I’m contuining a question of mine from this thread given that it has been closed… so…
Nonsense. Please quote:
- The clear verse of Qur’an you are referring to
- The hadith you have in mind
First if I may ask what is your belief? If I am not wrong, the way you are putting this question suggests that you don't believe in 2nd coming of messiah or for that matter, any reformer in the later days.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I am asking this because I think this will help in answering the question.
Reply
Gupguppy, if you are a muslim, then you should know that all muslims are waiting for a mahdi, a messiah. Read below :-
MESSIANISM IN ISLAM
Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet and messenger of God. Muslims also believe that God will grant total and comprehensive victory to Islam over other religions. The holy Qur’ãn talks about this promise in three different verses. It says:
He (Allãh) is the one who sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with the guidance and the religion of truth so that He may grant victory to it over every religion."
(The Qur’ãn 9:33; 48:28; 61:9)
When and how will this promise of God be fulfilled?
According to the unanimously accepted saying of the Prophet Muhammad, God will bring about a saviour before the end of time to establish the global domination of Islam over all religions. In other words, the saviour will establish the Kingdom of God on this earth. In Islamic traditions, that saviour is known by the name of "al-Mahdi".
The establishment of God’s Kingdom on earth at the hand of the righteous people has been clearly mentioned in the holy Qur’ãn. God says:
We would like to bestow a favour upon those who have been oppressed in the earth and make them leaders and make them inheritors (of the world)." (The Qur’ãn 28:5)
He again says,
Certainly, We wrote in the Psalms (Zabur)...`As for the earth, surely My righteous servants shall inherit it.’" (The Qur’ãn 21:105)
Even the present version of Psalms has this promise of God in chapter 37:1-29 where it says: "And just a little while longer, and the wicked ones will be no more...But the meek ones shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace...The righteous themselves shall inherit the earth."
This shows that the belief in the saviour is not unique to the Muslims. The Christians and the Jews are also are waiting for him: the Christians are looking forward to the second coming of the Christ while the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah.
MAHDI IN ISLAM
The belief in al-Mahdi —as the embodiment of the messiah or the saviour who will appear at the end of time— is a belief in the fulfillment of God’s promise. It is a belief common to all Muslims based on the unanimously accepted sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.).
Ibn Khaldun, the 14th century historian famous for his pioneering work in philosophy of history, writes in his Muqaddima:
"It has been (accepted) by all the Muslims in every epoch, that at the end of time a man from the family (of the Prophet) will, without fail, make his appearance, one who will strengthen Islam and make justice triumph. Muslims will follow him, and he will gain domination over the Muslim realm. He will be called the Mahdi."
Ibn Khaldun clearly states that Muslims in each generation have accepted the belief in the Mahdi. The unanimity of this belief among the Muslims is furthered strengthened by the fatwa issued from the General Secretariat of the World Muslim League in Mecca on the 11th of October 1976. This fatwa was written by Shaykh Muhammad al-Muntasir al-Katani and approved by a committee consisting of four other scholars.
After listing the names of twenty companions of the Prophet who have narrated the Prophet’s statements on the Mahdi, and after giving the names of the scholars who have written exclusively on al-Mahdi, the fatwa says:
"The memorizers and scholars of hadith have verified that there are reliable and acceptable reports among the ahadith on the Mahdi; the majority of them are narrated through numerous authorities. There is no doubt about their status as mutawatir and sahih reports.
"And the belief in the appearance of the Mahdi is obligatory, and that it is one of the beliefs of the people of the sunna and jama’ah; and none denies it except those who are ignorant of the sunna and innovators in doctrine.
So Diva.. all this ^ proves that "according to the quran and hadith, he was supposed to arrive in the 14th century"?
Focus on the bold parts, pls.
Wait...let me continue...
"As reported by Muhammad ibn Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the 1st (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 13th , 14th and 15th) of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 27th, 28th and 29th) of Ramadhan, and these two signs have not appeared since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth." [Dar Qutani, pg. 188]
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Wait...let me continue...
