The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!

The Pakistan Railways have been a loss making entity for quite some time, I doubt they would sht down any profitable portion of their service due to nothing more then some prejudice they harbor towards the Pathans. Another point that should be noted was that no new railway line have been started in Punjab, infact the old ones are still plying along. A
Second, about the highway. All I see is a bunch of ingrates who arent happy with what they have. We already know that traffic though Punjab all the way to Karachi is heavier and thus we need a highway to connect those places. Compare this to the traffic in NWFP! Most of the traffic from there probably goes inot Punjab, so obviously we need a highway connecting Peshawar to Punjab. Its no ones fault that the distance from Peshawar to Islamabad is shorter then the distance from Lahore to Islamabad... You should be satisfied with the fact that they are making a Highway despite their already being one of reasonable quality in the area.. But no, you have to poo poo even that beacause its to short for your taste.. All I can say is grow up!
And yes, Pakistani govt must think of profit, and yes they do higher private contractors... Why is there no huge new Peshawar airport? Because there is no air traffic in Peshawar... Even Pathans use the Islamabad airport.. So a new Airport would be a waste of time and money. Why is their better roads connecting Karachi, Islamabad and Lahore? Becuase given the limited resources, the govt chooses to finance projects that have practical value and that can generate profit or recoup the losses... You wouldnt get that in NWFP where there isnt as much traffic... Although traffic does pass into NWFP from the South and thus they have built the extension of the M1 into Peshawar. The govt never does anything that doesnt genrate or promicse to recoup losses. If you want a project that is done just for the sake of doing it, then you would do it through an NGO or a private loan etc.

I still dont count FATA in this because they are out of control and they will have to be your responsibilty. An area that doesnt recognize the govt cant expect to get the attention they deserve. The are your responsibilty, dont blame Punjab for the backwards portions of your society no offense.
And I agree that NWFP should get more electrical lines, that is something that has to be done pronto.. But as far as Punjab useing more electrisity I think its only fair considering most of the industry is on the Western side of Pakistan.
And no one thinks the NWFP is really safe for investment except Pathans... And even they dont invest there..
The fact is that invesment is stifled when people see fantics running around ripping posters and billborads down. Investment is related to you MMA govt.
Who would want to invest in a province where the Religous clerics are the ruleing power? I wouldnt neither would any other investor.
MMA is completely relevant here.
And yes people are getting incentives.. But the NWFP will only truly shine when they become more wecoming to investor and Afghanistan starts to pick up again. Otherwise, it will have to wait for Punjab and Sindh to develop since these two regions are Pakisans engines of growth.
And exactly what sort of incentives are you expecting by the way? The Provincial govt isnt a complete lame duck either, they can pressure the govt to give more incentives (the govt has already given many incentives all across Pakistan and yet no new invesment has come) or they can get of their mullah butts and do something themselves instead of wasting time with stupid laws like Hasba...

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the rest of this argument is circular...you accept Punjab is the majority province..you accept it dominates because of it's representation in the Army..(which you think it deserves by virtuee of better education and wealth)..you accept NWFP and Baluchistan have been unjustly treated..and yet at the same time..you don't accept the fact that Punjab has a major role in both provinces plight? To me this is a pointless argument..you say the NFC is flawed..autonomy should be given..but you think the people of the provinces are to blame for not having any autonomy. And yet it's nobodies fault..? Which Pashtun or Baloch can give them selves rights which have so obviously been taken from them? Only those who have taken their rights can return them...and those people sit in Islamabad..who again by virtue of it's domination of the army, it's majority population size and as you say it's education are by and large Punjabi..overwhelmingly..with quite a few Mohajirs and the odd pashtun and Sindhi thrown in for good measure.

-------------> Time Pass forever with Anwaar Qureshi :~)
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The not so Punjabi military chiefs of the Pakistan Army.

