ok moderator..u r really "moderate"...is not tht...if some1 says blah abt islam and prophet and try to prove fitna qadiyanism muslims then u r not here to delete..hahah...
ok my question to all all fitna qadiyanis here...infact tht question was raised by respectable moulana yousuf(late) ..remember tht moulana had written some fantastic books...and also beac of his efforts,qadiyanism fitna was called as "haram".....so my humble humble humble request to qadiyanis to reply here plz plz plz reply to this question
Question put by moulana shaheb was
"would u like(mirza tahir) the same death and last moments of life exactly as ur father and grandfather(mirzah ahmad qadiyani)...no offcourse not,cuz u know their fate"
plz reply all qadiyanis
and ya moderator dont delete my post.....
this question rock mirza tahir pants....it was amazing to read moulana book on qadiyanism fitna...my advice to all to read his great books
and ya moderator again my "request" to u not to delete my post
I would suggest, read the above mentioned books if you really want to get answers to your objections. But read them without any bias against ahmadiyyat and only to find the truth. May Allah open your hearts and eyes and may Allah give us all ‘hidayat’.
yes Allah should give us hidayat to destruct qadiyanis from every means ..AMEEN…may ALLAH show u people right path
by the way zakia kid,reply to my questionn…i know no a-s-s h-o-l-e qadiyani will reply
have a packet of wine and cheers with mirzi ahmad fate haha
moderator dont delete it
yes Allah should give us hidayat to destruct qadiyanis from every means ..AMEEN...may ALLAH show u people right path
by the way zakia kid,reply to my questionn...i know no a-s-s h-o-l-e qadiyani will reply
have a packet of wine and cheers with mirzi ahmad fate haha
moderator dont delete it
[/QUOTE]
I don't have to reply to any of your nonsense. I hope you don't belong to group of people for whome Allah has said:
2:7] Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.
[2:8] Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.
Does any of these clamants have a jama’at or a group of followers who still believe them to be true?
Secondly, can you justify with the timeline of the claim that when they claimed to be messiah, the solar and lunar eclipses happened in the specified time in ramazan according to the hadith within their lifetime and did they use that as a sign of their truth?
The correct question to be asked over here is that Did any of the above claimants use the sign of eclipses to put forward their claim of being a Mehdi? Do we have any historical document that shows that all of the above people used the phenomena of double eclipses to prove that they ineed are the Mehdi?
I am sure that none of the above people use this sign to declare themselves as a Mehdi!
Lunar 07-11-0743 Rmz 14, 125
Solar 07-25-0743 Rmz 28, 125
Claimed Mahdihood and Prophethood and successfully ruled over his followers for 47 years. Later, he advocated his throne in favor of his son. (Aimma-e-Tilbees, Vol. 1, P. 192)
The combination of Eclipses matched exactly those of Mirza Ghulam: 14th and 28th of Ramadhan
Mirza Ali Muhammad Bab
Lunar 07-13-1851 Rmz 13, 1267
Solar 07-28-1851 Rmz 28, 1267
Claimed to be Mahdi. His movement is still alive and has split off into Babism and Bahaism. They no longer claim to be Muslims.
(Double eclipses of 1829 and 1830 also could have been claimed for him; please note that Ali Muhammad died one month before the eclipse of 1851.
Hussain Ali Bahaullah
Lunar 11-15-1872 Rmz 13, 1289
Solar 11-30-1872 Rmz 28, 1289
Claimed to be the Promised One (Messiah) of every religion and a prophet. His followers no longer claim to be Muslims.
(Double eclipses of 1829, 1830, 1851, and 1873 also could be claimed by him)
Mahdi Sudani
Lunar 11-04-1873 Rmz 13, 1290
Solar 11-20-1873 Rmz 29, 1290
Claimed to be Mahdi and began a successful movement to fight the British colonialists.
(Double eclipses of 1851, 1872 and 1895 also could be claimed by him).
Please note the specific solar eclipse used by him occurred on the 29th of Ramadhan.
Dr. Alexander Dowie, USA
Lunar 03-21-1894 Rmz 13, 1311
Solar 04-06-1894 Rmz 29, 1311
During the life time of Mirza Ghulam and appropriating the second double eclipse we previously mentioned, he claimed to be the Promised Messiah.
(Double eclipses of 1851, 1872, 1873, and 1895 also could be claimed by him - please note that he made the claim for the same eclipses as Mirza Ghulam)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. ZakiAhmed,
The correct question to be asked over here is that Did any of the above claimants use the sign of eclipses to put forward their claim of being a Mehdi? Do we have any historical document that shows that all of the above people used the phenomena of double eclipses to prove that they ineed are the Mehdi?
I am sure that none of the above people use this sign to declare themselves as a Mehdi!
[/QUOTE]
Again your reinterpreting this hadith (whose authenticity has already been questiond) to fit into your claims.
The sunni scholars have already stated that they consider this hadith as very weak evidence.
Again I ask is there no other hadith that 'proves' that Mirza Ahmad is the promissed messiah?
You may have a long list of all these claimants to be Mahdi, but no single one of them have survived long enough to have a great number of followers such as the Ahmadiyya Movement. Also, as mentioned in your post, one such member that may have had a following turned away from Islam and broke off their wing as being non-muslims.
