Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasphemy

[diwana]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Syed Ali sahib , my point is not whether its justified or not , or in what context or situations , ..that is beside the point .. also irrelevant is the Other Factor of violence , like racism , nationalism or pure inbreed propensity for barbarity .... i am talking only about religions inbuilt mechanism for violence , and am neither justifying nor defending nor condoning any other reason for it ..., neither disagreeing to the FACT that there are other forms and reason for violence... true they are there ...

But my Point is simple .... Religion " ... has inbuilt violence ..." which it endorses and condones , for whatever reasons... right or wrong , justified or not ... Man uses or rather exploits them , because THEY ARE THERE in the first place for whatever reasons.

"religion does ask us to defend ourselves"...

...and in case of propagation , it also asks " .... Deen ko pheylaoo , mushriqoon say jihad ker key , pehlay unheen dawat doo , woh na maneen to un say laroo...... qatal karoo , or ghalib aa jaoo to ...."

self-righteous reasons to wage war to force one's point of view...? Isn't it ...

Like i said , i am not into the justification thingum , the point is , religion provides the argument and justification for violence , self defense is one angle and propagation is another angle ....

my whole argument is in One particular context ... and that of Religion and religion only .

the question in my view is .... does religion approves violence or men use it on their own , using religion as a pretext ??,

my opinion is , religion endorses and approves and provides justification and at time encourages it ...its a inbuilt thing in religion , man only find it and then uses it ....not on his own , but because its already there in religion . ....

this does not deny the existence of other factors , which use violence for its objectives ...

..I never denied the existence of wars for other non religious reasons , neither I said they are /were right ... ?

...and I never said Islam only ........for Christian crusaders destroyed Inca , Maya and Aztec civilization for the propagation of their religion ...

I think I said that above that these are like same old ranting.

The reason why I said that, these arguments have been cited many times by people who are against religions. Particularly Islam.

You said many times the word violence or barbarism.

This is completely uncalled for despite you have been given very reasonable answers.

Islam does not have anything in its teachings even close to violence, indiscriminate mass killings/murder and not even murder of a single person for any material gain including land, wealth, power or so on.

The Quranic verse you mentioned or any similar verse is vastly utilized by people who hate Muslims or Islam for their ulterior motives.

There are several evidences where Quran admonish people not to engage in 'violence',barbarism or 'fasad' on earth, and expects people to follow the rules of humanity...even when in power.

Please read about Conquest of Makkah (Fateh Makkah), who could have stopped the winning group of Muslims to kill each and every pagan who has been engaged in killing muslims or causing substantial harm?

It did not happen. No blood shedding occurred.

Even those who killed the prophet SAW family members were pardoned.

This is what the prophet SAW said that day:

"O people! You were bad kinsmen and neighbors for me. You expelled me from my hometown and fought against me in an unmanly way. You did not spare any attempt to persecute me, my friends and my companions. You killed my uncle, Hamza ibn Abd Al-Muttalib. You fought against Allah's Messenger so I have the right to avenge myself on you. Based on this right, your men must be killed, your wives and children must be taken captive, your property must be seized by the conquerors, and your houses must be demolished. But I leave the judgment to you. What do you think?"

Suhayl ibn Amr, prominent Quraish representing his people, said, "We speak good and think good. You are an honorable brother and an honorable nephew who has power over us."

These words impressed the tenderhearted Nabi Muhammad (saw) in such a way that his eyes were filled with tears. People of Makkah started weeping. Then Nabi Muhammad (saw) said, "I do the same thing as my brother Joseph did. There is no sin upon you today. May Allah (SWT) forgive you; He is the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful."]

I say you do need to get your mind clear on this.

When come across these kind of verses do try to read so many others and if not at least read the verses before and/or after.

Selective reading is not an excuse for ignorance.

[Afat]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

..Like I said in the very beginning , its a cricular debate , yet you choose to start the polemics , ..and as expected , started defending Islam ,.... where as objectively speaking , its not just Islam , its all religion ,... so that my Last post on this topic ...
anything still not clear .... read my posts again , Objectively ... and rationally .

I am very clear on it , and consider ' Religion " as ONE of the most Important reason for the violence , ....because its ideology provides seeds to humans for violence .

.. human use religion for their violence , because its already there in the first place ...

...the Ayat is there , isn't it , irrespective of the fact , why was it sent , on what occasion and in what context ...that is irrelevant , the fact of the matter is , ...it has set a rule for War with infidels , and this Ayat has been used many a times through out history by muslims....even TTP uses this very same Ayat as their justification , its another matter their concept of " Infidels " is a very sweeping one .

