The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

A slightly dated article by one of Pakistans foremost writers on ethnicity, Nationality Feroz Ahmad (the reason i say dated is his comments about the power structure dynamic have changed..with Mohajirs havingreclaimed an ascendancy after a near 30 year decline)SANGAT
The different ethnic groups in Pakistan do not have an identical class composition. Nor do they have an equal, or even proportional, representation in the higher echelons of military and bureaucracy. Therefore, the various elements of Pakistan’s ruling class have a disproportionate representation of the various ethnic groups in society. This situation represents a case, not of cross cutting cleavages, but of overlapping of class and ethnicity to a large extent. Demographically, the Punjabis comprise the largest single ethnic group (48.2 per cent) in Pakistan’s population, followed by Pushtoons (13.1 percent), Sindhis (I 1.8 per cent), Siraikis (9.8 percent), Urdu-speaking (7.6 per cent), Baloch-Brauhis (4.2 per cent) and Hindko-speaking (2.4 per cent). No statistics by ethnic group are available for the civil service and military ranks. However, it is an accepted fact that the officers and the rank and file of the armed forces are mainly Punjabi and Pashtoons, the former generally believed to be 70 percent and the latter 25 to 30 percent. There are no Sindhis or Baloch officers in the armed forces. Similarly, in the senior civil bureaucracy, the Punjabis and Pushtoons have a disproportionately high representation, the Urdu-speaking, a one-time dominant fraction, have slipped but still maintain a proportionally large presence, the Sindhis, despite some recent appointments to high positions, still are under-represented and the Baloch, also under-represented, are too small a group to have any influence even if given a proportional share.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

That is an argument that you/LastOfTheDinosaurs brought in brought in not others, to basically disown or dismiss the long list of ethnic Pashtuns who have served with Executive power as Chiefs of the Army or Presidents. As I have demonstrated Pashtuns have had a far more disproporionate role in the power structure of Pakistan, compared to others, but do you hear others complaining? Then you/LastOfTheDinosaurs have gone onto dismiss or deny the powerful roles of my own ethnic group (Mohajirs) who have played (and continue to play) in the military-political structure of Pakistan, and done the same for powerful ethnic Baloch leaders of Pakistan like Leghari.

It seems as though you people just dimiss the powerful leaders of Pakistan be they Balochi, Kashmiri, Mohajir, Pashtun, or Sindhi as all tools of the Punjabi’s/Punjab. That is surely a lack of confidence in the abililities of these non-Punjabi people, and/or just a need to blame others for one’s own failures and shortcomings? I for one I’m proud of my people’s contribution to Pakistan, and I will always contiune to highlight it, and that of other Pakistani’s as well.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Federal jobs are good but they can only offer a tiny portion to the local economy. Running after federal or even state’s civil servants will be a foolish game. Under new global trends, federal or provincial clerk jobs will continue shrinking. Case in point the stupid demand of 1980 MQM against the 2% quota. That was the time when the federal jobs started getting replaced by the private jobs. And guess what, private jobs are in the hands of business people.

The real money is in the business, the manufacturing units, and the overall pro-business environment in a given area be it Karachi, Lahore, Peshawar, or even Miran Shah. Under represented groups must offer incentives, peace, and protection to business people. You will see the situation will improve dramatically.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Thanks Spock, somebody has to present the full facts, and not just one side. :slight_smile:

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

SB: pot calling the kettle black..simple questions, what do you think AT present is the ethnic breakup of Pakistans army(not formation commanders please..if i wanted a ethnic breakup of the corp commanders that would be a different question)? Does the ethnic breakup of the Army represent disproportionate representation of those ethnic groups in comparison to population? Do those same ethnic groups in the Army dominate the politics of the country? If the answer is yes to the last two questions..the groups which are under represented (or not represented at all) are the ultimate losers. As such whatever I said..in my first post was true and the rest of the disputes were people posting pics of generals to confuse the discussion.

Anti: I agree increased tax collection would obviously allow greater investment, however there are a few issues, Peshawar has no control over the FCR..that is under federal control, Faisal Bari in his article writes that in fact the overall investment climate in NWFP is fairly good...also the other requirement for investments to happen are ..one to have proper infrastructure..which again is in the hands of the feds, secondly the locational disadvantage issue could easily be solved by deregulationg power generation, by virtue of its nearness to production centres the costs of electricty would drop..giving NWFP based industries some benefit over the locational disadvantage they face..

