Lt. General Gul remained Commader in Chief just for one year(1971 to 1972) and was then replaced by General Tikka Khan. Gen. Kakar remained chief from 1993 to 1996.
Musharaf was appointed by Nawaz Sharif, superceding Gen. Ali Quli Khan, because he considered Musharaf to be less problamtic. Same was the case with Gen. Musa Khan, who was a humble without a strong political-ethnic base and very pliant and so acceptable to Field Marshal Ayub Khan.
Please also see "Friends not Masters" which Ayub Khan begins with a Punjabi verse.
Now how lame this logic is? As for I know, the forefathers of Nawaz Sharif migrated to East Punjab and then the Abah Jee along with other brothers migrated to Lahore to establish foundries and ultimately enter the political arena.
Ayub Khan was born to that Pastun Tarin tribe, unless you can find any sources to prove that he was not? Your racial exclusivity arguments cannot change that fact. Just to prove that I am sticking to the facts I would like to point out that General Gul Hassan Khan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gul_Hassan_Khan) was actually a Punjabi, not a Pashtun as you stated. Though, I am glad that you agree with more than 80% of what I have stated about the not so Punjab/Punjabi domination of the military-political structure of Pakistan.
LoD says that that Khalil-ur-Rehman family, owners of the Jang / News / Geo, the second richest industrial family in Pakistan are Punjabi, not Hyderabadi Mohajirs.
He also says that Ayub Khan - supreme ruler of Pakistan from 1958 to 1969 was a Punjabi, not Pashtun.
Maybe you can help him find sources that prove these claims?
Not only are your arguments absurd but also is your information faulted. General Gul Hassan was a Pashtun from Pabbi, Peshawar. For a proof of that read his autobiography, “Memoires of the Last Commander-in-Chief of Pakistan”. That is why I wonder whether your statement about Mir Khalil-u-Rahman is correct! The whole family of Mir is Punjab-based as to my knowledge.
Moreover, if it is not by cultural, linguistic, and group affinity and only by some distant ancestry, why are you hell-bent proving General Mirza Aslam Baig a Muhajir?
Do you know who Baigs are? They are Mughals (Central Asian Uzbaks). So Mirza Baig is not a Muhajir but an Uzbak. And what about Musharaf? He is Sayed from the Prophet’s line. He is therefore an Arab, not a Muhajir. Janjua probably were some Huns few centuries back. So he is also not a Punjabi.
So if we don’t take group feelings based on cultural, linguistic, and territorial affinities into account then where are Punjabis and where Muhajirs? Obviously, you arguments are u…ntenable.
There are number of people among Punjabis and Muhajirs claiming Pashtun descent but now with Muhajir or Punjabi identities and Punjabi and Muhajir political and cultural affiliations.
I have provided links to prove my points on both counts - click on the links. The rest of you post about Arabs, Huns and Uzbeks is just as amusing, in that it further disproves the Punjabi/Punjab domination argument. Gul Hassan was a Pashtun as well ?- one more in a long, lone line of non-Punjabi chiefs of the Pakistan Army? If you insist so, despite the link I have provided.
This is ridiculous.. Its is clear that Musharaf is a Mohajir from Delhi… But just to save face you go back over thousand years to show that he is in reality, AN ARAB!
Guess what, even im an Arab in that case!
This is about the current make up of Pakistan. And its clear that majority of our leaders have been non Punjabi…
If people of Non punjabi descent like Nawaz Sharif can benefit from invesments in Punjab, it only shows that punjabis are a welcoming bunch who ARENT prejudice towards outsiders. Otherwise, how could Nawaz Sharifs family have succeeded in Punjab? This in no way means that Punjabis are trying to dominate anyone.
One the contrary, it shows that Punjabis are open to non Punjabis..
A few corrections, Gul hassan Khan was a pashtun..but he was only in his post for a few months not a year.
There are two broad arguments here which need to be commented upon:
Ethnicity: There is a very distinctive difference between a tribal understanding of ethnicity and a sedentary one. All pashtuns trace their lineage from a tribal background, similar to Baluchis..whereas outsiders can marry into a tribe..they subsequently become a part of that thinking..so the components are tribe, language and ancestry. This contrasts with the thinking in sedentary settings. In Punjab people have come in from all areas, but if they speak Punjabi they are considered Punjabi..this defines the Punjabi identity. It is similar to the contrast between Iraqi Arab and Kurd..for an Arab anyone who speaks Arabic is an Arab..but their ethnic origins are another matter altogether..some even be off European ancestry..on the other hand when Kurds define themselves, they define themselves in strict terms of tribe, language and ethnic background.