Let me repeat , its not just Islam , that ayat is just an example from One religion , there are similar conjunction is other religions too ,... I have given example of Inca , Maya and Aztec annihilation ....

and do you know , Buddhism , though not a religion but a way of life , considered the most ' peaceful ' has similar sanction for violence in it ...? ..google Shaolin Temple and his monks .

please learn to differentiate in the generals and the specifics .......

Bye and out . no more polemics from my side ... though I AM 150% sure you will again repeat the same all over again ..

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

I see people who are against Anti Blasphemy law are using this incident for their own benefit..... What about sialkot killings? Have you peoples never seen people (mob) killing or trying to kill a person after road accidents? Just see my earlier post where i posted links for two different incidents ...One of the incident is similar to sialkot killing where people suspected Bahurupiyas as thieves and killed them in front of police.... So what should we do about the law which incriminate a person as thief?

All that shows is that Pakistanis have multiple sources of venom flowing through their veins. We not only need to abolish and garbage the repugnant "Blasphemy" law, but also tackle religious fanaticism in general, we need to improve the police force, tackle corruption, reform the justice system, and a multiple other things.

But to start with, lets destroy atleast one source of the poison, lets get rid of the blasphemy law. There is nothing Islamic about it.

People killing thieves can be dealt with. People who are fired up by religious zeal, are far more difficult to deal with.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

All that shows is that Pakistanis have multiple sources of venom flowing through their veins. We not only need to abolish and garbage the repugnant "Blasphemy" law, but also tackle religious fanaticism in general, we need to improve the police force, tackle corruption, reform the justice system, and a multiple other things.

But to start with, lets destroy atleast one source of the poison, lets get rid of the blasphemy law. There is nothing Islamic about it.

People killing thieves can be dealt with. People who are fired up by religious zeal, are far more difficult to deal with.

Please tell this to police who failed to save the peoples who were killed on mere suspicion of being thieves............

[chacha_Ghalib]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

@Captain1

There is a reason that law is in place, because there are mullahs inciting people to 'defend Prophet's namoos'. If we didn't have this law mullahs would still create a mob and kill someone who was accused of blasphemy. In fact, this law could potentially save someone who was falsely accused of blasphemy.

That makes no sense. How many people were killed, before this law came into effect, because mullahs incited people to defend Prophet's namoos? Any how many have been killed since its inception? If the numbers have decreased, your argument stands.

This law and many others have given sanction to Mullahs' madness.

[Captain1]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

That makes no sense. How many people were killed, before this law came into effect, because mullahs incited people to defend Prophet's namoos? Any how many have been killed since its inception? If the numbers have decreased, your argument stands.

This law and many others have given sanction to Mullahs' madness.

Does this law state that a mullah can be the jury and the executioner in a blasphemy case? If not then your argument is invalid too.

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Please tell this to police who failed to save the peoples who were killed on mere suspicion of being thieves............

The point is, blasphemy law is just one of Pakistans evils... But its a BIG evil.

[diwana]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

The point is, blasphemy law is just one of Pakistans evils... But its a BIG evil.

Everyone here agrees the mob broke the law.

Why even talk about the law when the action of mob had nothing to do with the law?

And to Afat!

You specifically gave example of Quranic verse like so many other muslim haters do. Hence the answer had to be specific.

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Everyone here agrees the mob broke the law.

Why even talk about the law when the action of mob had nothing to do with the law?

And to Afat!

You specifically gave example of Quranic verse like so many other muslim haters do. Hence the answer had to be specific.

Because this Law is one that creates the environment under which such extremism can thrive. If Pakistan wants to become the normal tolerant society it might have once been, then laws like these have to be expelled from the books. Remember that fish rots from the head, which is where this law is promulgated and where the power tp repeal it resides.

And this is just the beginning. Next we should rid the country of all laws which can be used to discriminate against minorities.

[diwana]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Because this Law is one that creates the environment under which such extremism can thrive. .....

That is where the problem lies in your position. A vast majority of those who had the chance to go through the process of this law were not punished. Would you agree?

Again the discussion about this law is out of context.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Because this Law is one that creates the environment under which such extremism can thrive. If Pakistan wants to become the normal tolerant society it might have once been, then laws like these have to be expelled from the books. Remember that fish rots from the head, which is where this law is promulgated and where the power tp repeal it resides.

And this is just the beginning. Next we should rid the country of all laws which can be used to discriminate against minorities.

