats why some of us are sunnis, and some shias. Be patient, in the end, everyone will know for sure if they were on the right path or not. But unfortunately at that time it would be too late to do anything about it.... and oh yeah, one more thing.... there isn't going to be another prophet sent by God to set our paths straight. :D Exciting, isn't it? Can't wait for the results!
Re: Too much Matam ?
Hmm.... yeah lets forget about everything else, since we live in the US, lets obey the consitution first and foremost.
Re: Too much Matam ?
I am sorry if I offend somebody, thats not the intent.
im not sure about your friend, but in Lebanon its the norm to do qama zani in muharram (sword on the head) so if hes not aware of maatam, then i think thats prolly either due to his lack of awareness or due to the fact that they dont do that particular style of maatam.
having said that, the process does vary from place to place, they have the zuljinah and alam in pakistan, in iran and iraq they'll put on a theatre production, and do not allow qama zani etc. so it does depends on where you were are, but the essence is based on matam, nauha and majalises..
Infact in trinidad, its become a mainstream carnival, where every ashura, trinidadians from all faiths and background take out processions, beat drums and taboots. Its called the carnival of Hosay, and originated from the indians muslims that settled there in the 18th century, and if you ask them what its about they'll say they're remembering the death of the Prophet's Grandson.
Smiliarly in India, Iraq, UK and other places, people of non shia background take part religiously for thier own reasons.
Re: Too much Matam ?
Karbala, yes I can understand. But shias have it for every imam, whether or not any other event is associated with them all year.
When we give basis for matam we cite bibi zainab arranging majalis for imam hussain, but were there any majalis for imam ali, or even imam hasan?
baseless would be without basis derived from either Quran or Sunnah (including that of imams). whether or not something brings you closer or further away from Islam is a subjective assesment, it doesnt further your argument.
The whole purpose of a majalises is not to cry your eyes out, but is a community gathering to educate and inform, and a great opportunity for self refelction and development. And even the most tradtional of majlises will to a greater or lesser degree incorporate aspects of tawhid, usool and furoo'.
Any majlis, at any time of the year, is a sunnah of the Prophet and the Aimmah (as) and crying or maatam in these majlises is not a requirement by any standards. Heck, just sitting in a gathering reading salwat is a great source of sawaab, so to try an minmise the effect or importance of the role of these majalises in the light of Islam IMO, reflects more negatively on yourself than anything else.
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Lots of differences. No children killed, no people deprived of food and water for days, no women and children captured and paraded through streets, no chadars being snatched, no killing of an entire household before their eyes etc etc.
It is a common answer for when the question of why have matam over karbala when being a shaheed is a high honour to say that we mourn for all the above and not the actual shahadat.
after all if circumstances werent what they were and all of what happened afterwards hadnt happened then there would be no cause to mourn the death of a warrior?
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Exactly. Circumstances of the death is the reason why we mourn. But i think you should read up on the lives of the rest of the Imams, because not one of them died a natural death. Most were imprisoned or under house arrest for nearly all their lives, all bar one were murdered. Hence why someone would acknowledge the dire circumstances of one of the imams and ignore the circumstances of the rest is a tad contradictory IMO.
Re: Too much Matam ?
The purpose of majalis is to mourn, the rest is a benefit of the first. as you know a significant chunk of the majalis post ashura within safar do not have zikr, they have only marsiya (which is usually lamentory, usually). you cannot say that such majalis do not meet their purpose.
Do you mean to say then that shias could just as well replace all majalis with meelads?
First off you assume I am unfamiliar with the lives of the imams, and that I havent been to such majalis.
Can you tell me, if majalis concerning imams other than imam hussain is a Sunnah then why is the first recorded majlis that we always cite is that of Bibi Zainab? Why were there no annual majalis after the deaths of Imams Ali and Hasan, initiated by Imam Hasan or Imam Hussain?
Secondly do you agree with my observation that for a lot of other imams, who did not die under as tragic circumstances as Imam Hussain, the mourning is often “padded” with lots of tying in with Karbala associated events? Can you tell me why?
See it is not a tragedy to have to struggle for your faith. When you start mourning house arrests and death by poisoning for centuries you are drawing parallels between the tragedies we mourn and the tragedies that occur every day in life. A lot of people spend horribly isolated lives, a lot of people get poisoned for even less worthy reasons than Allah. Karbala does not happen that frequently.
The Prophet’s uncle was martyred in Badar and we know the extent of his sadness at that event. Yet can you tell me if he mourned for him more than a year, and that too publicly? If any death in the way of Allah is tragic then shouldnt we mourn a lot more?