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

I don’t see any bills passed in the Peshawar ** guaranteeing effective control ** in FATA and asking for Peshawar control. That would mean deploying Frontier police to replace FC, and bringing the political agents in Peshawar assembly.

I support deregulation as in “privatization” of power generation, transmission, and distribution. Simply replacing Feds with provincial stranglehold of electricity will not solve the problem.

Cheaper electricity in new global environment is not possible. Tarbela can not sell its power for 3 cents a unit when Guddu station down south is making 8 cents a unit. No way Jose! The new deregulated / privatized Tarbela or Warsak will simply charge 8 cents in Peshawar. If they can’t, the power will be sold in Faisalabad; transmission is cheap!

Please look at my post above. Private entities can easily secure $billion to build an airport (or roads or whatever infrastructure is needed to kick start a business: like water, phone, and sewage).

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Why don’t you tell us bring forward the facts to prove what the ethnic makeup of the Pakistani army is AT present i.e. August 2005? Actual figures not opinion pieces from lota’s or others alleging so and so. Anyone can make up a ball park figure and stick it in an article to suit one’s personal biases, but we rarely get a complete factual breakdown. The COAS and the Corp Commanders are the one’s who dictate the orders and exercise real power in the military over their subordinates, not your average fauji (however large their numbers or not), and as has been amply demonstrated they have been a long, long line of ethnic Mohajirs, Pashtuns, Persians, and well a few Punjabi’s for the last 50 years of Pakistan’s history. Just as there has been a long, long line of Balochi, Kashmiri, Mohajir, Pashtun, Sindhi, and the one or two Punjabi’s as executive i.e. powerful, political heads of Pakistan in the last 30 years. Those are the facts, visually demonstrated for all to see, and provide a suitable balance to previously one sided allegations against those (not so) dominanat Punjabi/Punjab lot.

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anti: The frontier assembly has passed several such resolutions about FATA..I'll find the links if you need reconfirmation. The deregulation issue I did mean liberalising it to private companies..there is already a Provincially run hydel company operating under extreme checks by WAPDA..it has always been able to offer consistently cheaper electricty..I can imagine if opened up private companies would be able to do the same..according to one estimate 40,000 mw of electrcity could be generated if that was done..

SB: And round and round we go..the questions should be fairly easy for you to answer..you seem knowledgable enough (you know that the majority of formation commanders are now Mohajir which is a fact i was not aware off) so I'll take your word for it..and I won't criticise you if someones more factual research is posted later on...so just answer the questions I asked and like I said if they are the same as my answers, our argument will be over.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Zakk, just bring forward the real facts and figures (not odd references in opinion pieces) to back up your claims about the overwhelming Punjabi/Punjab domiantion of the Army, and then we will judge (and believe). I have already brought foward actual and visual facts to disprove that our military chiefs and executive political rulers have been dispropritionately Punjabi/Punjab domianted. You see too often people can repeat the same thing a thousand times year after year and (some) people start believing it, but when challenged for the concrete facts, they seem always to be lacking.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Law and order in Fata escalated cost of NHA projects

By Rauf Klasra

Rising militancy and worsening law and order in tribal areas has led National Highway Authority (NHA) to pay an additional sum of Rs 1 billion to the Frontier Works Organization (FWO) to complete a multi-billion rupees road project in Fata, revealed official papers of ministry of communication to be laid down before the Senate committee on communication today (Monday). The documents show that the FWO has stated the law and order situation, problems in acquisition of land, and floods as justification to demand Rs 1 billion in addition to the already agreed cost of the project. As per agreement NHA was to give Rs 1.3 billion for the completion of the road project. But, now total cost of the project has been estimated at Rs 2.3 billion, thus one billion of rupees would be additionally charged by the FWO. The official papers said that the situation is so alarming in the tribal areas that both NHA and FWO were facing problem in land acquisition. Senator Kamil Ali Agha will preside over the meeting that would discuss a long agenda item pertaining to the performance of the NHA in different parts of the country.