I don't agree with the notion that extremism has increased because of this law. How many qadiyanis specifically have been killed during the last 10 years and what's their proportion in terms of the total number of Pakistanis killed during the past 10 years? Many more attacks have taken place in mosques of Sunnis and Shias. A war is going on in the country for the past 10 years and that has polarized and militarized the society. Having said that I don't think that the state should discriminate against its people, but to label the problems that the minorities are facing these days on this law alone is not right.

[chaibiskut]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

The argument that “mobs kill, laws don’t” is a fallacy. There’s no denying the blasphemy clauses are institutional discrimination, as are the Hudood Ordinances.

A few quotes from : UNHCR | Refworld | USCIRF Annual Report 2012 - Countries of Particular Concern: Pakistan

Severe penalties for blasphemy and other activities deemed insulting to Islam were added to the penal code during the regime of General Zia-ul-Haq. Article 295, Section B, makes defiling the Qur’an punishable by life imprisonment. Under Section C of the same article, remarks found to be “derogatory” against the Prophet Mohammed carry the death penalty.

Has anyone read the actual blasphemy text. Death for causing verbal offense. Imprisonment over “innuendo” or “implication.” Seriously? Even if someone burns a Quran in their full senses, they shouldn’t be imprisoned or killed. This is what no one wants to say. The real issue is being obscured by the man’s compromised mental state and the mob. What if he was sane and he insulted a religious figure, offended someone’s religious sentiment, or burned a holy text? Would an offended mob suddenly be more rational in its motivation? Forget extrajudicial violence, would a court case be justified?

Blasphemy allegations, which are often false, have resulted in the lengthy detention of, and occasional violence against, Christians, Ahmadis, Hindus, other religious minorities, and members of the Muslim majority community. Reportedly, more cases are brought under these provisions against Muslims than any other faith group, although the law has a greater impact per capita on minority religious faiths. While no one has been executed under the blasphemy law, the law has created a climate of vigilantism that has resulted in societal actors killing accused individuals.

“Climate of vigilantism.” This is not a mob acting without institutional, legal, and social sanction. If religious bigotry is a pre-existing condition, what do you call introducing and protecting a law that encourages and validates the same?

Because the law requires neither proof of intent nor evidence to be presented after allegations are made, and includes no penalties for false allegations, blasphemy charges are commonly used to intimidate members of religious minorities or others with whom the accusers disagree or have business or other conflicts. The provisions also provide no clear guidance on what constitutes a violation, empowering the accuser and local officials to rely on their personal interpretations of Islam. Militants often pack courtrooms and publicly threaten violence if there is an acquittal. Lawyers who have refused to prosecute cases of alleged blasphemy or who defend those accused, as well as judges who issue acquittals, have been harassed, threatened, and even subjected to violence. The lack of procedural safeguards empowers accusers to use the laws to abuse religious freedom, carry out vendettas, or gain an advantage over others in land or business disputes or in other matters completely unrelated to blasphemy.

Institutional Discrimination. Look up the term if you’re still confused.

Among Pakistan’s religious minorities, Ahmadis are subject to the most severe legal restrictions and officially-sanctioned discrimination. As described above, egregious acts of violence have been perpetrated against Ahmadis and anti-Ahmadi laws have helped create a permissive climate for vigilante violence against the members of this community. Ahmadis, who may number between three and four million in Pakistan, are prevented by law from engaging in the full practice of their faith and may face criminal charges for a range of religious practices, including the use of religious terminology.

State-sanctioned incitement to violence against minorities. Distinction between favored and disfavored Muslims, between Muslims and non-Muslims. Wake up already. In the name of all that is humane and moral - or at least in the name of the God you speak so confidently on behalf of - don’t defend this abuse.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

Ghazi ilm din shaheed killed a Hindu on blasphemy (there were no blasphemy laws then) and then when he was hanged by the British government his burial procession was amongst the biggest in Lahore's history.

One of my aunts used to live in Wah cantt a small town near Islamabad, in her street one qadiyani family used to live, all the people of the area had good relations with them. The reason being none of them would discuss their religions with each other, anyways at some stage they built up their own house and shifted house. During shifting a hand made picture was dropped on the street which was really blasphemous (regarding the prophet) and it was quite offensive and shocking for everyone. They had invited people of the neighbourhood to their new house for dinner or something, but no one went there. End of story, no rioting mobs or something and the blasphemy law was there. The situation has deteriorated during the past 10 years and thats for everyone not only the minorities.

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

I don't agree with the notion that extremism has increased because of this law. How many qadiyanis specifically have been killed during the last 10 years and what's their proportion in terms of the total number of Pakistanis killed during the past 10 years? Many more attacks have taken place in mosques of Sunnis and Shias. A war is going on in the country for the past 10 years and that has polarized and militarized the society. Having said that I don't think that the state should discriminate against its people, but to label the problems that the minorities are facing these days on this law alone is not right.