Re: Too much Matam ?
sword on the head...dyamnnnnnn man...
Re: Too much Matam ?
^^ That would only happen if Kashmala tariq were in Code red's arms...:D
On a serious note. I have always admired shias for their intense love for HAzrat Ali (R.A) but beating yourself, just coz he was
1) MArtyred
2) We all know he (R.A) is in the heavens
Just doesnt make sense. I've had several shias in my family & as school friends, but I've always been taught to love them as brothers & not hate them. But I've still been reluctant to argue with them on these points, coz I dont want to offend them, because I'm not, they just get too over emotionally hyped up over a mere question.
I am just waiting for the day, when Imam Mahdi & HAzrat Isa (R.A) will show the way & I hope its sooner, coz this world is a big mess.
Re: Too much Matam ?
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What about Hazrath Hamza, what about Hazrath Usman whose head was cut off whilst reading Quran precisely surah Baqarah :238
never happened ...he was stabbed to death
Re: Too much Matam ?
there is no question that iranians have inflenced shias since the 16th century
but Matam was a practice that started with the Tawwabun right after karbala who were purely arabic ,....iranians were predominantly sunnis until safavids
Re: Too much Matam ?
I think the two are like comparing apple to oranges. but was wondering, what makes you think kerbala was different to the death of other Imams?
why are not the martyrs of Jamal siffin and ayn alwarda etc mourned by the shias ?
Re: Too much Matam ?
..
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Infact in trinidad, its become a mainstream carnival, where every ashura, trinidadians from all faiths and background take out processions, beat drums and taboots. Its called the carnival of Hosay, and originated from the indians muslims that settled there in the 18th century, and if you ask them what its about they'll say they're remembering the death of the Prophet's Grandson.
Smiliarly in India, Iraq, UK and other places, people of non shia background take part religiously for thier own reasons.
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I hope that you agree that it is tragic that nonmuslims are allowed to partcipate in these processions and what is your view on "hussaini brahmins"?
what sorrow they can express at the death of Prophet's grandson when they believe neither in the oneness of Allah nor in the finality of Prophethood
Re: Too much Matam ?
listen we can all turn red and then blue trying to justify where Matam comes from...everyone has thier hadith's to validate thie claims. What i dont understand is why this is such a big issue. If some people for cultural or religious reasons feel the need to commemorate certain person in our history moe so then others i dont understand what the big deal is!
there are other practices that other sects have ..some ppl have peers (u know those pirs... i dont know how to spell this...but those very spiritual leaders in paksitan ..u know the ones over whose graves ppl still go and pray, they are not historical figures, i mean i suppose some are...but not all... but anyway ppl belive in that) some ppl in Afric circumsize women when they get married...they consider it a religious practice...kinda like when we circumsize boys when they are born!Then there is Qadian's or Agha Khani's or ppl who are part of the nation of islam..some of us are so opposed to them we dont even consider them muslim...and what of Sunni's and thier tarabi (taravi) pardon my spelling, but thats another practice that makes no sense. All i am saying is we could all take odds with each others religious celebrations. My point of view is..you are not gonna convince anyone to stop doing it.
I do owever take odds with the circumcising (FGM) of women in African tribes/ villages, and I think matam with blades etc is also extreme. But hey if ppl are allowed to pierce themselves all over, tatoo thier face etc, then i guess its okay if ppl want to hit themselves with blades as well. Though I still think that children should not be allowed to see it or partake in it or encrouraged to do it until they are 18.
The good thing is that we sorta on our way to end some of the more extreme practices which contravene human rigths, and are not really considered a part of islam, sometimes even by the followers of the sect practising that things.
These practices are being criticized by the very ppl that practice them. For instance, muslim clerics went down to africa to speak with these tribes about FGM - practiced against women. I think thats very good. Additionally Muslim clerics etc are working with UN human rigths groups on educating ppl about how the practice infat contradicts Islam. As for Matam with blades...some shia clerics have i think given "fatwas" or certainly have come out against using blades etc to do matam, and others are tolerant of it ..but i dont think any encourage it..certainly not the ones that are somewhat high up in the chain of religious authority. So its now not a very encouraged but a rather a "tolerated" practice. Infact shia mosques now have blood drives the same day as Matam to encourage ppl to give blood instead, some do not allow for such practices in thier quaters but are usually forced to concede to the more emotional patrons.
I thin kthe more we realize that islam doesn't encourage suffering, and that suffering more does not make you more religious or closer to God, the more we are able to be objective and see our religion clearly and not base our opinions on emotion alone.
Re: Too much Matam ?
i think the thread has diverted from a discussion about mourning aside from Karbala to mourning/matam in general.