Earlier, the NHA was asked to give details about its road projects, reasons behind delay in the execution of projects, shooting up of the total cost, agreement between the Daewoo and NHA, progress made regarding misspelled signboards on the highways, details of contracts awarded to different parties to construct roads, levy of toll on official vehicles with green number plates, details of installation of toll plazas on the national highways, details of plots and sites leased out on national highways and motorways for filling stations. Chairman NHA Major General Farrukh has been directed to appear before the members of the committee to explain the reasons behind many delays in the execution of development work on many important roads.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2005-daily/08-08-2005/main/main11.htm

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

The Punjabi’s or Punjab are not holding these people back.

North Nazimabad —the most literate town

North Nazimabad Town enjoys the reputation of being the most literate town of the country, as out of its 700,000 population more than 90 percent are educated and compared with other towns of Karachi it is well developed. In the early Sixties when Karachi was the capital of Pakistan, North Nazimabad was initially selected for the establishment of offices and residential area for federal government employees. On account of these two factors it is ranked as the most-planned town of Karachi. All thoroughfares and service roads of the town are designed in such a way that they allow movement of large volume of traffic without any interruption. Almost all roads are broad and running along them are parallel service roads that are also wide due to which in case of emergency or accident no traffic clogging is witnessed.

The North Nazimabad town, which stretches from Paposh Nagar up to Buffer Zone II at Nagin Chowrangi, has a total of 10 union councils. They are Paposh Nagar, Pahar Ganj, Khandu Goth, Hyderi, Sakhi Hasan, Farooq-e-Azam, Mustafabad, Shadman town, Buffer Zone-1 and Buffer Zone-11. The town is largely inhabited by Urdu-speaking people besides it also has a sizable number of people from other linguistic groups, including Bohris, Gujratis, Memons, Ghanchis, Balochis and Sindhis. The MQM, which commanded extensive popularity in the town, boycotted the 2001 local government elections and as a result the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) backed-Al-Khidmat group candidate, Fasihuddin Siddiqui, won the election for the post of nazim.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-8-2005_pg7_44

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Yet more good news for Balochistan.

‘Work on 72 small dams under way in Balochistan’
The provincial irrigation department said on Tuesday that the construction of new dams was likely to be completed by the end of the current fiscal year in 2006. Work is currently under way on 72 dams, according to Mumtaz Khan, chief engineer for North Irrigation. The new dams are being constructed in Turbat, Muslim Bagh, Loralai, Qila Saifullah, Zhob and other parts of the province. In the last few years, more than 236 delay action dams have been built across the province. “We have constructed small check dams in addition to developing forestation around the delay action dams to enhance their life and keep them secure from silting and soil erosion,” he said. These check dams will recharge underground water and serve as a source of potable water for the surrounding areas, according to Mr Mumtaz.

With the financial assistance of the federal government, Sabakzai Dam is being constructed in Zhob district. Once the dam is constructed, more than 12,000 acres of barren land will come under cultivation, Mr Mumtaz said. Wapda is executing the Sabakzai dam project, but when the dam is ready it will be handed over to the provincial irrigation department for maintenance, he said. Mr Mumtaz said a project worth Rs3.2 billion is being implemented to remodel and extend both the Kirthar and Pat Feeder canals. Work is also in progress on a 500-kilometre long Kachhi Canal that would upon completion irrigate about 700,000 acres of barren land in Nasirabad, Bolan, Jhal Magsi and Dera Bugti districts. He said the Mirani Dam project would be completed by December 2006. The dam will irrigate 30,000 acres of land and ensure supply of drinking water to Gwadar port city. The government will spend an additional Rs2 billion on a pumping station to ensure supply of water from Mirani dam to Gwadar city.

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/27/nat22.htm

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

So what is your point kaka? Your efforts to defend Punjab are welcome but try some better argument than using North Nazimabad (NN) locality.

This is the worst example to bring in this discussion with a people from smaller states (or provinces). Most of NN’s Urdu speaking residents were “imported” from UP, Bihar and Hyderabad under special quota of 12% in Federal jobs back then. The import process started with Liaqat and continued until 1955 way after the partition. Liaqat could have gotten away with the economic murder of Sindhis and nobody would have cared. After doing the ethnic cleansing of Karachi and Hyderabad, poor Liaqat stepped on Punjab’s domain i.e. police and army. This thing was the biggest crime and the result was the bullet through his skull.