No, its the culture of extremism that this law encourages. The state indulging in religion adds to the hyper religiosity of the nation as a whole, and this creates an environment under which extremists feels their actions are condoned by the state.

The country has been sliding towards extremism for decades. Its because the govt indulges in politics of religion.

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

@Ali_Syed

Ghazi ilm din shaheed killed a Hindu on blasphemy (there were no blasphemy laws then) and then when he was hanged by the British government his burial procession was amongst the biggest in Lahore's history.

One of my aunts used to live in Wah cantt a small town near Islamabad, in her street one qadiyani family used to live, all the people of the area had good relations with them. The reason being none of them would discuss their religions with each other, anyways at some stage they built up their own house and shifted house. During shifting a hand made picture was dropped on the street which was really blasphemous (regarding the prophet) and it was quite offensive and shocking for everyone. They had invited people of the neighbourhood to their new house for dinner or something, but no one went there. End of story, no rioting mobs or something and the blasphemy law was there. The situation has deteriorated during the past 10 years and thats for everyone not only the minorities.

If the Blasphemy law being on the books hasn't reduced murder due to blasphemy, As you claim that murder of alleged blasphemers has always occurred, both prior to and after this law, then why is it even on the books?

Then you mention your aunt, in which case mobs did not form and no one was murdered thankfuly. However, I fail to see the point. How do you explain the 1000 strong mob that killed in Bahawalpur despite this law? Or how do you explain the death of Salaman Taseer and Salaman Bhatti? What about the attack on the Ahmadis in Lahore in which nearly 100 people died?

Either this law is useless because it does not prevent murder, or it is there just for the sake of appearances lest someone think Pakistan isn't an "Islamic" Republic. If the law has no value, then throw it out.

At the very least, it hasn't helped anyone. All its done is add to the extremists environment of Pakistan.

Besides this, if it has saved people from death, it hasn't saved them from misery. How many people have been thrown in prison because of this law, how many people have been tried in a court? There have even been cases where people have been killed after being exonerated by the court.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

I have never denied that the society has been militarized during the past 10 years, you have still not answered my question in post 151. How many qadiyanis have been killed during the last 10 years and their proportion to the total number of Pakistanis killed. Extremism and this law have no connection, extremism has increased in most of the muslim world after the war on terror. Secondly I don't care if the government keeps this law or not, I have mentioned that before as well. If someone considers himself Muslim so be it, I dont think the state should decide that. And I still stand in my logic that striking down the law will have no effect, as not many people have been killed through this law in any case. Education, removal of polarization of some segments of the society could improve situation but that's a long process.

[Med911]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

@Ali_Syed

I have never denied that the society has been militarized during the past 10 years, you have still not answered my question in post 151. How many qadiyanis have been killed during the last 10 years and their proportion to the total number of Pakistanis killed. Extremism and this law have no connection, extremism has increased in most of the muslim world after the war on terror. Secondly I don't care if the government keeps this law or not, I have mentioned that before as well. If someone considers himself Muslim so be it, I dont think the state should decide that. And I still stand in my logic that striking down the law will have no effect, as not many people have been killed through this law in any case. Education, removal of polarization of some segments of the society could improve situation but that's a long process.

Its not the past 10 years, its the past 30 years. Ever since Zia began sending people for Jihad in Afghanistan... And Pakistan's shifts towards extremism has been ongoing since its birth.

I don't know, I don't have access to such stats, nor do i have the time to go hunting for them. If you have it, then please post it here.

And when did I say Ahmadis were the only victims of Pakistani extremists? The thing is that we naturally tend to support those who can least defend themselves. Ahmadis are the weakest among the minorities. Thats a fact. And they have been the victim far longer then ten years.

Extremism and this law do have connection. When your govt indulges in the politics of religion, it creates an atmosphere in which extremism can thrive. iF THE pak govt had never introduced such laws, and had stayed out of the business of religion, then the society would not have been encouraged to go down that path. A fish rots from the head.

Extremism is what started the "war on terror" to begin with.

The state condones extremism by indulging in discrimination itself. The constitution encourages people to discriminate and promotes extremism. Just read the UNHCR report that cHAIBISKUT.

Its a very simple point. if the Pak govt wants to wean the awam of off extremism and terrorism, they will need to stop creating the environment under which such extremism can thrive. All laws which can be used to discriminate and promote extremist ideology, i.e. the blasphemy law, need to be thrown out.

And FYI, many extremists are highly educated. Education is by no means a guarantee that people will not turn to extremism and terrorism.

