To Diva4U: Awaited Messiah

[gupguppy]

Diva4U is just trying to derail the thread from my original and very specific question since she knows now that she blundered big time by insisting that the 14 centuries period was mentioned in Qur'an and hadith... see my earlier reply...

[Diva4U]

gupguppy... I think you have a problem with your understanding of english. I am NOT here to fight a war/battle with you. I already said there was no stating of the 14th century specifically in the quran. My bad. I am human too. However, I do recall that it was mentioned in the hadith about the arrival at the 14th century mark after prophet Muhammed's (pbuh) time of the advent of the messiah/mahdi.

I have given you the quote from the quran in regards to the eclipse. There is no defeat on my part. The general concensus between the majority of muslims is the arrival of the messiah/mahdi and the timing was that of the eclipses. Everyone knows that. It's not new information.

[system]

*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
gupguppy… I think you have a problem with your understanding of english. I am NOT here to fight a war/battle with you. I already said there was no stating of the 14th century specifically in the quran. My bad. I am human too. However, I do recall that it was mentioned in the hadith about the arrival at the 14th century mark after prophet Muhammed’s (pbuh) time of the advent of the messiah/mahdi.

I have given you the quote from the quran in regards to the eclipse. There is no defeat on my part. The general concensus between the majority of muslims is the arrival of the messiah/mahdi and the timing was that of the eclipses. Everyone knows that. It’s not new information.

Diva sorry but you have no clue of what you are talking about. You say one thing in one thread and then totally the opposite of it in an other. You just do not want to admit that you are wrong. Here is ** your** post from this thread.

So please get your act straight before you tell someone that they have a problem with the understanding of english.

Here is you saying

*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Bao Bihari,

It’s very interesting to see how much love you have for the Prophet Mohammed (saw). If someone was barking against the holy prophet, would you just sit there and take it ? I highly doubt it. Anyways, why are you so picky on each and every line of what Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmed said. You don’t have to believe in him if you feel he is wrong. You are the one who stirs up the questions and then all you do is say “I can’t believe this” “I cant believe that”. Anyways, where is the messiah that you are waiting for ? I believe according to the quran and hadith, he was supposed to arrive in the 14th century. Well, its way past that time frame ? Where is he ? Is he still up in the skies ?

[system]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
gupguppy... I think you have a problem with your understanding of english. I am NOT here to fight a war/battle with you. I already said there was no stating of the 14th century specifically in the quran. My bad. I am human too. However, I do recall that it was mentioned in the hadith about the arrival at the 14th century mark after prophet Muhammed's (pbuh) time of the advent of the messiah/mahdi.

I have given you the quote from the quran in regards to the eclipse. There is no defeat on my part. The general concensus between the majority of muslims is the arrival of the messiah/mahdi and the timing was that of the eclipses. Everyone knows that. It's not new information.
[/QUOTE]

Here you said it second time and then you are denying it altogether in this thread. Wah ! This really tells a lot about you and your relgion i.e based on facts that never ever exist.

**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Diva4U: *Anyways, where is the messiah that you are waiting for ? I believe according to the quran and hadith, he was supposed to arrive in the 14th century. Well, its way past that time frame ? Where is he ? Is he still up in the skies ? *

[gupguppy]

Thank-you, SalmanNY. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Diva4U, it's obvious your left hand doesn't know what your right hand is typing... there's no need to answer questions I haven't even asked... my point is proven in that your original claim was "nonsense".

[M]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
However, I do recall that it was mentioned in the hadith about the arrival at the 14th century mark after prophet Muhammed's (pbuh) time of the advent of the messiah/mahdi.
[/QUOTE]

Simple question, could you please provide this hadith and nothing else.

[M]

http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/melwood/368/eclramx.html

Eclipses during Ramadan by David L. McNaughton

From the above article (which was written by a non muslim no less)

In March/April 1894 (Ramadan 1311), Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (founder of the Ahmadiyya or Qadiani movement in Pakistan) interpreted a double-eclipse as a sign that he was a genuine modern-day prophet (6). The lunar eclipse during that particular month was only partial, although the solar one two weeks later was total in a few places in eastern Asia (7). However, there was nothing at all extraordinary about those two eclipses: every 22 or 23 Islamic years there is at least one Ramadan featuring a pair of eclipses two weeks apart (8) - one of which is usually partial; see Table 1.