This is well known throughout the world as a standard approach. So for punjabis to accept the Sharifs as Punjabi..is not unusual..as has been done. The argument about how Sharif favoured his own biradri is again a circular argument..ZAB favoured Larkana Sindhis..as is practice in Pakistan leadersl favour people from their own area first and then surronding areas second ..in the end it doesn't change the fact that ZAB is considered a Sindhi leader by non Sindhis..he is not called a larkana sindhi who did nothing for sind (although he maybe called so by other sindhis)..Nawaz Sharif effectively has campaigned as a Punjabi leader..he won the 1990 elections campaigning on the slogan jaag Punjabi jaag ..in 1997 he swept Punjab and even when he was targetted by Mush and the Faujis ..his party still swept Urban Punjab (lahore and Faisalabad). And is strongest in Punjab...unlike other political leaders his party has broken biradri voting..and won seats purely on ethnic Punjabi votes.
a bit of political science 101 for people , Pakistan is a federation ..the concept of a fderal theory is: an entity composed of territorially defined groups, each of which enjoys relatively high autonomy and which together, participate in an ordered and permanent way in the formation of the central entity's will."
Key features of a federal system are
1) autonomy,
2)division of powers between the centre and provinces,
3)the supremacy of constitution
4) provincial representation at the centre.
If you insist, I’ll add him onto the growing list of non-Punjabi military heads of Pakistan Army.
General Gul Hassan Khan was Chief of Army Staff, Pakistan. The general, was born in Rawalpindi, was educated at the Royal Indian Military College (now the Rashtriya Indian Military College), Dehra Dun…He was ousted as army chief on March 3, 1972 by Pakistani prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. He was allegedly hudled up in a car and taken to Lahore by road by Ghulam Mustafa Khar, a crony of Bhutto and a politician.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gul_Hasan)
Field Marshal Ayub Khan - Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army, 1958 - 1969 - Pashtun.
[thumb=H]Ayubkhan27192_5112974.JPG[/thumb]
General Musa Khan, Chief of Army Staff, 1958 - 1969. - Pashtun.
[thumb=H]MUSA27192_8907073.JPG[/thumb]
General Yahya Khan, Chief of Army Staff, 1969 - 1971. - Persian
[thumb=H]Yahyakhan27192_3182233.JPG[/thumb]
General Gul Hassan Khan, Chief of Army Staff, 1971 - 1972. - Pashtun
[thumb=H]GUL_Hassan_Khan27192_8507420.JPG[/thumb]
General Mirza Aslam Beg, Chief of Army Staff, 1988 - 1991. - Mohajir.
[thumb=H]ASLAM27192_3237348.JPG[/thumb]
General Wahid Kakar, Chief of Army Staff, 1993 - 1996. - Pashtun.
[thumb=H]WAHEED27192_5313265.JPG[/thumb]
General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff, 1998 - present. - Mohajir.
[thumb=H]General_Musharaf27192_9061564.JPG[/thumb]
SB: Since you switched the argument towards the exercise of power in the discussion on Presidents..(yet studiously did not do so when you used token examples like Balkh Mazari as an example of PMs)..I would argue that we should look at some of these Generals mentioned in reference to the power they exercised. As is well known Kakar is widely considered to be the weakest COAS in pakistans history and exercised very limmited power. Similarly Yahya Khan was very much part of a junta with limited powers of his own. The real power was in the formation commanders. The formation commanders reflect the make up of the Army.
This reminds me, I came across a nice little piece by Mushahid Hussain, General Secretary of the Pakistan Muslim League. Which is quite amusing in light of this discussion..as it uses terms like establishment etc:
Pervaiz Musharraf :newsline.com.pk
The establishment’s man with a difference:
A Muhajir who is culturally more a Punjabi albeit an English-medium one, a dictator coexisting with a critical press, notwithstanding the occasional authorised thrashing of dissident hacks in the inimitable style of the Punjab Police ‘phhanti’.
Zakk you are smart enough not to indulge in this discussion. Punjabis and Mohajirs do have power just because of their numbers in the nation. However Pushtoons do form an important third leg of the ruling elite.
The worst sufferers in Pakistan have been the Sindhis especially considering their loss of two important cities: Hyderabad and Karachi to Mohajirs. The blame obviously is placed on Punjabi, Mohajir, and Pushtoon (PMP) elite. The analysis will not be complete without some blame going to Sindhis as well. Yeah yeah I’ll be countered with the argument based on a rape; saying if a women gets raped on the road, should we try to place some blame on her? I mean she should not have gone in certain section of the city etc. But this may not be applicable to a large community such as Sindhis.
Sindhi land owners fully enjoyed their role in post-1947 era. However Sindhi academics got involved in leftie commie politics resulting in severe loss of their possible share in the national wealth.
You may be wondering the situation with Balochis. They didn’t fare too bad until recently. I’ll cover that topic in different post.
I have presented the facts on the many shifting arguments you have presented, and countered suitably. Here are examples of your shifting arguments:-
1) This is not about ethnic Punjabi's but about Punjab (province) domination (re Farooq Leghari and Nawaz Sharif) .
2) No, is actually about ethnic Punjabi domination, and it does not matter which province they live in (re Zia ul-Haq).
3) The non-Punjabi's like Jamali, Jatoi, Mazari don't count as they did not exercise any real power.
4) But when it came to Punjabi's like Fazal Elahi Chaudhury and Rafiq Tarrar, who also exercised no power (like Jamali et al) you touted them as examples of "Punjab/Punjabi domination".
