Sorry guys, i would love to continue with the debate but i am going for a vacation and wont be able to participate. I will respond when i come back on the weekend.
-Salman
Mr. M:-
You may doubt the autencity of the particular hadith but we don't and the reasons have been explained. Now, if you choose to follow that scholars that are trying their hardest to refute everything that belongs to the Ahmadiyya doctrine, then we can't help you. Yes, you are correct, you will end up in circles and so will this thread.
The Ahmadi doctrine believes in the following :- whether you find it weak or strong, that Allah will help you understand.
It is not only the hadith but thereafter that makes the doctrine a strong source of beilef. Read on...
As reported by Muhammad bin Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of Heaven and earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the first of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle of Ramadhan, and these two signs have not appeared since the creation of the Heaven and earth.'8
This sign is of very great importance. The- Tradition makes it clear that the sign has not appeared before as the sign of the coming of any other teacher or divinely appointed reformer. The sign is accepted as the sign of the time of the Promised Messiah by both Sunni and Shia authorities and is mentioned in the books of both. Sunni and Shia collections of Hadith mention these signs. It cannot be said, therefore, that the sign is reported by some and not by other authorities. Thirdly, the sign becomes important because it is mentioned even in earlier books as a sign of the second coming of Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus, narrating the signs of his second coming, said:
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.'9
The sign clearly refers to the eclipses of the sun and the moon. Though I am concerned at present with recounting the signs mentioned in the Hadith, it does not seem out of place to say that even in the Holy Quran the eclipses of the sun and the moon are mentioned as important signs of the latter days. In the chapter Qiyamah we have:
'He asks, "When is the Day of the Awakening?" But when the sight is dazzled and the moon is eclipsed and the sun and the moon are in conjunction.'10
The verses embody a significant description of the present time. The question is posed, 'When is the Day of Awakening due?' The answer is, 'When certain signs appear.' Among the signs are the dazzling of sight, meaning the occurrence of strange events and changes, also eclipses of the moon and the sun and the occurrence
8 Dar Qutani, p. 188. 10 Al-Qiyamah, 7-10. 9 Matthew 24:29.
of the two eclipses in the same month. The coming of the Promised Messiah marks the eve of the end of the world. The Holy Quran, therefore, supports the prophetic description given in the Hadith. The prophecy is of great importance and its fulfilment an event of unusual cosmic and spiritual significance. In 1311 A,H. (1894 A.D.) the prophecies were literally fulfilled. In the month of Ramadhan of this year, the moon suffered an eclipse on the first of the three dates, (i.e. the 13th) on which the lunar eclipse could be expected. The sun suffered an eclipse on the middle date, i.e. the 28th. This conjunc- tion of the two eclipses in the same month took place in the lifetime of a person who claimed to be the Mahdi as promised in the prophecies.
Two courses, therefore, seem open to thoughtful Muslims. Either (1) accept as true the prophecies of the Holy Prophet, the Holy Quran, and the earlier books - all of which declare that the time of the Messenger of the latter days will be marked by the conjunction of the lunar and the solar eclipses, the lunar eclipse occurring on the first, the solar on the second of the three dates on which they can be expected. If these prophecies are accepted as true, and if they have also been fulfilled in the lifetime of a claimant, then the authenticity of that claimant must needs be accepted also. The prophecy said that the conjunction of the two eclipses would not take place except in the time of the Mahdi. Or, (2) if they are not prepared to accept these prophecies or the Mahdi to whom they relate, then they must admit that the prophecies point to a sign which is no sign at all, which can give no help in identify- ing a claimant to spiritual office; which is, therefore, a useless sign.
**Some people object, saying that the prophecy speaks of the lunar eclipse on the 1st and of the solar eclipse in the middle of Ramadhan. But the eclipses said by us to have fulfilled the prophecy took place on the 13th and the 28th respectively. The objection is ill-founded and is seen to be of no consequence if we consider the phenomenon of eclipses and the words of Hadith which carry the prophecy. We should not forget that the eclipses, lunar and solar, are bound to take place on certain dates. There can be no deviation from these unless the whole cosmic system, the laws governing the movement of the heavenly bodies, are over- hauled and ordered on a new basis altogether. A new cosmic system may entail the destruction of the present one. So, if the words of the prophecy are taken superficially, the prophecy may point to Doomsday, to its eve, or the time of the Mahdi. Those who raise this objection no doubt pin their faith on the first date and the middle date mentioned in the prophecy, but the forget that the word used for moon in the prophetic text is Qamar. If the prophecy relates strictly to the first of the lunar month of Ramadhan, then in strict Arabic the word Hilal should have been used and not Qamar. The moon is not called Qamar until it has advanced into the fourth night. We have the authority of the dictionary:
'The Moon is called Qamar after the first three nights and remains Qamar up to the end of the month. On the first three nights, the moon is called Hilal.'11
We therefore have two important considerations.