The Ahmadi Movement is contrary to that. Not only is it growing in large numbers in terms of followers, but the followers are true muslims with a sense of pure belonging to the holy prophet Mohammed (saw). The movement follows all teachings of Islam, under the banner of Islam and the love of their prophet peace be upon him.
Can you provide any historical document, any book, any writing from the above claimants that says that they have use this Hadith and those eclipses for their claims?
Being living when eclipses happened is one thing and then using eclipses as signs for a claim is a different thing!
As far as Mr. Dowie is concerned, he was a christian and a great opponent of Islam. How could he use a Hadith of Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) to be a Mehdi.
None of the above used eclipse as a sign! Only Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian did that.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Diva4U: *
The Ahmadi Movement is contrary to that. Not only is it growing in large numbers in terms of followers, **but the followers are true muslims* with a sense of pure belonging to the holy prophet Mohammed (saw). The movement follows all teachings of Islam, under the banner of Islam and the love of their prophet peace be upon him.
[/QUOTE]
Just one final question from me, and please just answer this without going off topic.
If someone does not believe Mirza Ahmad is he muslim? Yes or NO?
Lunar 03-21-1894 Rmz 13, 1311
Solar 04-06-1894 Rmz 29, 1311
During the life time of Mirza Ghulam and appropriating the second double eclipse we previously mentioned, he claimed to be the Promised Messiah.
(Double eclipses of 1851, 1872, 1873, and 1895 also could be claimed by him - please note that he made the claim for the same eclipses as Mirza Ghulam)
As far as I know, I think Dowie claimed that he was Elijah, he never claimed that he was Promised Messiah.
If you consider me a Muslim, I also consider you a Muslim! But if you consider me a non-muslim, then I should also be obliged to consider you a non-muslim. Very simple!
A true muslim will believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the messiah, the mahdi, that all religions are waiting for. Only Allah has to regard others as kafir, non-muslims etc. etc. Neither I, Nor You have the right to say who is muslim and who is not, but in order to believe in Islam and the genuine victory of islam, yes, one must believe in the reformer of Islam.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Mr. M,
My Question to you again:
Can you provide any historical document, any book, any writing from the above claimants that says that they have use this Hadith and those eclipses for their claims?
Being living when eclipses happened is one thing and then using eclipses as signs for a claim is a different thing!
As far as Mr. Dowie is concerned, he was a christian and a great opponent of Islam. How could he use a Hadith of Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) to be a Mehdi.
None of the above used eclipse as a sign! Only Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian did that.
[/QUOTE]
I dont care for these claimants, any of them. But how does this relate to the hadith which you use.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Wait...let me continue...
"As reported by Muhammad ibn Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the 1st (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 13th , 14th and 15th) of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 27th, 28th and 29th) of Ramadhan, and these two signs have not appeared since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth." [Dar Qutani, pg. 188]
[/QUOTE]
It says nothing about the Mahdi making such a claim, or that him caliming it would be the miracle.
And you all still havent provided any other hadith or proof that supports the claim that he was mehdi.
Anyway this whole thread is just going in circles, and not really going anywhere. Ill just leave it to the others to discuss this now.
Question put by moulana shaheb was
"would u like(mirza tahir) the same death and last moments of life exactly as ur father and grandfather(mirzah ahmad qadiyani)...no offcourse not,cuz u know their fate"
plz reply all qadiyanis
and ya moderator dont delete my post.....
[/QUOTE]
first of all, nobody knows no ones fate. Its only Allah Almighty who knows who's gonna get what. Second of all, what was wrong with Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's last moment and way of death? I dont think anyone dies a better way.everyone goes through a series of paining experiences (except for a very few). and what afterall all is the significance of this? Now that Mirza Tahir is dead we know he had a very peaceful death. According to ur logic tghis proves that he was a pious man and nearer to God. Doesnt it?
[QOUTE]
this question rock mirza tahir pants....it was amazing to read moulana book on qadiyanism fitna...my advice to all to read his great books
and ya moderator again my "request" to u not to delete my post
[/QUOTE]
Considering the language u used in this thread and a later one, it becomes quite clear how amazing that book by molvi yousaf will be. I know no shareef aadmi cud read it.
You can take it the way you like, but the real matter is that if you are not even interested in the signs and prophecies, then why does any of this matter anyways ? The same applies to all others who come here to debate. If they know they don't care, then so be it. The thing is most people do not go to the source of Ahmadiyaat. They get all there information from mullahs and so called ullemaas that have incorrect information. In order to come to the source, one would have to devout their time and read books and logically understand stuff. That, either people don't have a time and liking to do or would rather not do.
So, once again....none of this should really matter to you, if you truly don't care about it.
You can take it the way you like, but the real matter is that if you are not even interested in the signs and prophecies, then why does any of this matter anyways ? The same applies to all others who come here to debate. If they know they don't care, then so be it. The thing is most people do not go to the source of Ahmadiyaat. They get all there information from mullahs and so called ullemaas that have incorrect information. In order to come to the source, one would have to devout their time and read books and logically understand stuff. That, either people don't have a time and liking to do or would rather not do.
So, once again....none of this should really matter to you, if you truly don't care about it.
[/QUOTE]
Where did I say I dont care about the signs and prophecies, I said I dont care about the false claimists in that list.
