To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims...

[Southie]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Good. But it is not about any elected Govt.

So there is no need for every Muslim or Pakistani to feel ashamed of, apologetic of, “owning up to”, (AND SEEN AS RESPONSIBLE FOR) any act which is committed by terrorists/Criminals regardless how much they claim to be “Muslims”.

Ok. I will give you that.

I think both you and those critical of the terror groups are 95 pct in agreement. The 5 pct difference is mostly in semantics.

PS. what do I have to do to get you to like my post?

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@Southie

Ok. I will give you that.

I think both you and those critical of the terror groups are 95 pct in agreement. The 5 pct difference is mostly in semantics.

PS. what do I have to do to get you to like my post?

Who told you I am not among those who are critical of terror groups?

And you ask me to like your post?

[Southie]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Who told you I am not among those who are critical of terror groups?

And you ask me to like your post?

Ok. Just when I thought you are become kinder and gentler…

My post clearly states BOTH you and others are critical of the terror groups. And that you guys are simply quibbling over semantics.

Now like my post. And the earlier one.

[psyah]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

Inclusive speech

The speech used to include others to the “we” and “us” is done for two reasons:

1. To influence the ones being spoken about
2. Literal allusion

Exclusive speech

The act of saying “them” or “they” is done also for the following reason.

3. To separate and become distinct from a people who cannot be influenced

When people commit a crime they are given a label. That label becomes commonplace - either we disagree with that label or accept it. Some people would not like to be associated with such people who have done the crimes and you get a manifestation of 3) happening. This divides people across ideological lines. It is done to preserve the interests of the non-criminals, but at the peril of the people falling in to divisions.

Others accept the media rhetoric and start an internal reproofing and sifting process. This is perceived by those who exercise 3) as taking blame. However, it is more effective to assume the “we” and “us” position to influence and correct others. The moment you separate from others it legitimises them in their difference. The media purposefully appoints such labels to ISIS as being Islamic so the Muslim community gets back-footed. The fact is we should say although we consider them Muslims who need to be corrected, they perceived the rest of the Muslims who disagree with them as infidels.

ISIS become a they not because we disown them, but because they disown us. Until that point with any entity we should keep the ummah as united as possible and remove stray ideologies as an internal matter.

There is a time and place to use the word “us” and that is when our influence over the fringe elements is high and when they still consider the body as an authority over them. If they no longer consider that authority or collective then we cannot continue blaming ourselves since that will have the effect of us - agreeing or accepting their fringe activities.

Think of ISIS like a cousin that has gone violently mad. He is still our cousin but he needs to be dealt with, we would rather do it than let others in to do it. So it is all about whether we can do it or not. If we are helpless then it is better to call them a “them” - in order to save the body … Better to severe a finger with gangrene than let it infect the whole arm.

So I disagree that calling bad elements “us” or “them” is necessarily right or wrong - but we should choose our words wisely for the best overall effect to the ummah - veering towards keeping it one collective as much as possible.

[Reha]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

You can embrace ISIS type of people in your version of Islam. Fine with me. I already said that if you had cared to read.

Please learn the criteria of who is Muslim yourself. I cannot spoon-feed you. The thread is/was not even about that.

People who feel they can dictate who is Muslim and who is not ARE on the same level as ISIS and all the rest of the terrorists out there. In your version of Islam, its okay to walk around and pretend to be Allah swt and that’s fine with me.

But you have no right to do so and that’s that.

As far as who’s side I am on…my side is the common sense side. Your’s might be more of the militant extremist type though.

One basic thing most Muslims lack is simply minding their own business.

[queer]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Paid moles

name and shame these paid moles, diwana behn.

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@Southie

Ok. Just when I thought you are become kinder and gentler…

My post clearly states BOTH you and others are critical of the terror groups. And that you guys are simply quibbling over semantics.

Now like my post. And the earlier one.

So disagreeing with you and showing it.. means I am not mild and gentle in a whole lot of ways? Surely, you do sound self centric.

Your post meant to separate me from those who criticize terror group by putting “and” in between, which I disagreed.

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@psyah

Inclusive speech

The speech used to include others to the “we” and “us” is done for two reasons:

1. To influence the ones being spoken about
2. Literal allusion

Exclusive speech

The act of saying “them” or “they” is done also for the following reason.