"As reported by Muhammad ibn Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the 1st (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 13th , 14th and 15th) of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 27th, 28th and 29th) of Ramadhan, and these two signs have not appeared since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth." [Dar Qutani, pg. 188]
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Umm sorry I am kinda slow, I did not understand where it says about the messiah and the Nazoool of him in 14th century ?
-Salman
Lets spare us the Dar Qutani and focus on Quran for a second, pls.
The timing for the anticipated advent of the Mahdi-Messiah in the Muslims is quite peculiar in that it is consistent with the timing of his second advent according to the Christian belief. Thus the Muslims and the Christians agree that their respective Messiahs would come at about the same time. Again, one God will only send one Messiah at any given time. More interestingly, the advent of the Messiah, by both Muslims and Christians was anticipated towards the end of the 19th or the beginning of the 20th century, which is approximately 13 centuries after the advent of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him). Coincidentally, Jesus’s first advent also occurred about 1300 years after Moses’ birth (1269 to be exact*).18 The consistent gap between the law giving prophets (Moses and Muhammad, peace be on him) and their respective Messiahs (Jesus and the anticipated Messiah in the 19th-20th century) reveals God's plan for the renewal of his message. Thirteen centuries after Moses' birth, Jesus appeared among the Jews to restore Moses’ Message (Torah) in its original form. Moses' message had been distorted to a point where it had lost its meaning and thus Jesus was sent to restore its original meaning. The advent of Jesus among the Jews was part of the overall Divine plan as this event had been foretold in Jewish scriptures long before its manifestation. Likewise, the anticipated advent of the Mahdi-Messiah to revive the law of Muhammad, peace be on him (i.e. Quran) thirteen centuries after the birth of Muhammad does not appear to be a mere coincidence. The revival of the Quranic teaching does not imply that the Quranic text has, in any sense, been changed over time. That is not possible because God had Himself taken the responsibility to safeguard His message.
The same concept is detailed in the traditions of the Holy Prophet:40
As reported by Muhammad bin Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of the Heaven and Earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the first of the Ramadan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle of Ramadan, and these two signs have not appeared to mark an event since the creation of the Heaven and Earth.
Islamic traditions and literature record numerous additional signs foretelling the advent of the Promised Mahdi/Messiah. A summary of these signs follows:
A Restorer ("Mujaddid") will be raised at the head of every century.
The Promised Messiah will be called "Prophet of God," Nabiyullah.
The Mahdi ("Guide") and the Messiah ("Chosen One") will be the one and same person.
The second advent of Jesus will be in the person of an Imam (religious leader) from amongst the Muslims.
The Messiah will kill the swine and break the Cross.45 This means he will rescue Muslims from depravity and expose the false beliefs on which Christianity was founded.
The Mahdi will abrogate religious wars.
At the time of the Mahdi’s coming, there will be great increase in knowledge and much mixing of the people .
At that time, new means of transport will come into use and camels will be redundant.
There will be decline in religious faith, and nothing will be left of Islam except its name and nothing of the Quran except its text.
The Christian nations will hold supremacy in the world.
When they hear of the Mahdi’s advent, Muslims are required to give him "ba'iat" (allegiance) even if they have to crawl on snow to get to him.53, 54
He will have 313 companions.55
He will be born a twin.56
He will recall the teachings of Jesus.57
He will suffer from two illnesses, one in the upper part of the body and one in the lower part.58
The pilgrimage to Mecca will be impeded (59).
There will be plague at the time.60
The Messiah will rise in the East.61, 62
He will come from a place called Kada.63
He will be of Persian decent.64
There will also be false claimant.65, 66
Islam would have three centuries of greatness, then it would ascend back to heaven for a thousand years.67 (This brings the start of its revival to the 14th century of the Hijrah).
The following conclusions can be drawn from the above evidence:
The New Testament establishes the "second coming of Jesus" and describes the signs before his advent namely "the sun and moon will loose their light."