I have challenged you with the actual historical facts, on all your various arguments, and each time it has been proven that the Punjab/Punjabi domination you people speak of is all personal opinions, and not actual realities. Neither have I been reduced to posting opinion articles from lota politicians who would will ingratiate themselves with any ruler of the day to protect their backs. :)
The majority of the 9 Corp Commanders of the Pakistan Army are also Urdu-speaking Mohajirs from Sindh, I am told - damn Punjab/Punjab domination huh? But I am sure someone will start going back a thousand years and declare them Arabs, Huns, Mongols and God knows what else.
anti..I made 2 simple points when I first posted in this thread, one that those nationalities/ethnic groups which have suffered the most over the last 60 years are without a doubt Balochis and Sindhis. My second point was always that there is an unfair distribution of resources in Pakistan. If i was turning my arguments into an ethnic one..I would be supporting Pashtuns and not Baloch and Sindhis (unfortunately i was attacked for being a pashtun by some people). My comments about the economic state of NWFP was simply because I have access to those facts..and i used it as a comparison tool..I even mentioned if that is the state of NWFP one can only imagine that of Baluchistan and Sind.
As far as my own ethnic group is concerned, it's position in Pakistan has declined, from being the second most influential group at one stage in the mid 50's and 60's to the third, the effects of 2 protracted Afghan wars on the area should not be discounted, the effects of all of these things have devastated the pashtuns.
My entire argument is based on..fairness..and I should add I have posted stats and articles from well respected sources for everything I have said..instead what has it turned into..Baloch suffer because its their tribal nature, Sindhis suffer because they are feudal, Seraikis suffer because of the landlords too, Pakhtuns suffer because they are tribal, Punjabis are at fault....then we have this silly argument about who is pashtun and who is a punjabi ( he didn't speak pakhtu but thats another issue)..Nawaz Sharif is a Kashmiri (he just spoke Punjabi and spent most of Pakistans budget on northern Punjab) ..we are also told..amusingly that leaders appointed for window dressing are examples of ethnic representation.
Actually incorrect on most counts..you have made repeated factual inaccuracies, everything from Gul Hasan Khan to COAS posts which did not exist, throwing in the odd general from another ethnic group in as a pic does not reflect much of the argument (as I have always said Punjab dominates..which is different from having total control) . I am willing to accept one single line of argument if you wish..if you want real power we can go into a discussion on real power, which means examples like Jamali would be dropped, similarly it would mean dropping names like Kakar, Gul hasan and others from the mix as examples. If you would prefer to look at in purely length of time ..then I agree to that or would you prefer number of leaders..whichever way you wish feel free to stick to one line. the argument os an unjust system which disproportinately benefits some more than others (and has effected two ethnic groups in the extreme Baloch and SIndhi) has already been argued in Shahid Kardars article as well as the piece on district wise HDI indicators..these facts remain unchallenged..
Decline of Pushtoon position is more because of them being stagnant while other areas surge ahead. This is due to many factors. Only one of those factors is the Afghan trouble and onslaught of Pushtoon Refugees.
The most important factor in Pushtoon stagnation (and hence decline) is the failure of Peshawar to repeal the draconian FCR. Everyone from Malakand to Noshehra and Pindi to Karachi has kept the zoo alive what we called FATA. These people have been denied every right possible in the name of “preserving traditions”. Fazle Haq brought electricity to these dilapidated places and yet denied them the rights of being equal to the people of Peshawar.
FATA traditions mixed with Pushtoons’ consistent failure to create pro-business environment has made the stagnation possible. One of the stupidest example is the loot and theft in the 1980’s Malakand motorcycle factory (I believe Kawasaki) forcing the owners back to Punjab.
I visit Tribal areas only because I have influential friends. No ordinary businessman carrying investment money can in his right mind venture into the FATA zoo for fear of his life. Even WAPDA officials have to hire “Budraga” for their protection.
With this anti-business environment, there is no hope for further development in the Pushtoon lands and the area will continue suffering from stagnation.
This is typical Marxist set of thoughts propounded by nationalists of every hue and color including but not limited to: Baluchis, Mohajirs, and sections of Pushtoons. Their whole music stops at NFC award and quota in Fedral jobs.
Man the NFC money is pittance considering Pakistan’s overall eonomy (my guesstimate is $40-$50 billion a year in both black and white money). NFC is a commie concept of taking tax money from all the areas, mixing it up, taking a federal cut, and then sending it back to areas based on their population. The total of this NFC award hardly reaches $5 billion a year.
The real wealth my friend is never with the federal government. It is in the pockets of the business community. If they feel safe, they part with the money, run it through local economy and make more money. MQM made Karachi unsafe, and lost the business money to Lahore and Islamabad. Several of my friends brought their businesses to Lahore when things got really hot in Karachi. If Lahoris ever create lawlessness and make the city unsafe, the same money will go elsewhere.
So if anyone wants to develop a section of NWFP, Balochistan, or Sindh, they must part with commie concepts of dependency and begging the feds. Make sure the non-local businessman can carry the money safely and you will see airports, roads, rails etc. being built with private money.
Example in this case is the airport in Sialkot where business community cleaned up the city and now putting $billions in the airport.