3. To separate and become distinct from a people who cannot be influenced

When people commit a crime they are given a label. That label becomes commonplace - either we disagree with that label or accept it. Some people would not like to be associated with such people who have done the crimes and you get a manifestation of 3) happening. This divides people across ideological lines. It is done to preserve the interests of the non-criminals, but** at the peril of the people falling in to divisions.**

Others accept the media rhetoric and start an internal reproofing and sifting process. This is perceived by those who exercise 3) as taking blame. However, it is more effective to assume the “we” and “us” position to influence and correct others. The moment you separate from others it legitimises them in their difference. The media purposefully appoints such labels to ISIS as being Islamic so the Muslim community gets back-footed. The fact is **we should say although we consider them Muslims **who need to be corrected, **they perceived the rest of the Muslims who disagree with them as infidels. **

ISIS become a they not because we disown them, but because they disown us. Until that point with any entity we should keep the ummah as united as possible and remove stray ideologies as an internal matter.

There is a time and place to use the word “us” and that is when our influence over the fringe elements is high and when they still consider the body as an authority over them. If they no longer consider that authority or collective then we cannot continue blaming ourselves since that will have the effect of us - agreeing or accepting their fringe activities.

Think of ISIS like a cousin that has gone violently mad. He is still our cousin but he needs to be dealt with, we would rather do it than let others in to do it. So it is all about whether we can do it or not. If we are helpless then it is better to call them a “them” - in order to save the body … Better to severe a finger with gangrene than let it infect the whole arm.

So I disagree that calling bad elements “us” or “them” is necessarily right or wrong - but we should choose our words wisely for the best overall effect to the ummah - veering towards keeping it one collective as much as possible.

Disagreed at many levels. Sorry.

Muslims have nothing to do with terrorists.

They are neither cousins of Muslims nor friends, etc.

Period.

If you feel they maybe somehow related to you for any reason they claim it and say it like it is.

**No one gives you the right to create and spread any confusion you might have,.. by including criminals in to large majority Muslims…who do not subscribe to, act upon and even condemn those criminals.

Please do not degrade large majority Muslims living peacefully in this world by creating confusion by words.

Please and thank you.

**Who needs foes when so called friends are like that..

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@Reha

People who feel they can dictate who is Muslim and who is not ARE on the same level as ISIS and all the rest of the terrorists out there. In your version of Islam, its okay to walk around and pretend to be Allah swt and that’s fine with me.

But you have no right to do so and that’s that.

As far as who’s side I am on…my side is the common sense side. Your’s might be more of the militant extremist type though.

One basic thing most Muslims lack is simply minding their own business.

Please read all my previous posts three times, memorize them, understand them.. before responding to me. It is very difficult to answer you when you have not even done your homework by reading my earlier posts and start throwing silly accusations. Thank you.

[psyah]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Disagreed at many levels. Sorry.

Muslims have nothing to do with terrorists.

They are neither cousins of Muslims nor friends, etc.

Period.

If you feel they maybe somehow related to you for any reason they claim it and say it like it is.

**No one gives you the right to create and spread any confusion you might have,.. by including criminals in to large majority Muslims…who do not subscribe to, act upon and even condemn those criminals.

Please do not degrade large majority Muslims living peacefully in this world by creating confusion by words.

Please and thank you.

**Who needs foes when so called friends are like that..

but this agrees with my stance …

[Reha]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Please read all my previous posts three times, memorize them, understand them.. before responding to me. It is very difficult to answer you when you have not even done your homework by reading my earlier posts and start throwing silly accusations. Thank you.

Please stop trying to play God…kthanksbye.

[Southie]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

So disagreeing with you and showing it.. means I am not mild and gentle in a whole lot of ways? Surely, you do sound self centric.

Your post meant to separate me from those who criticize terror group by putting “and” in between, which I disagreed.

Wut are you saying? What “and” are you referring to?

[Humaira_Noor]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Please go shoot yourself in privacy, jump in front of a moving train or inside a cage full of hungry lions…if nothing else, go see a psychiatrist.

but please do not include all Pakistanis and Muslims in to your depressed and self loathing thoughts by saying “we” or “our” …just because ISIS, Boko Haram etc. did wrong acts in this world.

It is YOUR problem if you hate yourself.

Thank you.

Name to tum ka Diwana hay but baat patay ki aur 110% sahi ki hay :k:

[gudiaali]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@PyariCgudia

Muqawee’s point is appropriate. People from our community are making us look bad.

If we provided a real education to all the kids and incentivized people sending their kids to school then these issues wouldn’t be so prevalent.

It’s not a urban school private educated youth that is causing these troubled just sayin’ . It’s the madrasah crowd.