The Quran supports the concept of a divinely inspired teacher, or Mahdi or Messiah for the Muslims, like Jesus was the Messiah to the Israelites after Moses.
The traditions of the Holy Prophet overwhelmingly support the concept and also define the conditions and signs before his advent. Interestingly, the most important sign about lunar and solar eclipses before Messiah's advent in Islam is consistent with Jesus' prophecy about his second coming in the New Testament.
The timing for the Promised Mahdi-Messiah was ripe in the late 1800's or early 1900's according to both Christian and Muslim sources. According to both beliefs, his second coming is imminent.
The string of reformers (mujadids) in Islam, which was to continue till the end of time, has been discontinued?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Diva4U: *
**The timing for the anticipated advent of the Mahdi-Messiah in the Muslims is quite peculiar in that it is consistent with the timing of his second advent according to the Christian belief. *
[/QUOTE]
Could we please stick to Islamic references and not follow what chirstian's has to say about the coming massiah ?
As faisal pointed out.. please stick and talk Quranic references not *'according to christian belief'. *
Diva, no offence, but you are going off in all different directions. All you needed to do was one ayat and be done with it. In addition, an authentic hadith would complement the ayat as well, if there is a need to explain the ayat.
Fistly who is Muhammad ibn Ali, was he a companion? , and he is not quoting the prophet :saw:.
Also why were the parts in brackets (in bold) added, for what reasons.
If you take them out it says:
“One is the eclipse of the moon on the 1st of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle of Ramadhan”
Which did not occur in your Mirza Ahmads time.
So I ask why were the parts in brackets added?
Dang, why didnt I think of that. Good point M
-Salman
And the moon is eclipsed. And the sun and the moon are brought together." (Al-Qiyamah 75:9-10)
No, it does not mention 14th century. But the scholars all refer to the advent of the messiah 13 centuries after prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
^ So now you are saying that your original statement was perhaps not as accurate as you thought. And instead of 'quran and ahadith', now its some 'scholars' who believed as such.
Yes, I am saying the there is no mention in the quran about the 14th century. It just mentions the end of times. There are hadiths though that mention his advent at the times of the marking of the eclipse.
I ask you, what are the signs of the arrival of the messiah ? What do you firmly believe as the signs of his arrival or of his anticipated coming ?
hadiths?
Ok, brings us back to the question asked earlier. Who is Muhammad ibn Ali that you have been quoting a few times?
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*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Yes, I am saying the there is no mention in the quran about the 14th century.
[/QUOTE]
Thank-you... finally, you admit defeat... none of the verses or hadith you have chosen mention anything about 14 centuries... this is all based on interpretations and interpolations and your use of an abacus to try to get somewhere near the dates you said could be found directly in the Qur'an and hadith... ridiculous and laughable really. As Faisal rightly pointed out, "you are going off in all different directions" and likewise as SalmanNY said, "I did not understand where it says about the messiah and the Nazoool of him in 14th century".
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
hadiths?
Ok, brings us back to the question asked earlier. Who is Muhammad ibn Ali that you have been quoting a few times?
[/QUOTE]
Actually Ill help her answer, its Imam Mohammed al Baqir bin 'Ali the fifth Shia Imam.
Heres more clarification regarding the hadith.
[QUOTE]
Narrated by 'Amr son of Shamer quoting Jabir, who quoted Mohammed bin 'Ali (Imam Mohammed al Baqir):
"For our Mahdi, there are two signs. Since the birth of Universe, these events have never taken place. Those two signs are that there will be Lunar Eclipse on the first night of Ramadhan and Solar Eclipse in the middle of Ramadhan. (Dar-e-Qatni, vol 1 p.188)
There are two points worth noting:
* The tradition mentioned above is a quotation of Imam Mohammed al Baqir bin 'Ali and not the Hadith of Holy Prophet Mohammed SAAW.
* For the last several centuries, Islamic Scholars of Hadiths (muhadditheens) have always maintained that the two narrators, 'Amr and Jabir, of this tradition are known to be liars. This tradition is therefore not to be relied upon.
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