To Diva4U: Awaited Messiah

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
I am sure others like AQ, bao bihari and others will agree or will have similar aqeedas. These are based on ahadeeth we consider as authentic.

[/QUOTE]

Regarding the collection of Hadiths related to the Mahdi, twenty-four Hadiths were noted by Ibn Khuldun, although, none of them is reported either by Bukhari or Muslim. We, however, uphold six collections of Hadiths to be most authentic and the Hadiths related to the Mahdi etc. do appear in the other four collections. As such, they cannot be ignored or brushed aside as unimportant. Let us glance here at two of them. One Hadith relates:

“The world shall not end until the land of Arabia is ruled by a man from my household (ahl-e-bait). His name shall be the same as mine”. [Ibn Majah, Tirmidhi, and Abu Dawood]

The other Hadith mentions:

“Upon the death of a ruler, a conflict will arise. Thereafter, a man will run away from Madinah and take refuge in Makkah. People will follow him and find him (hiding in Makkah). They will take Bai’yah (oath of allegiance) on his hand, despite his reluctance, between al-Rukn (corner of the Ka`abah near the black stone) and the Maqam al-Ibrahim. ”

An army will be sent from Syria to quell the Mahdi, but Allah (SWT) will cause the army to sink beneath the land between Makkah and Madina. This will be the sign for all the Muslims that he indeed is the Mahdi, and Muslims will then accept him en masse.

Before these events, another significant event must take place; that is, the Khilafah must first be established in the east of Arabia. This is also mentioned in a Hadith, that the forces will march to aid the Mahdi, from the east and help establish his government in Arabia. Presently, there are three countries situated, in the east of Arabia: Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Hence somewhere in this area, the Islamic government must have been established before the emergence of the Mahdi (this will be so as nothing short of a true Islamic government will send forces to help the Mahdi, for they will be, in effect, fighting against the whole non-Muslim world).

42

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
Aslam-o-Alakum,

Admin -- please dont close this thread. i have to add something.

busy right now,

regards & Thanks

inuit
[/QUOTE]
I am initiating this discussion again in the same thread; Thanks for Admin. However I would not be able to make too many posts in rely because of my busy schedule from Monday to Sunday. However I will be available the week after next week. Thanks

43

We appreciate your great input from your busy schedule and will be online waiting for your response. :wave:
-Salman

44

This is a chain of Questions for followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani:

Question 1: List books/Istiharat/lectures etc of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad with Date (year and month). No worries if you don’t find record for any particular book/Istiharat/lecture

Thanks in Advance.

Note: Late reply means I am busy at job.

inuit

JazakAllah bro. SalmanNY

45

ne one notice the absence of diva4u from this thread?

46

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by I'm Kool: *
ne one notice the absence of diva4u from this thread?
[/QUOTE]

Dont worry about her mate, she is very active in all other threads except this one. She wont come back to defend her movement of ahmediasim.
-Salman

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I guess that'll keep her out of the religion forum for a long, long time :D

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I don't need to defend anything. If you read my posts before, I have manged to clarify everything. I don't know what the ongoing discussion is about ?

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Here is the question’s you need to answer

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
I don't need to defend anything. If you read my posts before, I have manged to clarify everything. I don't know what the ongoing discussion is about ?
[/QUOTE]
i ask you about Mirza Ghulam's books listing with Dates

51

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
I don't need to defend anything.
[/quote]
You see you think that there was another prophet and for that you had defended yourself to great extent. What has happned now.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
If you read my posts before, I have manged to clarify everything. I don't know what the ongoing discussion is about ?
[/QUOTE]
I read all your posts and raised questions which are still un answered. Same is the case with many other people so if you have a belief on s'thing which you pasted before then bring the answeres for the asked questions.

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wht the hell tht is..y moderator deleted my post.....really now i m agree with salman who has said abt qadiyani influence here..huh

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by chalna: *
wht the hell tht is..y moderator deleted my post.....really now i m agree with salman who has said abt qadiyani influence here..huh
[/QUOTE]
Phew! my eyebrows raised

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Chalna, you don't have to resort to name calling or stoop to such a level. There are other people over here who hold on to their beliefs and are asking questions. If something, someone is wrong than I suggest you particpate in the debate and refute their claims in a civilized manner.

We are not here to condemn or condone anyone. Its a 'religion forum' and by implication everyone is allowed to discuss, debate, extrapolate and expound on topics of their interest without going overboard. Each one of us is endowed with faculties and we know how best to utilize them. So if anyone is wrong or has a weak argument, that will be proven in the course of a debate.

Mr. Bao Bihari had several questions to ask and he did that in a nice way. THis is just one example. These debate provide so many people a chance to learn which otherwise banning or deleting the posts won't do.You do not have to curse the other person to prove your point and highlight right from wrong :)

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\

Read This (in Urdu) to find your answers.

Read This (In English) to find your answers.

I think, this should do ‘itemam-e-hujjat’ from our side. These links contain answers to all the questions that have raised by our non-ahmadi muslim friends.

We are not here to win or lose on some arguments. Neither are we here to bash upon other people’s faith. They have a right to believe in whatever they want to believe in, similarly we have a right to believe in whatever we think is right. We are just here to convey our message. If people choose not to believe in whatever we say, we are fine with it because we think that their matter is with Allah.

Again remember, only Allah gives ‘hidayat’ to whosoever He wishes. Our job is just to convey the message and pray to Allah to keep us all on ‘sirat-e-mustaqeem’.

56

This question still remaines unanswered, If this miracle eclipses happens “once in the history of mankind”, what do u make of the above list which shows that it is a regular occurence?

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/\/\

BTW, this was also answered in that link.