Even when Liaqat was sent to heaven by Punjab mafia, the importation of Urdu speaking people continued where they would land the cushy jobs in federal offices and big semi-autonomous organizations like Railway. This went on while Sindhis were kept out of Urban Sindh. In the 50’s non-Urdu speaking (even Punjabis) could not rent let alone buy a house in NN or other “better” locations of Karachi.

Karachi University kept Sindhis out until well into 1980s. This is like Punjab University keeping out students from rural Punjab for good 45 years. Then Lahoris would turn around and blame poor guy from Sahiwal for not getting “educated”.

As I said earlier, Sindh didn’t get their share. However I seriously doubt they would have gotten anything from Baniya rule either. Worse yet, Nehurivian sho-shaw-lism (socialism) would have robbed Sindhis from their lands as well. You can well imagine a Sindh with no land and no jobs in the offices either. At least they have their lands right now.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Thanks but defending Punjab is not the point, it is about giving balance to a one-sided racial based argument presented by others. No doubt Sindhi’s have had a raw deal from a lot of people, most notably from their wadera’s as one can see in interior Sindh where millions of Urdu-speaking have never been settled. If they got rid of their feudals it would solve at least 50% of their problems overnight.

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What a senseless and ruthless remarks about a great man like Liaqat Ali Khan.
Its so sad. No justification of assasintion of a leader who gave so much to the nation. Have we lost our mind?
Long live Pakistan.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Much is said about the Urdu speaking ppl occupying cushy jobs in the early days of Pakistan history. There is a very logical answer to this allegation: Center of power in united India always rested in Dehli in times of the Mughals and British, thus the emphasis of Govt related jobs being found most in Dehli and its surrounding regions, which ofcourse was dominated by urdu speaking muslims. Since center was Dehli and Govt functionaries were residing there, schools, colleges ie urbanization was well above the country's averages. Simple facts such as these afforded the Urdu speaking muslims a certain advantage over the newly formed Pakistan territories which was dominated by agrarian, feudalistic, tribal socieities (West Pakistan). Muhajirs having experience working as Govt functionaries were the automatic choice add to that the fact that Muslims of All India Muslim League was not restricted to West and East, actually found considerabel support from the now Indian territory. Thus their academic and patriotic credentials afforded them the justification to run early days state of affairs.

One can criticize this argument as being one sided,I will not disagree cause the East Pakistan population (Bengalis) were probably equal to the Urdu speaking population in delivering the same results. Its unfortunate, but true that the Bengalis were deliberatly discriminated thus their alienation and separation.

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Generals Musa Khan, Yahya Khan and Iskander Mirza - all Persian Shia Muslims. Bhutto’s mother is Iranian as well. :slight_smile:

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

For those interested in learning more..feel free to read :slight_smile:

President General Pervez Musharraf has recently made bold comments on the National Finance Commission (NFC) Award, provincial autonomy and the Balochistan issues. He suggested that the NFC Award should divide the resources between the federal government and the federating units a on a 50:50 basis, and the concurrent list of the subjects in the constitution should be abolished to enhance provincial autonomy. He also outlined the measures the federal government was taking to resolve the current problem in Balochistan and declared that there would be no military action there. Pointing to the existence of “war lords” in Balochistan, he said that the government would ensure its writ there. He also admitted that the presidency was in indirect contact with Benazir Bhutto on political issues.

These statements reflect a positive and accommodating disposition. This also shows, once again, that when it comes to key and contentious policy issues the president rather than the prime minister calls the shots. This is a manifestation of the political reality. But it reflects poorly on the civilian political infrastructure established by Musharraf in October-November 2002. If we examine this against the backdrop of the president’s decision to hold on to the post of army chief, the inescapable conclusion is that he neither relies on the civilian institutions for his political survival nor lets them take the leading role with reference to key issue that have implications for the direction of the polity. The civilian government functions within a specified domain and has the responsibility for managing the day-to-day affairs, including the economic matters, and making input to the formulation of policy guidelines and political parameters by the presidency.