Re: Too much Matam ?
farwah
I understand your point, but the discussion is to understand and not try and prove or disprove anyone. One can still seek knowledge, whether or not one agrees with any specific thought or action.
I dont care if someone does matam with chains or daggers or swords.
Re: Too much Matam ?
Thanks to those who understood the topic, and participated 
But sadly one does not need to be sherlock holmes in oder to understand that this thread is notabout the validity of matam, or lack of it… Infact it is about general impact of excessive matam on our lives and society.
I request moderators to remove off topic post. Those who want to discuss any other topic, please open a thread. thanks 
Re: Too much Matam ?
Now before comming back to the topic let me tell you something.
In my childhood and many others of my age group, we read and learned about important islamic personalities and event through short stories written in our elementary Islamiat and urdu. The very first impression of Hazrat Ali (ra) that we got, was of a hero. A brave and loveable companion of Holy prophet. The person who stood by him from his early teenage … the Brave youngster who had put his life in danger when he stayed back during hijrat. The Fierce Soldier in battles and conquerer of Khyber. His famous words meri maa ne mera naam haider rakha hia ( my mother named me lion… rest i forgot ) And then at the time of masawaat, holy prophet’s assurance to him that you will be my brother here and hereafter…
So in short he was a brave, kind and loveable character who had utmost devotion to prophet :saw: Same way his later life was full of wisdom and character.
^ this is a frank and honest account. Now I dont know how shia kids see him/ know him from their childhood.
Having this image of a personality, and knowing that he led a wonderful and meaning ful life and then he got shahadat while he was praying … and then thought of doing ‘matam’ for such a personality is very demeaning IMO.
Matam has a negative conotation. Doing ‘matam’ for a hero is like insulting him. Because if he lived like a hero and died like a hero , why should i do matam for ?
Should i do matam for Rashid Minhas Shaheed ? No never !
Should i Do Matam for Raja Aziz bhatti shaheed ?
Should I do matam for Ghazi ilam din shaheed ?
The simple answer is that we should and we must remember them, learn from their heroics, but their is no reason that we should mourn them !
This discussion is not particulary about events of karbala. I know , and we all know that there were many other dimension other than shahadat …in chronology. So we are not discussing them right now.
Re: Too much Matam ?
Matam has a negative conotation. Doing 'matam' for a hero is like insulting him. Because if he lived like a hero and died like a hero , why should i do matam for ?
Should i do matam for Rashid Minhas Shaheed ? No never ! Should i Do Matam for Raja Aziz bhatti shaheed ? Should I do matam for Ghazi ilam din shaheed ?
The simple answer is that we should and we must remember them, learn from their heroics, but their is no reason that we should mourn them !
A good point indeed.
Re: Too much Matam ?
Never seen a Matam for Alama Arif Hussaini also,
Re: Too much Matam ?
Codey if there is one thing that I would love to say, its this that I love you for such a nice read. You have logically explained a scenario, asked a valid question & answered it. All of this in a dimension. I love the status of Hazrat Ali (R.A) and others, but the way he fought, he had a special sword...of all the things in this world, he (R.A) even got a sword to fight from Allah subhan wa tallah, inclusive of such a divine & strong name.
Re: Too much Matam ?
To begin with, stop comparing the martyrdom of Imam Hussain a.s. with the martyrdom of Rashid Minhas. The Imam sacrificied his life for Islam, not for his country.
The Majalis are held to commemorate the sacrifice of Imam Hussain a.s. To educate them and remind them of his act of abnegation. The majalis are of course poignant and would cause any listeners to feel at least sad. Undoubtedly some would cry uncontrollably. Crying is natural and i believe there are no restrictions on crying.
Then comes Mataam. The act of beating your chest. Some see that utterly contracting to Islam. However, mataam, is not a part of religion. Nor was the act of the companion hazrat Awais r.a. He smashed all of his teeth and that had to hurt. why would he do that? I dont recall any other companion of the sahabi engaging in such a "self mutilating" act. Since others havent have done that should I discount his act? Obviously no. Also he only did it for the Prophet(saw), not any other. Sure there were other who laid there lives for Islam and haz Awais r.a. would have been aware of them. But he confined his act of "love" to the Prophet(saw). Now should we infer from this that he did not acknowledge other martyrs?
When shias do mataam, exclusively for the Ahle Bayt, it does not mean they do not revere other martyrs such haz Hamza r.a. Shias revere, as the most worthy of respect. They are the paragon of virtue, piety and rectitude. Same way haz Awais r.a. saw the Prophet(saw) as the most worthy of his "act".