Here is the post from that link:

Answer to the objection that lunar and solar eclipses have occurred many times in Ramazan

Objections have been raised that lunar and solar eclipses have occurred in the month of Ramazan several times and hence these could not be a reasonable criterion for the recognition of a Divine Messenger. It is true that, both eclipses have occurred in the same month of Ramazan many times but it is important to note that the Hadees makes mention of specific dates and the presence of the claimant is a vital part of the prophecy. The words ‘----Arabic----’ [which has never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth] used in the Hadees clearly show that the prophecy is highly significant.
Furthermore, the presence of the claimant is a necessary condition for the fulfillment of the prophecy. The words of the Hadees ‘our Mahdi’ make it clear that this Sign is for the benefit of the Mahdi. Mere occurrence of the eclipses without the claimant are of no significance.

The words ‘----Arabic----’ [which has never appeared before since the creation of the heavens and the earth] in the Hadees, imply that such a sign never occurred before. They do not imply that such eclipses never occurred before. The Promised Messiah, said:

"We are not concerned with how often solar and lunar eclipses have occurred in the month of Ramazan from the beginning of the world till today. Our aim is only to mention that from the time man has appeared in this world, solar and lunar eclipses have occurred as Signs only in my age for me. Prior to me, no one had this circumstances that on one hand he claimed to be Mahdi Mauood (Promised Reformer) and on the other, in the month of Ramazan, on the appointed dates, lunar and solar eclipses occurred and he declared the eclipses as signs in his favour. The Hadees of Darqutni does not say at all that solar and lunar eclipses did not occur ever before, but it does clearly say that such eclipses never occurred earlier as Signs, because the word ‘lum takuna’ is used which denotes feminine gender; this implies that such a Sign was never manifested before. If it was meant that such eclipses never occurred before ‘lum yakuna’ which denotes masculine gender was needed and not ‘lum takuna’ which denoted feminine gender. It is clear from this that the reference is to the two signs because signs are of feminine gender. Hence if anybody thinks that many times lunar and solar eclipse have occurred, it is his responsibility to show the claimant to Mahdi who declared the solar and lunar eclipses as his sign and this proof should be certain and conclusive and this can only happen if a book of the claimant is produced who claimed to be Mahdi Ma’hood and had written that the lunar and solar eclipses which occurred in Ramazan on the dates specified in Darqutni are the Signs of my truth. In short we are not concerned with the mere occurrence of solar and lunar eclipses even if they had been thousands of times. As a Sign this has happened at the time of a claimant only once and the Hadees has proved its authenticity and truth through its fulfillment at the time of the claimant to Mahdi." [Chashma-e-Marifat, p. 315]
The Promised Messiah, peace be on him, further said:

"As a matter of fact, since Adam to the present time, nobody ever made a prophecy like this. The prophecy has four aspects: (1) the occurrence of the lunar eclipse on the first of the eclipse nights. (2) the occurrence of the solar eclipse on the middle of the eclipse days, (3) the occurrence in the month of Ramazan and (4) the presence of the claimant who has been rejected. Hence if the greatness of this prophecy is denied, then show a parallel to it in the world, and until a parallel cannot be found, this prophecy ranks foremost among all those prophecies to which the verse ‘fla yuzhar ala ghaibehi ahada’ can be applied, because it is stated here that from the time of Adam to the end, it has no parallel." [Tohfa-e-Golarviya, p. 29]

58

Mr. M,

And would you also care to give the list of claimants of Mehdi, who used this sign of eclipses in order to prove their claim.

The point is the nobody has ever used the sign of eclipses to claim that they are they Mehdi. It has never happened before!

59

Im not really familiar with the list of claimants but found the following anyway. You can discuss it all you like. No doubt you will have some explanation for it.

From link

  1. Dr Alexander Dowie in USA, 1890s.
  2. Mahdi Sudani in Sudan
  3. Mirza Ali Baab in Iran. Claimed to be Mahdi in 1260 AH.
  4. Subhe Azal, the successor of Mirza Ali Baab.
  5. Baha-ullah, successor of Mirza Ali Baab. Both claimed to be Mahdi.
  6. Saleh bin Tarif Burghwati claimed prophethood and Mahdihood in 125AH. After ruling over his people for 47 years, in 174 AH he abdicated the throne in favour of his son.(AlIstaqsa LAkhbar alMaghrib alAqsa, see Aimma-e-Tilbees vol 1 p.192)
  7. Abu Mansoor Eisa claimed prophethood and Mahdihood in 341 AH and ruled over his people for 28 years. (Aimma-e-Tilbees vol 1 p.194)
  8. Abu Ghafeer Mohammed bin M’uaaz. Claimed Mahdihood in 268 AH and ruled over his people for 29 years. (Aimma-e-Tilbees vol 1 p.194)

And you can find a similar list here at the bottom of the page
link

They calimed to be Mehdi, Yes or No?

60

Getting back to that hadith i already posted this link, Which doesnt even mention Mirza Ahmad, but talks about the hadith generally.
Imam Mahdi and Ramadhan with two Eclipses

‘Verily, for our Mahdi there are two signs which have never as yet concurred since the creation of the heavens and earth; first is the eclipse of the moon on the first night of Ramadan, and second is the eclipse of the sun during the middle of that same Ramadan. This (concurrence of a solar and lunar eclipse) has never happened since Allah created the heavens and earth.’

(Dare Qutni vol.2 p.65)

This hadith is very weak and cannot be considered as evidence, as I already pointed out in this thread (and in the link). It wasnt even narrated by our Prophet :saw:.

Also it doesnt mention any other signs or conditions or circumstances.

Anyway is this the only hadith you use to justify him being a messiah? Is this what the whole claim is built upon?

Surely there must be more evidence.