The president’s proposal that the NFC should settle on parity between the provinces and the federal government is an endorsement of the provinces’ demand. The issue has been pending since 2002 when the regular term of the 1997 Award expired. During 2003-4, the NFC held several meetings but the federal government and the provinces could not develop consensus on the formula for division of the federal divisible pool of revenue. The federal government wanted to keep more than 50 per cent with itself. It offered 45-47 percent to the provinces which was not acceptable to them. Now, after dragging its feet for almost a year, the federal government seems likely to accept the 50:50 formula because of the president’s endorsement. It may be pointed out that there was a time when the provinces used to get over 60 percent of the federal divisible pool of revenue. But then the federal government expanded its administrative empire and the provinces had to face the resource crunch.

The president has avoided talking about a more contentious issue pertaining to the NFC Award. It is the criterion for distribution of resources among the provinces. In the past, Pakistan adopted the population criterion. This favoured the most populous province — the Punjab. The smaller provinces have argued that population should not be the only basis for division of resources. They want other factors taken into account. Sindh wants revenue collection to be assigned some weight; Balochistan talks of the area and development needs and the NFWP highlights needs as well as the peculiar circumstances of a province. The Punjab is favourably disposed towards the continuation of the population formula. The provinces have to agree among themselves on the criteria and the federal government should accommodate that formula. It can be argued that population should not be the only basis for division of resources. Considerations like poverty, under-development and special circumstances should be given weight. Furthermore, the revenue collection powers of the provinces should be enhanced in order to reduce their dependence on the NFC Award and the federal government.

The president has favoured autonomy for the provinces but he presides over a highly centralised political and administrative system. The notion of the unity of command, as advocated by the president, negates provincial autonomy. At the operational level the provinces do not currently enjoy the autonomy promised to them in the constitution. The federal government needs to trim its size by returning the power and authority to the provinces over the subjects that do not belong to it. The president can order a review of the administrative bulge of the federal government to give credibility to his statement. This can be followed up by setting up a parliamentary committee to review the concurrent list for transferring most of its subjects to the provinces.

** The relationship between the federation and the federating units is not a zero-sum process. The transfer of some administrative and financial powers to the provinces does not weaken the federal government. Rather, it helps promote mutual trust and genuine partnership. What Pakistan needs is a change in the mindset of those who control power in Islamabad. **

Balochistan’s troubled situation is evidence of the federal government’s neglect of the concerns and fears of the aspirant political elite in that province who feel excluded from the far-reaching changes the federal government is making in the province. The federal government’s self-ascribed mission of development of Balochistan and the aura of self-righteousness need to be moderated by participatory imperatives and the perceptions of those who refuse to hitch on the official bandwagon.

** Balochistan’s provincial government and the assembly have little, if anything, to do with the mega development projects. It is therefore not surprising that most of those associated with the official circles are avoiding identification with the policies of the federal government or extending reluctant support. The growing alienation has enabled the younger and more vocal elements to overcome their ideological differences with the Baloch chieftains whose politico-economic agenda they may not share. It is a kind of “united front” situation vis-à-vis the federal government which has neutralised the president’s description of sardars as warlords. **

The outcome of the Balochistan situation depends on a several factors. How quickly the federal government adopts measures to accommodate the political elements who question its policies, is one. The on-going mega projects should be reviewed with the objective of improving economic opportunities for the local people. The land allotments/sales in the Gwadar area should be made transparent. An inquiry into this process should be conducted to inform the parliament as to who are the major beneficiaries of land development and real-estate business in Gwadar. Furthermore, justice should be seen is being done in the raped doctor’s case. High officials should not issue statements that create the impression of protecting somebody. DailyTimes

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Musa Khan was a khochi from Hazara…His son Hasan Musa used to work in PIA with my dad…They have very distinctive and prominent oriental features and are not persian from anywhere…They maybe persian speakers, but calling them ethnic persians is a stretch…

Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Ten years of Bhattu’s fascism plus another half a dozen by his daughter should have more then sufficed for the lost time…the quota system, recruitment of thousands of incompetent sindhi marroos across all gov’t and semi gov’t entities was one of the biggest step backwards in the history of Pakistan…