I think Zaks compaint is that despite all the many non Punjabi leaders, these same leaders still pandered to Punjabi establishment at the expense of other provinces. The Punjabi establishment whatever thats is, and which he (Zak) cant name, apparently runs all of Pakistan. Its like a shadow group of Punjabis who pull all the strings behind the scenes. You cant even piss in Pakistan before this hidden society nods it punjabi head REGARDLESS of who is the prime minister..
I love the way this is being argued..I am supposed to accept Leghari as Pashtun-Baloch, Mazari as Baloch, Nawaz Sharif Kashmiri (the inventer of the election slogan jaag Punjabi jaag)..when all are domiciled citizens of Punjab? And in the same breath I am supposed to seriously consider Junejo, Jamali, Mazari, Jatoi as people who exercised authority..!!! I can’t even think of arguing with such a bizzare sense of logic to justify severe power imbalances..feel free to believe all of that if you want though…
PP: To answer your question, Pakistans establishment has been defined quite well by American writer Stephen Cohen ..he recently wrote about it in his book the idea of Pakistan:
*Cohen calls this establishment a “moderate oligarchy” and defines it as “an informal political system that [ties] together the senior ranks of the military, the civil service, key members of the judiciary, and other elites.” Membership in this oligarchy, Cohen contends, requires adherence to a common set of beliefs: that India must be countered at every turn; that nuclear weapons have endowed Pakistan with security and status; that the fight for Kashmir is unfinished business from the time of partition; that large-scale social reforms such as land redistribution are unacceptable; that the uneducated and illiterate masses deserve only contempt; that vociferous Muslim nationalism is desirable but true Islamism is not. Underlying these “core principles,” one might add, is a willingness to serve power at any cost. *
No actually Sir, in the first post I said if you want to look at province-wise, then we have those people including Zia. I never said anywhere he was a non-Punjabi, unless you can show us? Go check my post again. It was only in my second post, that I constrasted by looking at ethnicity, because in this thread you have veered from saying this is not about Punjabi's but Punjab, and then back to saying it is about Punjabi's now. So I fail to find what you think is amusing?
I think people who are saying they are championing the rights of the smaller provinces, cannot make up their minds whether they are against Punjab (province) domination or Punjabi (ethnic) domination, as they have said each at separate times, and then changed their stances constantly.
it's fudging stats..you mention Junejo, Mazari, jatoi and then say they had a share in governance..when they did not..you also don't use the term seriaki which i think is wrong..as far as your ethnic versus province arguments go..I will correct my response ..I missed your reply..
Let me add some more by the way:
Human Development Indicators in the Provinces according to the UN Pakistan (link available if needed)
In the Top 10 we have: (6/10 in Punjab, 2/10 in NWFP, 1/10 in Baluchistan and 1/10 in Sind)
Oh right here is another reference from Stephen Cohens book (link available if needed)..these are solely his words:
"The focal point of Punjabi domination was and remains the army. Seventy-five per cent of the army is drawn from three Punjab districts (Rawalpindi, Jhelum, and Campbellpur) and two adjacent districts in the NWFP (Kohat and Mardan). These districts contain only nine per cent of Pakistan's male population. The officer corps is drawn from a wider, more urban base, but is still predominately Punjabi, often the sons of junior commissioned officers. Pakistan's air force and navy are drawn from a much wider base."
It is stating that facts. They were all non-Punjabi Prime Ministers of Pakistan were they not, and had more say than millions of their ethnic kinfolk, even if limited? But you cannot argue that the likes of Ghulam Ishaq Khan, an undisputed Pashtun; Farooq Leghari, head of a numerically/geographically strong Baloch tribe (and Pashtun mother); and General Pervez Musharraf, a Mohajir who between them have ruled Pakistan as Executive Presidents for 15 of the last 17 years had no say in the governance of Pakistan? Many would say they had to much say!, for obvious constitutional reasons.
Actually I did not start using the ethnic argument..you started it in your post about non Punjabi generals…I was correcting mistakes in your arguments..you included British C in C’s ..added in Ehsan ul Haq who is not COAS and who will retire as JCS..which is like saying i should post the pictures of all the generals from Punjab..I really can’t go through every picture..it would take pages
…also pakpatriot from his very early posts on thisn topic has been using ethnic terms..the reasoning used goes like this: you pathans..are backward..it’s the Baluchis fault they have no gas..they should complain but you don’t hence deserve what they get..it seems ethnic bashing is only ok for you when some say so and not others ..luckily there are patriots like me around who expose those who wish to promote problems in Pakistan through spreading injustice and untruths
your argument about Junejo, jamali and the others is a total joke..those people were chosen because they had no power and specifically as window dressing .