**And here is Table 1, which shows how often this has occured in the month of Ramadan **

Table 1

Recent double-eclipse Ramadans

TYPE AND DATE

. . . . . . . . . .AH . . .AD . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .LUNAR . . . . . . . . . SOLAR

. . . . . . . . .1402 . .1982 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .6 Jul . . . . . . . . .P . .20 Jul
. . . . . . . . .1401 . .1981 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 17 Jul . . . . . . . .CT .31 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1379 . .1960 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . 13 Mar . . . . . . .P . .27 Mar
. . . . . . . . .1378 . .1959 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 24 Mar . . . . . . .CA . 8 Apr

. . . . . . . . .1357 . .1938 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .7 Nov . . . . . . . .P . .21 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1356 . .1937 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 18 Nov . . . . . . .CA . 2 Dec

. . . . . . . . .1335 . .1917 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .4 Jul . . . . . . . . . P . .19 Jul
. . . . . . . . .1334 . .1916 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . .15 Jul . . . . . . . .CA .30 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1312 . .1895 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .11 Mar . . . . . . .P . .26 Mar
. . . . . . . . .1311 . .1894 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . .21 Mar . . . . . . .C . . .6 Apr

. . . . . . . . .1290 . .1873 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .4 Nov . . . . . . . .P . .20 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1289 . .1872 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 15 Nov . . . . . . . C . 30 Nov

. . . . . . . . .1267 . .1851 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 13 Jul . . . . . . . . CT . 28 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1245 . .1830 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . . 9 Mar . . . . . . . .P . .24 Mar
. . . . . . . . .1244 . .1829 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 20 Mar . . . . . . . CT . .3 Apr

. . . . . . . . .1223 . .1808 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .3 Nov . . . . . . . . P . .18 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1222 . .1807 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 15 Nov . . . . . . . .C . .29 Nov

. . . . . . . . .1200 . .1786 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . 11 Jul . . . . . . . . CT . .25 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1178 . .1765 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .7 Mar . . . . . . . . .P . .21 Mar
. . . . . . . . .1177 . .1764 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . 18 Mar . . . . . . . .CA . .1 Apr

. . . . . . . . .1156 . .1743 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . T . .2 Nov . . . . . . . . .P . . 16 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1155 . .1742 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P .12 Nov . . . . . . . . .CA .27 Nov

. . . . . . . . .1133 . . 1721 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T. . 9 Jul . . . . . . . . . . P . . 24 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1110 . . 1699 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . .15 Mar . . . . . . . .C . .31 Mar

. . . . . . . . .1089 . . 1678 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .29 Oct . . . . . . . . P . .14 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1088 . . 1677 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . . .9 Nov . . . . . . . CT . 24 Nov

. . . . . . . . .1066 . . 1656 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . . .6 Jul . . . . . . . . .(T) . 21 Jul

. . . . . . . . .1044 . . 1635 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . . .3 Mar . . . . . . . . P . 18 Mar
. . . . . . . . .1043 . . 1634 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . .14 Mar . . . . . . . .CT .29 Mar

. . . . . . . . .1022 . . 1613 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . .28 Oct . . . . . . . . .P . 12 Nov
. . . . . . . . .1021 . . 1612 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . . .8 Nov . . . . . . . . C . 22 Nov

. . . . . . . . . .999 . . 1591 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .T . . .6 Jul . . . . . . . . . P . .20 Jul
. . . . . . . . . .998 . . 1590 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .P . .17 Jul . . . . . . . . .CA .31 Jul

Notes for Table 1

Dates apply to the instant of maximum eclipse.

Lunar eclipses: P=Partial; T=Total;
Central lunar eclipses are always total.

Solar eclipses: CA=Central and Annular; CT=Central and Total;
(T)=Total but non-central; P=Partial;
C=Central, alternating between Total and Annular.

[AQ]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by M: *

Simple question, could you please provide this hadith and nothing else.
[/QUOTE]
and also the magic word: "Reference"

[M]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
Wait...let me continue...