The most violent party in Karachi is led by the highly qualified persons and their party members have always been the students from medical, engineering and Karachi university. its not the madrasah crowd.

[Balthier]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

This thread for the umpteenth time is NOT about if problems are existing in Pakistan or any other countries who claim to be Islamic.

It is about the mindset of those people who have depression about these problems so much that they lose the touch of reality and start associating themselves with people who have criminal mindset.

If you read my reply, you will see that it is dealing with the core issue, and justifies my stance on why people tend to use the “we” term. What its not dealing with, is your perception of the issue.

@diwana

“What do you comprehend and thought process which will make you join the people who burn religious minorities and say they are YOUR people?”

Thats how you decided to perceive my words. A debate on semantics is rarely productive.

[Balthier]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

Paid moles and/or so called and self proclaimed Pakistanis or ‘Muslims’ living inside or outside Pakistan write… “we” “us” or “our own” to make it look like ALL MUSLIMS or ALL Pakistanis somehow have to do with criminal behavior.

Shame on those people. They disgrace Pakistanis and Islam.

No people are using “we” , “us” and “our”, because they acknowledge that simply by disowning these groups, the problem won’t go away, because the problem is not the groups themselves, but rather the mindset, which exists to a large degree in the muslim world. Why deny facts? Only by acknowledging the problem, and admitting that the mindset is prevalent to a certain degree in the muslim world, you can actually start fighting it.

People are not trying to speak on behalf of others, nor are they depressed or full of self-hatred. The problem is out there for all to see, and the problem is for US to deal with.

Now I’m just repeating myself.

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@Balthier

If you read my reply, you will see that it is dealing with the core issue, and justifies my stance on why people tend to use the “we” term. What its not dealing with, is your perception of the issue.

Thats how you decided to perceive my words. A debate on semantics is rarely productive.

The core issue is what I said many times.

Majority Muslims are not related to anything criminals do.

You are free to use term “we” and say “you” are" one of those criminals by saying that.

Still no answer. You are the one who brought ‘cultural’ similarity to use some kind od defense for people who use words liks ‘we’, ‘us’ and now running away from answering question in return.

Be consistent.

[diwana]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@Balthier

No people are using “we” , “us” and “our”, because they acknowledge that simply by disowning these groups, the problem won’t go away, because the problem is not the groups themselves, but rather the mindset, which exists to a large degree in the muslim world. Why deny facts? Only by acknowledging the problem, and admitting that the mindset is prevalent to a certain degree in the muslim world, you can actually start fighting it.

People are not trying to speak on behalf of others, nor are they depressed or full of self-hatred. The problem is out there for all to see, and the problem is for US to deal with.

Now I’m just repeating myself.

Regardless of how much you support use of ‘we’ ‘us’, and ‘our’, all it means YOU are saying those people who say these words are including themselves in the criminal groups.

English must not be understood by those people, or they really ARE somehow among those criminals by acts or mindset.

[Balthier]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

@diwana

The core issue is what I said many times.

Majority Muslims are not related to anything criminals do.

You are free to use term “we” and say “you” are" one of those criminals by saying that.

Still no answer. You are the one who brought ‘cultural’ similarity to use some kind od defense for people who use words liks ‘we’, ‘us’ and now running away from answering question in return.

Be consistent.

The premises you set for your question are based on the perception you have of the issue. Since I am of opinion that your perception is incorrect, you can not expect me to provide an answer based on those premises. You have to realize that the premise you put forth, is not an undeniable fact, but rather a subjective opinion.

If you read my earlier replies, you will see that I have already answered your question. And I am being consistent.

Some things aren’t meant to be interpreted literally. If someone says “we must stop preaching hatred against non-muslims in our societies, because that’s leading to feelings of resentment against non-muslims”, it does not mean said person is actually preaching hatred. It simple means that said person is acknowledging that this is occurring in a society he feels a part of. And he acknowledges that this is something the society has to deal with as a collective.

If an America citizen says “we must stop bombing innocent people in Pakistan”, it does not mean he is actually participating in the bombing. He just wants the society to deal with the issue as a collective, because that’s the only way you can deal with the issue.

Like I said, a discussion on semantics is rarely productive. I also consider this discussion to have been brought to a conclusion on my part, since I don’t see the need to repeat my views.

[Southie]

Re: To those who are ashamed of being Pakistanis or related to Pakistan or Muslims…

We must reduce, reuse.

And recycle old topics.