Few weeks ago I read a poster inviting people at majlis and Matam at the death aniversary of Hazrat Ali (ra). I was told by a friend when i mentioned the main procession Tazia and zuljinah in moharam from Nisar Haweli that the people are so jampacked there… I was wondering how they breathe and dont faint in so packed crowed ? He said that procession of Imam Hasan’s (ra) ‘taboot’ (coffin) from same area is even more jam packed so much so that a person would be lifted off the ground by sheer force and push of crowed
I was like WoW
Ok, Karbala I understand. whether i agree or disagree is different. But I dont understand why people need to do so much matam at Hazrat Ali’s and Hazrat Imam Hasan’s Shahadat ?
Why feel sorry for oneself and extend negative outlook on life ? Why not cherish the greatness of these people in a more positive way. Cherish the wisdom and spritual intellect, their teaching and spread their message in more befitting maner.
It was fairly late at night and so my 6 yr old was asleep on the floor. And when one of the janazaa was brought out...suddenly there was a scramble and women all around me started to follow it around...One of them kicked my sleeping child on the floor because she was in the way. Nobody informed us that this part of the seating area would suddenly become a path. I am still shaking as I type this ..... after nearly 3 years!!!
I am all for whatever rituals or traditions people would like to follow....but I thought why mourn the dead when you cannot respect a living child!!!! I don't think that the Imam's family they were mourning would have looked down too kindly on this sort of action. This is not what they taught us!
First of all, the 12 Imams and Ahlul Bayt are NOT dead. please, have a bit of respect. They are shahyd as the fought and were martyred in the way of Islam. Crying and mourning for them is essential to keep our faith intact. They were infallibles and were descendents of our beloved Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (PBUH).
Carrying out Matam is a form of remembering our Imams, what they went through to keep the religion of Islam alive today. If it wasn't for their efforts and how they lived their lives, you and me wouldn't be here today. They are so close to us, even closer than our own immediate family members. Wouldn't you mourn your family's death?
Well, I think I may cite the wordings of non other than the Prophet of Islam [as] in this regards when He [s] was asked same kinda question while He [s] was weeping severely over the shahadat of Hadrath Jafar Tayyar.
Allamah Ibn Katheer writes in his authority work al Bidayah wa al Nihaya, Volume 4, page 673, published by Nafees Academy Karachi:
Ibn Ishaq narrates that on the day when Hadhrat Jafar ibn Abi Talib was martyred in Ghazwa-e-Moutah; Holy Prophet (s) called upon Hadhrat Abdullah bin Jafar and made him sit on his lap and started kissing his forehead and eyes, while tears were flowing from his own Holy eyes.
The Sahaba inquired: “O Prophet of Allah! Is it so that some grieving news has come about Jafar that has made your tears flow?”
The Holy Prophet (s) replied: “Yes, Today Jafar has been martyred there, but the troubles and the plight that he went through before being martyred is very grieving.”
And as for your notion that why not to spread their message, then doing matam doesnt mean that no one cares aboyt their message rather the majlis take place just before matam, that is indeed one of the sources of spreading the message of Ahlulbayt [as].
^ and then the holy prophet (saw) or even the immediate family of jaafar (ra), his wife and children, carried on maatam for him every year on the day of his death????
It was fairly late at night and so my 6 yr old was asleep on the floor. And when one of the janazaa was brought out...suddenly there was a scramble and women all around me started to follow it around...One of them kicked my sleeping child on the floor because she was in the way. Nobody informed us that this part of the seating area would suddenly become a path. I am still shaking as I type this ..... after nearly 3 years!!!
I am all for whatever rituals or traditions people would like to follow....but I thought why mourn the dead when you cannot respect a living child!!!! I don't think that the Imam's family they were mourning would have looked down too kindly on this sort of action. This is not what they taught us!
I am still shaking at this!
First of all why you went there if you are not belong to shia religion at top of that you took with your six year old child whew!!!! one thing you should remember for sure that always avoid crowd if you headed out some where with kids I don’t know you went to Hajj or not ask someone who already been to Hajj how to handle that situation. Pounding & pushing during Tawaff and Ramey for kids and elderly folks unbearable
I don’t want to involve in this debate because I respect every religion If Matam is allowed in Shia religion then let them do it.
Hazrath Hamza, Hazrath Umer, Hazrath Uthman, radiAllaahuanhom. Well that would be a great idea.
How About Matam for the first shahids of Islam thats Yasir and wife, Parents of Hazrath Amr radiAllaah anhu.