"As reported by Muhammad ibn Ali, the advent of our Mahdi will be marked by two important signs. These signs have never appeared before, not since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth. One is the eclipse of the moon on the 1st (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 13th , 14th and 15th) of Ramadhan, and the other is the eclipse of the sun in the middle (of the possible eclipse dates i.e. 27th, 28th and 29th) of Ramadhan, and these two signs have not appeared since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth." [Dar Qutani, pg. 188]
[/QUOTE]

According to Table 1 as shown above (in my previous thread) this would make a mockery of the claim that "These signs have never appeared before not since the creation of the Heaven and the Earth", since they occur at regular intervals (ie. in the middle and end of ramadan which is your interpretation of the hadith, as shown in the highlighted parts above).

This shows that either your (or your groups) interpretation of it is incorrect or even if we were to take your interpretation of it, it would clearly be false.

[system]

*Originally posted by M: *

Simple question, could you please provide this hadith and nothing else.

First she claimed to have a Quranic reference, now you really think that she will have a reference from hadiath as well ? Common man give the lady a break
-Salman

[M]

Ok found some more intresting stuff regarding that hadith from Imam Mahdi and Ramadhan with two Eclipses

Here is the hadith as mentioned by them

Imam Ali bin Umar Dar-e-Qutni states in his collection of ahadith: My Ustaad Abu Saeed Istakhri narrates from his Ustaad Muhammad bin Abdullah, who narrates from his Ustaad Ubaid bin Ya eesh, and he narrates from Yunus bin Bukair, and he from Amar bin Shamir, and he from Jaabir who narrates that Muhammad bin Ali said:

‘Verily, for our Mahdi there are two signs which have never as yet concurred since the creation of the heavens and earth; first is the eclipse of the moon on the first night of Ramadan, and second is the eclipse of the sun during the middle of that same Ramadan. This (concurrence of a solar and lunar eclipse) has never happened since Allah created the heavens and earth.’

(Dare Qutni vol.2 p.65)

As mentioned before this hadith is not a quote from the Prophet :saw: but from Imam Mohammed al Baqir bin 'Ali.

You can further read what is said about this hadith.

"Secondly, two names appear in this chain, viz. Amar bin Shamir and Jaabir. Let us now study statements of the Muhadditheen regarding the authenticity and integrity of these two:

The author, Imam Dare Qutni himself , after quoting this narration, singles out these two figures in the chain of transmission and states: Both are unreliable narrators. Their narrations are not admissible as proof to substantiate any claim. (Dare Qutni vol.2 p.65) "

Did you (or your leaders) forget to mention this part, where Imam Dare Qutni himself criticies the hadith.

You can also read what the other scholars state regarding the transmittors of this hadith

"Allama Zhahabi, a great authority on hadith has the following entry in his famous critique, Meezaanul I’tidaal:
Amar bin Shamir: A Shia from Kufa. Yahya (bin Mu’een) says: (He is) a non-entity. Jauzjaani says: A misguided impostor. Ibni Hibbaan says: This man is a Shia who insults the Sahaba, and fabricates narrations in the name of authentic Ulema. Imam Bukhari says: His narrations are rejected. Yahya says: His narrations should not be recorded. Suleimani says: This Amar used to fabricate narrations for the Shias. Imam Nasaai says: His narrations have been discarded.
(Meezaanul I’tidaal vol. P.268)

Allama Ibni Hajar quotes the following in his work, Lisaanul Meezaan: Ibni Abi Haatim says: I asked my father(Abu Haatim) about him (Amar bin Shamir), and he replied: His ahadeeth are totally rejected, a weak narrator, a person one should never get involved with. The Muhadditheen have forsaken him. Abu Abdullah Haakim (a high ranking authority on hadith) states: He has many fabrications narrated from Jabir Ju afi, and no-one else besides him (Amar bin Shamir) narrate these blatant fabrications from Jabir.
(Lisaanul Meezaan vol. P. 367) "

So you can see that “From the above it is evident that this narration is very weak and flimsy, and cannot serve as the basis for any firm belief or practice.”

[inuit]

Aslam-o-Alakum,

Admin -- please dont close this thread. i have to add something.

busy right now,

regards & Thanks

inuit

[stupid_idiot]

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
A Restorer (“Mujaddid”) will be raised at the head of every century.