And I agree with everything you say in general, however, unless the govt of Pak sets the right example, unless the govt of Pak itself stops indulging in discrimination and religious politics, you will not see society change either. Give the people education, end the polarization, but above all else, end govt sanction of religious discrimination and stop indulging in state sponsored religion. Keep your religion in your heart and your govt in your capital.

[diwana]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

@Ali_Syed

I have never denied that the society has been militarized during the past 10 years, you have still not answered my question in post 151. How many qadiyanis have been killed during the last 10 years and their proportion to the total number of Pakistanis killed. Extremism and this law have no connection, extremism has increased in most of the muslim world after the war on terror. Secondly I don't care if the government keeps this law or not, I have mentioned that before as well. If someone considers himself Muslim so be it, I dont think the state should decide that. And I still stand in my logic that striking down the law will have no effect, as not many people have been killed through this law in any case. Education, removal of polarization of some segments of the society could improve situation but that's a long process.

Yes, it is said in this thread before and is the solution.
Just a minor correction, no one has actually been executed so far, under this law.

[diwana]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

@chaibiskut

The argument that “mobs kill, laws don’t” is a fallacy. There’s no denying the blasphemy clauses are institutional discrimination, as are the Hudood Ordinances.

A few quotes from : UNHCR | Refworld | USCIRF Annual Report 2012 - Countries of Particular Concern: Pakistan

Has anyone read the actual blasphemy text. Death for causing verbal offense. Imprisonment over “innuendo” or “implication.” Seriously? Even if someone burns a Quran in their full senses, they shouldn’t be imprisoned or killed. This is what no one wants to say. The real issue is being obscured by the man’s compromised mental state and the mob. **What if he was sane and he insulted a religious figure, offended someone’s religious sentiment, or burned a holy text? **Would an offended mob suddenly be more rational in its motivation? Forget extrajudicial violence, would a court case be justified?

“Climate of vigilantism.” This is not a mob acting without institutional, legal, and social sanction. If religious bigotry is a pre-existing condition, what do you call introducing and protecting a law that encourages and validates the same?

Institutional Discrimination. Look up the term if you’re still confused.

State-sanctioned incitement to violence against minorities. Distinction between favored and disfavored Muslims, between Muslims and non-Muslims. Wake up already. In the name of all that is humane and moral - or at least in the name of the God you speak so confidently on behalf of - don’t defend this abuse.

I think you have no idea about the topic when you post in general sorry to say.

Forget about innuendo, even uttering voice in derogatory manner to vilify religious sentiment of someone is subject to punishment of various degrees in several countries all over the world (if tried and convicted). Not just Pakistan or muslim countries.

(Since in US there is first amendment to the constitution, there is no concept of blasphemy per se, but any harmful act towards any person due to color, race or religion is punishable)

Hence, blasphemous act is not considered acceptable in many countries and in Germany the punishment was given to a person for his ‘blasphemous’ act against Quran.

Next time get educated before posting.

You have not answered my question before for a reason, but I answered above for your enlightenment.

P.S. 295 penal code is from British days.

P.S.2 Again: Act of mob was outside the law.

[chaibiskut]

Re: Thousands-strong mob attacks police station, burns man to death for alleged blasp

I didn't answer your question? I also tend not to read your rambling posts.

Publicly vilifying an object of worship at the expense of public order is what most countries penalize. Fining people for offending religious sentiment is different from imprisoning them without due process. As long as we don't have the legal framework for 'due process,' the imprisonment clause ought to be done away with altogether. Not only is the law ambiguous, we don't have the means to implement it. What you've mistaken for a general comment is actually an insidious hint at my beliefs - I don't think any of this should be criminalized. Gasp.

We're on page 8 here and you're still at it ad nauseum. It was a random mob acting in a vacuum. Blame the mob, blame the mob, blame the mob. Since you're more educated than the rest of us, paste the text of the blasphemy clauses and deconstruct them for us. Then tell me how they're not discriminatory. You obviously know something the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan doesn't.

I'm aware the law is a British relic, what does that have to do with repealing or at least re-writing it.

You'll mention that hate crimes are punishable in the U.S., but you won't mention that destroying the bible is not illegal. You can't start a fire in public, but you can burn whatever you want in your bathroom tub. Want to congregate a mob in Pakistan? Start a rumor that you had a vague dream about your neighbor that mortally offended your religious sentiments. Then waste public resources and start a circus in the lower courts that will drag indefinitely because the judges and lawyers are complicit or don't have the cojones to stand up to religious groups. But of course, none of this has anything to do with institutionalized discrimination.