Well, anymore to list just tell me we will make a list of allthe Sahaba Karam and each day of the year we will do Matam.
Well, not offending anyone was this a established Hadith, if any of the Imams performed this act, would be respected from the Shiites sources.
Anyways till then I seek sorry to Allaah and astagfirullaah.
I dont understand what a buncha ppl beating themselves with chains or cutting themselves open with daggers has to do with the religion that the prophet preached.
I am not stopping anyone from dooing it in any way or to try and justify it to me as I have had the discussions with my shia friends since highschool days. It just still does not make sense to me.
I am not asking for any justification. You may do your matam to your heart content, no one can stop you. You may do it for 365 days of the year :k:
I want you to come out of your shell and explain to me that
How does this excessive matam (sorrow, sadness, grief ) positively impact your life and society in general ?
For example, If I you were working for an NGO in earthquake devastated area Would you organise an event on the 8th of every month and gather children, elders and ask them to do matam for their loved one ? and remember the time when earthquake struck. Would you read the poems describing the gory details of destruction and misery of children and people who lost their loved ones ?
Excuse me kindly...where have i said i am not shia? Or that I am?
I have no problem with any faith remembering their departed (if not dead) people. To the contrary, I am all for it. The talks they give during the muharram days are very inspiring....but what follows is off-putting.
And as for haj...yes pushing and pounding is unbearable...why is it like that...have we not then lost the meaning of visiting God's house?
BTW this happens in many pilgrimages nt simply in Islam...so not bashing any religious beliefs here...just the fervour!
Yes I agree with you to commemorate the death or the martyrdom is essential to strengthen your remmeberance. What i am questioning is why some lose their mind over it? IF someone was to convince me about the martyrdom of Imam Hussain and his family....a story about his virtues and the message and knowledge he left would be more effective than this. But those who wish to express their emotions are free to do so. But the thing is straight after the time alloted for crying etc...people sit down for dinner like nothing happened? I find it so difficult to come to terms with! So live your whole life with the message that was intended for you...carry it in your heart always and not simply for the public for the designated days. You will be a better representative of your Imams if you do that...in my most humble opinion with utmost respect for you.
I totally agree to what u have mentioned about the mourning / remembering Ahlul Bayt during specific days of the year. But let me give u an example, we as muslims pray 5 times a day... during these times we dedicate ourselves completely to Allah forgetting about all worldly affairs. Once we are finished, we go back to our usual routines whatever they maybe whether you are a moderate muslim or a religious muslim. Isn't this similar to what you have described above? We cannot spend our whole lives slashing ourselves, yes our Imams are always in our hearts and minds and as the statement goes "Every day is Ashura and every land is Karbala" but when it is the appropriate time of year we will carry out our matams and mourning for our Imams who fought against the enemies of Islam to keep it alive for ppl like us today.
Ok, Karbala I understand. whether i agree or disagree is different. But I dont understand why people need to do so much matam at Hazrat Ali's and Hazrat Imam Hasan's Shahadat ?
Why feel sorry for oneself and extend negative outlook on life ? Why not cherish the greatness of these people in a more positive way. Cherish the wisdom and spritual intellect, their teaching and spread their message in more befitting maner.
Perhaps not to the extent of muharram or ashura, but whereever there is a significant shia community, there is always a majlis and maatam held, not just for Imam Hassan and Imam Ali (as), but for every Imam's death anniversary and aswell as a milaad event on thier birthday, where everyone dresses up and attends a function and dinner at the mosque etc.
The point of these majalises is like you said, to remember the greatness and the wisdom of these people. In a traditional majalis, first comes the fazail of these people, then the masail and the masaib at the end. After that its, nauhas, matam (at a shahadat), ziyarat, dua and dinner. So rememberance of the imams does not emcompasse just the maatam, but a whole range of things that are brought together on that night.
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For example, If I you were working for an NGO in earthquake devastated area Would you organise an event on the 8th of every month and gather children, elders and ask them to do matam for their loved one ? and remember the time when earthquake struck. Would you read the poems describing the gory details of destruction and misery of children and people who lost their loved ones?
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yes, thats perfectly normal for most. Folks hold khatams when a relative passes away, and khatam e Quran or sura yaseen is held on every death anniversary, so if people want to remember, cry and do maatam on those days, its perfectly natural IMO.
simliarly in the UK, they have events like war memorials, rememberance day (which is being held today), the holocaust, where they recite sad poems, relate sad (and gory) events and watch films that relate back to that time and age etc...so that those victims or soldiers are not forgotten to this day, and theres nowt wrong that as its pretty much the norm.