: ), how do you integrate this with the Mirza.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The Promised Messiah will be called “Prophet of God,” Nabiyullah.

Please narrate the whole tradition, in part no one knows what you are talking about. The prophets have ended, even Jesus [as] would come as a follower of Muhammad [s] this time.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The Mahdi (“Guide”) and the Messiah (“Chosen One”) will be the one and same person

The second advent of Jesus will be in the person of an Imam (religious leader) from amongst the Muslims.

The Messiah will kill the swine and break the Cross.45 This means he will rescue Muslims from depravity and expose the false beliefs on which Christianity was founded..

Again quote completely with the refference as well. The the breaking of the cross would be after the wars.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The Mahdi will abrogate religious wars.

At the time of the Mahdi’s coming, there will be great increase in knowledge and much mixing of the people .

At that time, new means of transport will come into use and camels will be redundant.

There will be decline in religious faith, and nothing will be left of Islam except its name and nothing of the Quran except its text.

The Christian nations will hold supremacy in the world.

When they hear of the Mahdi’s advent, Muslims are required to give him “ba’iat” (allegiance) even if they have to crawl on snow to get to him.53, 54

He will have 313 companions.55

He will be born a twin.56

Give the complete traditions please. and metion the refference along with it.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
He will recall the teachings of Jesus.57

sure abou this?

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
He will suffer from two illnesses, one in the upper part of the body and one in the lower part.58

The pilgrimage to Mecca will be impeded (59).

There will be plague at the time.60

The Messiah will rise in the East.61, 62

He will come from a place called Kada.63

Please complete the parts of the traditions and give refference.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
He will be of Persian decent.64

There will also be false claimant.65, 66

I know of two, I count Mriza as one of them.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
Islam would have three centuries of greatness, then it would ascend back to heaven for a thousand years.67 (This brings the start of its revival to the 14th century of the Hijrah).

: ) Nice calculations okay how does it bring the start of the 14th century.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The following conclusions can be drawn from the above evidence:

It is unwise to draw conclusion on part os the text and moreover the refference is not given.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The New Testament establishes the “second coming of Jesus” and describes the signs before his advent namely “the sun and moon will loose their light.”

So you are also trying to convince the Christans that Mirza was the ‘promissed Masiah’?

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The Quran supports the concept of a divinely inspired teacher, or Mahdi or Messiah for the Muslims,

I’m sorry I missed that part which divinely inspired teachings are you talking about one that already have been revialed or the ones which would be/had been revialed on the Messiah him self.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
like Jesus was the Messiah to the Israelites after Moses.

Right, so the coming Messiah would integrate the properties of Jesus?

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The traditions of the Holy Prophet overwhelmingly support the concept and also define the conditions and signs before his advent. Interestingly, the most important sign about lunar and solar eclipses before Messiah’s advent in Islam is consistent with Jesus’ prophecy about his second coming in the New Testament.

Can we talk about Islam for a second and leave the christand and scripts for latter discussions, cuz you are mingling things here.

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The timing for the Promised Mahdi-Messiah was ripe in the late 1800’s or early 1900’s according to both Christian and Muslim sources. According to both beliefs, his second coming is imminent.

Fasinating, how do you do these calculations btw the next time you copy/paste please make sure to update the dates. : )

**Originally posted by Diva4U: **
The string of reformers (mujadids) in Islam, which was to continue till the end of time, has been discontinued?

Which striing are you talking about, name every one you include in the string?
Who told you the string is broken?

[stupid_idiot]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Diva4U: *
And the moon is eclipsed. And the sun and the moon are brought together." (Al-Qiyamah 75:9-10)
[/quote]

Chapter 75 Verse 6 . He asketh : When will be this Day of Resurrection?
Chapter 75 Verse7 . But when sight is confounded
Chapter 75 Verse8 . And the moon is eclipsed
Chapter 75 Verse9 . And sun and moon are united ,
Chapter 75 Verse10 . On that day man will cry : Whither to flee!
Chapter 75 Verse11 . Alas! No refuge!
Chapter 75 Verse12 . Unto thy Lord is the recourse that day
Now what did you wanted to emphasis on?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Diva4U: *
No, it does not mention 14th century. But the scholars **all* refer to the advent of the messiah 13 centuries after prophet Muhammed (pbuh).
[/QUOTE]
Did I hear you say all scholars? If you meant that, I'm sorry to say you are incorrect