There was only one ruler during zias time and that was Zia, similarly there is only one ruler during Mushys time and that is Mush..they wield absolute power and that is a fact which is understood by anyone in the know.
I concede Ghulam Ishaq Khan 4 years out of the last 32 comes out at quite a low percentage..I think mentioning legharis mother in the story is kind of sad..he is 50% Pashtun so he is Pashtun…using that argument is just silly..many Mohajirs claim Pathan descent..as so many Punjabis..should I add them in as people who care about my province on the basis of their maternal lineage? In fact out of 32 years we have had the following presidents, ZA Bhutto for 1 year approx, Chaudhry Fazl Elahi (5 years), Zia ul haq (11 years), ghulam Ishaq Khan (4 years)farooq Leghari ( 4 years) , Rafiq Tarrar 2 years, Pervaiz Musharraf 5 years plus) So in total we have a breakdown which goes like this (I’ll do it ethnic wise for this specific argument sake )
Province Wise Out of 32
Punjabi 22 or 66%
Seriaki 4 (12%)
Pashtun 4 12%
Mohajir 5 15%+
Sindhi 1 3%
So as again for the millionth time as I said..and factually proven..disproportionate representation..
I have made no disparaging comments about Balochi’s or Pathans, or any ethnic group for that fact, nor do I support anyone saying such things as well. Neither do I think you are less of a patriot than others - too often those who do work to highlight shortcomings in one’s homeland, as well the positives are the greater patriots. If you read my posts I have said throughout that minority groups should spend as much time touting what they have contributed to Pakistan, as well fight for their due rights. Why should we not know about they have achieved as well - maybe it will help others see them in a more open/compromising light? I have some valid contributions that I want to make in this regard, but people just want to bash each other’s ethnicities and mock each other’s posts, rather than interact sensibly.
Again I did reply both times in response to other comments..I never initiated an argument on ethnic grounds..but I have been attacked for being Pashtun.
To your other comments..they are all well and good..but in the end there can be no solution to the problem ..if there is no acceptance of the problem in the first place. Living in denial is not the solution..the problem can only be resolved in Islamabad ..where all the power is..it's a simple offer..if people want Pakistan to survive and prosper they should tell everyone in Islamabad ..to give the provinces including punjab..proper autonomy within Pakistan and allow a proper federal system to function in Islamabad which means every provinces representatives gets represented and empowered. If that was done..you would see all the ethnic bashin, anger and hate disappear the day after.
The creation of Pakistan has confirmed that 'Ethncism & culture' is more important than 'Religion'.
Punjabi's in India (Hindus & Sikhs) have more in common with the Punjabi's in Pakistan.
Language, food, fork songs & festivals, history, looks, skin colour, warrior mentality etc.
The same goes for Biharis, Bengalis, Gujratis, sindis etc.
It will not be long when the errors of the partition will be swept under the carpet and SAARC will be one common land mass, comprising India & Pakistan initially, with open borders, one currency, students joining common universities, free trade etc
I don’t know if I have converted the figures correctly?
The Federal government presently gives NWFP about $100 million (Rs6 billion) out of the Hydel profits annually? Ok.
It has decided to treble that to $300 million (Rs18 billion) from now. Good.
But what does it mean by the $5.87 billion (Rs345 billion) dues? Is that HUGE figure what the Centre owes NWFP from previous years?
NWFP to get Rs18 billion annual profit: Hydropower generation
Bureau Report
PESHAWAR, July 31: The NWFP government will get Rs18 billion annually from the federal government as net hydro-electric profit instead of Rs6 billion, besides the dues of Rs345 billion. Chief Minister Akram Khan Durrani told delegations from various districts at the Frontier House that the provincial government had made significant progress in getting the profit. According to an official statement issued here on Sunday: The chief minister said: “We would soon be able to get Rs18 billion annually in net hydel profit instead of Rs6 billion.” He said the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal government had announced the first provincial industrial policy, which had been welcomed by the Sarhad Chamber of Commerce and Industry and other business organizations. Mr Durrani said the provincial government had also introduced an agricultural policy aimed at promoting farming and giving relief to landowners and farmers. He said that the employees of livestock and poultry farms would get interest-free loans after the province received its dues from the federal government.
He assured the delegations that the provincial government would make efforts to check rigging in the local government elections. He said all measures would be adopted to ensure transparency and women’s participation in the elections. About flood control measures, Mr Durrani said the provincial government was planning to construct spurs on both sides of Kabul river from Warsak to Nowshera. The secretary irrigation department had been directed to prepare a comprehensive scheme so that the floods could be tackled in future, he said. The chief minister said he had appealed to the Pakistani community during his visit to the United States to help the flood affected people and needy medical and engineering students. The government would open an account in the Bank of Khyber and raise funds of Rs1 billion for the purpose, he said. He said the provincial government would form a committee for supervising and providing funds to deserving students. The delegations apprised the chief minister of the situation in the flood-hit areas and relief activities.