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How does this excessive matam (sorrow, sadness, grief ) positively impact your life and society in general ?
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If you'd ask me that question, prolly a few years ago, i can honestly say I wouldnt have been able to tell you. As a kid, it was an important ritual that symbolised mourning of our great Imams. How it benefited everyone in their wider lives, i wouldn't have a clue, nor was it something i thought much about either.
However ask me now and i can tell you that just like milaads, eid, ramadhan, muharram it has a positive effect on the whole community, its an event that brings the whole community together and most of all it is a humbling and refreshing experience.
its ironic however, you are asking shia folks of all people, why they are sorrowful on these sepecifc events, a community that cries its eyes out every thursday night reading dua kumail, its really a not a question they could easily fathom.
To them sorrow is not about feeling sorry for oneself, but rather is a selfless act, hence the more you cry the better!
Infact, even if you are not crying over the masaib in the majlis, or the the dua in dua kumail, it is highly encouraged that you remember and weep over any daily problems you're facing in life.
The scientific benefit for this is that emotional crying naturally release toxin that gather up and are rarely released in our day to day lives.
And with that, any tension and pain that we subconciously gather, are released from your system in a carefree atmosphere, and you often come out of it feeling refreshed and re-invigorated.
You can call it mass therapy sessions or the likes, but once you remove the stigma that comes with crying in public, and actively take part, it is very therapeutic and beneficial altogether.
I understand that unless you grew up with it, its prolly hard to grasp how you can switch from back and forth so easily. You forget however that you cannot and are not involved at the same level as a person who has suffered from the death of a loved one.
Hence you do not go through the long lasting emotional and mental turmoil, that a person would normally suffer. Its more akin to feeling teary or emotional after reading about or hearing a really sad event of someone in the past...you feel sad for a period and then move on.
As for matam, it is considered as following the foot steps of bibi zainab (as), and also throughout time has become a major symbolism of not only mourning but of the shia identity itself. Although, its not compulsory to do, but to listen to nohas/poems that are read along side maatam, is highly reccomended.
and zanjeer zani, although looked down upon and discouraged by most shia scholars as an extreme form of matam, it has been practiced by a small minority for centuries, so ineffect has also become part and parcel of the whole thing...
From one aspect, it is often looked upon in the community as an act of great bravado and great level of faith, as its something that not many have the courage to do... other folks in the community, however, waver between morbid bemusement and disgust...but so long as these folks are doing it to themselves, and abiding by the set conditions laid down, its not really a huge issue.
Although i have to say, for some it maybe a case of putting on a show of bravado, however there are others with good level of understanding, and for these zanjeer zani may be a case of genuine emotional experience. And you can generally tell these folks apart.
There are also other well documented facts in recent history that are evident to the collective force and advantages of muharram, matam and majalises in the shia community. but i will leave that for another time and day inshallah.
Meray bhai asking this question is not even worth the strength applied to keyboard while typing. I suggest you drop it and just read the things written here before things escalate.
PS. now I know exactly why my posts were so prejudiciously being removed.
guys, Code Red has asked a valid question aimed at shias as a whole, if you dont understand, then the best way for you guys is take a back seat, read their point of views and seek to understand, as opposed to getting confrontational.
It really doesnt matter whether we agree or not, the bottom line is you understand the whys and hows behind it. The aim should be to educate ourselves from another point of view rather than bicker about it..
I totally agree to what u have mentioned about the mourning / remembering Ahlul Bayt during specific days of the year. But let me give u an example, we as muslims pray 5 times a day... during these times we dedicate ourselves completely to Allah forgetting about all worldly affairs. Once we are finished, we go back to our usual routines whatever they maybe whether you are a moderate muslim or a religious muslim. Isn't this similar to what you have described above? We cannot spend our whole lives slashing ourselves, yes our Imams are always in our hearts and minds and as the statement goes "Every day is Ashura and every land is Karbala" but when it is the appropriate time of year we will carry out our matams and mourning for our Imams who fought against the enemies of Islam to keep it alive for ppl like us today.
You know I think we are on same wave length but cant seem to see it. Please carry on with matam...I have absolutely no problem with that. What I have a problem with is that this act of carrying out your tradition was done by causing disrespect to someone. If you want to slash yourself...its ok with me but dont slash others. A better act would be to perhaps donate blood. When u slash yourself blood is wasted.