[stupid_idiot]

[QUOTE]
Diva4U wrote in one of his/her EARLIER posts: **
Anyways, where is the messiah that you are waiting for ? I believe **ACCORDING TO THE qURAN AND HADITH, he was supposed to arrive in the 14th century. Well, its way past that time frame ? Where is he ? Is he still up in the skies ?
[/quote]

[QUOTE]
Diva4U wrote in one of his/her LATER posts: **
Yes, I am saying the there is **no mention in the quran about the 14th century. It just mentions the end of times. There are hadiths though that mention his advent at the times of the marking of the eclipse.
[/QUOTE]
: ), and which hadith are you reffering to here?

[zakiahmed]

Fulfillment of Prophecy of Promised Messiah :as: which he made more than 100 years ago.

O mankind! hearken, this is the prophecy of God Who made the Heavens and the Earth. He will spread this Movement in all the countries and will give it supremacy over all through reason and arguments. Remember, no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents who are living at present will die and not one of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, descend from the sky and then their children who survive them will also pass away and none of them will see Jesus, son of Mary, coming down from the heaven. Generations of their posterity will also perish and they too will not see the son of Mary descending from heaven. Then God will create restlessness in their hearts; that the day of the glory of the Cross had passed away and the world had taken another turn but Jesus, son of Mary, had still not come down from the sky. **Then all the wise people will discard this belief and the third century from today will not have completed when all those who had been waiting for Jesus, both Muslims and Christians will despair of his coming and entertaining misgivings shall give up their belief and there will be only one Faith in the world and one preceptor. **I came only to sow the seed. That seed has been sown by my hands. It will now grow and blossom forth and none dare retard its growth.

(The Promised Messiah in Tazkira-tush-Shahadatain)

How true was our Messiah :as: . Alhamdo Lillah, with Allah’s blessing, we were able to recognize the Imam of the age.

[skhan]

Seems Diva has conveniently disappeared. Bottom line is there is no clear cut reference in the Quran or an AUTHENTIC hadith that there is a Mahdi.

It's best that if a person doesn't know what they're talking about, to keep their mouth shut. Especially if they are trying to prove something religious.

[Faisal]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
Bottom line is there is no clear cut reference in the Quran or an AUTHENTIC hadith that there is a Mahdi.
[/QUOTE]
Its a matter of aqeeda, so I wouldn't be to brash about trashing others. Ok, we disagree, fine. But that doesn't mean the other has lost or something.

As a muslim I have an aqeeda that there will be a Mahdi in the future and that Hazrat Isa (Peace be upon him) will return. I am sure others like AQ, bao bihari and others will agree or will have similar aqeedas. These are based on ahadeeth we consider as authentic.

The only thing in Diva's post that raised my eye-brows was the insistence on 14th century. I assume that is essential to their aqeeda cz they consider their religious leader as Mahdi. Its good that this discussion has cleared some of these issues. If you were to ask an Ismaili or a Bohri, they may have a very different interpretation of Mahdi and his role and the timeline, and I can safely presume they will all have very good justification of believing what they believe. I or you may not agree with them. Whether that means they are all condemned to hell; that I am not too sure, as that is not my place to decide.

[skhan]

^ True, I also believe in the return of Hazrat Isam, however, like you said, it's a matter of aqeedah. I was referring to the fact that she claimed something she was unable to prove (like the 14 centuries thing) via the Quran or Hadith. There is no win/lose, alteast not to me. But there is a right and wrong. And claiming that something is in the Quran or Hadith when it isn't, is wrong.

[system]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
Seems Diva has conveniently disappeared. Bottom line is there is no clear cut reference in the Quran or an AUTHENTIC hadith that there is a Mahdi.

It's best that if a person doesn't know what they're talking about, to keep their mouth shut. Especially if they are trying to prove something religious.
[/QUOTE]

Challo Yaro, mitto pao

Its a sad thing that Her ahl-e-aqeeda loag, like Zakiahmed, couldnt back up her claim. That tells a lot about a relgion it self...
-Salman