Here is the excerpt from Stephen Cohen's book Pakistan Army, Ed. 2nd, published 1998. (page 45)
"The emphasis on the Punjab in Pakistan has also been justified in strategic terms. Officers attending Staff College (Queta) are taught in their geopolitics course that every country has a core area, which contains the strategic centers of population, political authority, and the basic senews of economic life, "the military loss of which would normally result in the collapse of n...ational resistence".** Of course if Pakistan has any "core area" it is the Punjab and the other three provinces constitute the invasion routes."** The logic is similar to that of Ayub Khan's declaration that East Pakistan could be defended by the maintenance of strong forces in West Pakistan. No ethnic, regional, or cultural group likes to be told that it is strategically second-rate, and the bitterness of Sindhis and Baluchis today towards army's stress on the importance of the Punjab of that of the Bangalis in mid-sixties.
There is now some awareness of the dangers of an unrepresentative army. A pre-dominantly Punjabi army is particularly sensitive to political awareness in the Punjab itself, yet large numbers of Baluch, or Sindhis would eventually mean a better-trained and disciplined population in two provinces with separatist sentiment, and the memory of East Bangal remains. However, there is still Punjabi resistence to recruiting other ranks (and officers?) from the so-called non-martial regions:"
On the preceding page i.e. page 44, this author, Cohen, mentions that:
"With the departure of the Bangalis, all regular units of the Pakistan Army are now integrated in that they are supposed to contain a fixed ratio of Pakistanis from several regions. The Air Force, Navy, and some scout or frontier-guard units have different patterns of recruitment. Each of the four major infantry regiments (Punjab, Baluch, Frontier Force, and Sindh) recruit on a national basis through a central system of recruiting officers. Hoever, because of the large number of Punjabis, some units (even in the Baluch Regiment) have no Baluchis and very few Pashtuns or Sindhis. The problem is further complicated in that quota are by region not ethnic group".
Page 47:
"To my knowledge, no one has suggested conscription to increase representativeness. Most officers thus are willing to accept the present situation for lack of practical economic alternative.
One final comment on representativeness is appropriate. As in the case of Bangali troops before 1971, there is an uneasy undercurrent in discussion of the martial qualities or Sindhis in Pakistan. If ordinary citizens, farmers, and peasants from these regions don't make good soldiers-or if they are not interested in participating in the defense of the country as soldiers-what does this imply about their loyalty to the state of Pakistan and about the loyalties and officers-like qualities of Baluchis and Sindhis who join officer corps? To put this another way, what lesson is to be drawn by such groups in the face of Punjabi dominance? No less a figure than a former chief justice of Pakistan raised the issue in a lead article in the professional journal of army. Rehman reminds his reader that the main culprits in the corruption that lead to the disintegration of Pakistan were invariably Punjabis, and that "this gave rise to a feeling of Punjab domination which in its turn propelled into prominence regionalistic and parochial aspirations".
^ Punjabi resistance to recruiting other ranks (and officers?). Really? Take a look at the not so Punjabi Chiefs of the Army since 1988.
General Mirza Aslam Beg, Chief of Army Staff, 1988 - 1991. - Mohajir.
[thumb=H]ASLAM27192_3237348.JPG[/thumb]
General Wahid Kakar, Chief of Army Staff, 1993 - 1996. - Pashtun.
[thumb=H]WAHEED27192_5313265.JPG[/thumb]
General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff, 1998 - present. - Mohajir.
[thumb=H]General_Musharaf27192_9061564.JPG[/thumb]
Mohajirs - 53%.
Punjabi's - 29%.
Pashtuns - 18%.
Also check out the ethnicities of the present 9 Corp Commanders of the Pakistan Army as well, and you will see that match the above breakdown as well. You and Cohen are living very much in the past.
Then again you also falsely claimed that the owners of the Jang /News /Geo were Punjabi's when everybody with a bit of their own knowledge knows they are Mohajirs, who hail from Hyderabad-Deccan. Did you get that out of a book by the American Jew Cohen as well?
Hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars has/is being spent on the Gwadur port, the Makran Highway, the extension of the railway system, and the overall infrastructure in Balochistan. That is a level of investment in the province never see in Pakistan’s entire history, hence imbalances (actual or imagined) are being corrected.
I can’t even think of arguing with such a bizzare sense of logic to justify severe power imbalances..feel free to believe all of that if you want though…