(1) The Hadith uses the word Qamar, which, in any case, cannot mean the moon of the first, second or third night;
(2) the lunar eclipse, according to known cosmic laws, can take place on the 13th, 14th or 15th of a lunar month, not on the 1st. Therefore the 1st of Ramadhan mentioned in the prophecy means the first of the three nights on which. the lunar eclipse is possible, that is to say the 13th. To insist that the lunar eclipse should have occurred on the first night of Ramadhan as the prophecy apparently does, is quite unwarranted. Only persons deliberately ignoring the Word of God and the prophecy of the Holy Prophet would do so. Only persons who, by fair means or foul, wish to dissuade people from accepting the Promised Messenger would say so.
:-|
What in the world.All Im aware of is that Imam Mehdi will be recognized by the pious Muslims.(Future.. Qayamat time signs)He will then be asked to become their ruler and while taking the pledge ...a voice will come from the sky whish will be heard by all "This is Caliph of Allah, Imam Mehdi."
btw did anybody find the answer to that 14th century statement.
Muslim Queen,
Sorry to get the note a little late, but some of us have already heard the voice :)
What are you waiting for ?
What voice?
I have my faith .Im constantly waiting to increase it.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
*...a voice will come from the sky whish will be heard by all "This is Caliph of Allah, Imam Mehdi."**
Same voice you mentioned...
*My question is still there. Plz reply so I post the next question. *
This is a chain of Questions for followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani:
Question 1: List books/Istiharat/lectures etc of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with Date (year and month). No worries if you don’t find record for any particular book/Istiharat/lecture
Thanks in Advance.
Note: Do not provide any link to those book online are so. Just need the list of books and date.
Note: Late reply means I am busy at job.
inuit
ya what voice
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
*...a voice will come from the sky whish will be heard by all "This is Caliph of Allah, Imam Mehdi."**
Same voice you mentioned...
[/QUOTE]
It cant be heard yet- because its not Qayamat yet. That voice will only be heard when Qayamat is near -along with many other signs.And its Imam Mehdi -not Mirza something or other.
Can u tell any site about Ahmadiyya's
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by DiYa: *
Can u tell any site about Ahmadiyya's
[/QUOTE]
DiYa :-
The official website is www.alislam.org
The website has english and urdu lectures/ books etc.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
It cant be heard yet- because its not Qayamat yet. That voice will only be heard when Qayamat is near -along with many other signs.And its Imam Mehdi -not Mirza something or other.
[/QUOTE]
What are the signs of qayamat ? How do you know when it will be near ?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
**My question is still there. Plz reply so I post the next question. **
This is a chain of Questions for followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani:
Question 1: List books/Istiharat/lectures etc of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with Date (year and month). No worries if you don’t find record for any particular book/Istiharat/lecture
Thanks in Advance.
Inuit :-
Here are the list of his books and on the bottom of the page you can find a summary of some of them. If you want to read them, u have to order them.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
What are the signs of qayamat ? How do you know when it will be near ?
[/QUOTE]
There are many signs of Qayamt- you dont know any of them? I have some work to do will explain them later.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
The answer is not complete. Read the Question again - i ask for the list of book with DATE(YEAR/MONTH) of publication or written. If you can provide. thanks
I don't have each and every date of books published. You will have to research that yto find out. I provided you with the list of book names. For further dates, you need to look them up.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Thirdly, the sign becomes important because it is mentioned even in earlier books as a sign of the second coming of Jesus. In the New Testament, Jesus, narrating the signs of his second coming, said:
'Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light.' (Matthew 24:29)
[/quote]
The verse actually continues... "and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."
So when did the stars fall from heaven then?
Since you are so interested in the signs mentioned in Matthew, Chapter 24, you might want to consider a few verses earlier in the same chapter where Jesus reportedly said:
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:4-5)
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many." (Matthew 24:11)
Interesting isn't it?
[quote]
'He asks, "When is the Day of the Awakening?" But when the sight is dazzled and the moon is eclipsed and the sun and the moon are in conjunction.' (Al-Qiyamah, 7-10)
[/quote]
The joining of the sun and moon here signifies the advent of the day of judgement (al Qiyamah), not the advent of the Mahdi or a false prophet.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
I don't have each and every date of books published. You will have to research that yto find out. I provided you with the list of book names. For further dates, you need to look them up.
[/QUOTE]
List is available on internet. however if you provide me the list of books in chronological order that would be great. Thanks