General Sir Frank Messervy, Chief of Army Staff, 1947 - 1948.
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General Sir Douglas David Gracey, Chief of Army Staff, 1948 - 1951
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Ayub Khan, Field Marshal, 1958 - 1969.
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General Musa Khan, Chief of Army Staff, 1958 - 1969.
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General Yahya Khan, Chief of Army Staff, 1969 - 1971.
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General Mirza Aslam Beg, Chief of Army Staff, 1988 - 1991.
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General Wahid Kakar, Chief of Army Staff, 1993 - 1996.
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General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff, 1998 - present.
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It seems as if we are pointing fingers. All people in Pakistan are now Pakistanis. They are
Sindhis, Punjabis, Muhajirs or whatever after they are Pakistanis. This should be the approach for all of us. Once this is clear then we can have further discussion.
It does appear that Punjab by virtue of its population takes most of the country's revenue
and still Punjab does not produce majority of the income. I will try to find actual numbers which I came across during my search. Karachi produces/Sind produces most of revenue but expenses are done outside Karachi. We all know that East Pakistan revenue was spent in building Islamabad. We took poor people money (PutSun Makers) and made a city in west area.
I agree that an average Punjabi does not see the money but average Punjabi does see better Police protection and gov. services etc. than anyone else. Police is relatively more brutal in Karachi or other areas then lets say in Lahore for obvious reasons.

In the end I think while we have problems, we are still better off having Pakistan and these are not issues which cannot be resolved.
Long Live Pakistan.

Post Your Party outfits
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This is an apologetic argument. Imagine natural gas from Baluchistan running industries in Punjab and generating j…ob opportunity for the common man of Punjab not to mention boosting skill and infrastructural developmen and availability of cheaper industrial goods to local consumers.

The inequalities are too evident in the system of Pakistan to be bruched aside by these petty excuses.

Look at the defense budget devoured by an Army that is pre-dominantly Punjabi. A major portion of this defense budget is used to help them maintain a luxurious life-style.

Why is it that agriculture in Pakistan is provincial suject but the rest else federal?

This may be your perception but when a Baluchi does all the calculations, he in the end concludes that he is not better off in Pakistan. Until the system is revamped by reforming the army by broadening its ethnic base and granting maximum autonomy to provinces with the center left only with defense, communication, currency, and foreign affairs, the perception of the smaller nationalities as to be loosers in Pakistan will not change. Skies are the limit.
Long Live Pakistan.

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if only this thread wasnt so contradictory i’ll rate it as the most informative one on GS :teary1:

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I think this is not correct. In the early years after the death of Mohammad Ali Jannah and the ascendance of Liaqat Ali Khan to power, relations between Punjabis and Muhajirs deteriorated because Punjabis blamed Liaqat Ali Khan of being pro-Muhajir and anti-Punjabi. Nawa-i-Waqt, the newspaper from Punjab ran a campaign to vilify Liaqat Ali Khan. A number of political historians like Zahid Choudri and Alan MacGrith blame the assasination of Liaqat Ali Khan in 1951 on Punjabi bureaucrats, especially on Malik Ghulam Mohammad, Mushtaq Ahmad Gormani, etc.

After 1951, relations between Punjabis and Muhajirs significantly improved. Through one unit they were able to balance Bangalis numeric strength. Were Bangalis allied with Punjabis, how could One Unit, a scheme to nullify Bangali majority, have been passed?

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Probably, Liaqat Ali was aware of the disproportionate power of Punjab in bureaucracy and was in the process of taking measures to balance it politically. That infuriorated Punjab.

Although, Bangalis at that time had the majority but this was rather Punjab that considered itself the bastion of Pakistaniyat.

This can be well-gauged from a statement issued by Aziz Hindi, a leader of an organization Tanzeemi-i-Zarbi Islam Lahore, and published prominantly in Nawa-i-Waqt, representative news papers of Punjabi chauvinists, on May 31, 1951.

"I categorically state that only the blood of the brave men of Punjab is a guarantee for the freedom and stability of Pakistan. Punjab is destined to play the most important and historical role in the growth and evolution of Pakistan. Therefore, if Punjab doesn't have a major say and share in the central government, that will be harmful for the present as well as future of Pakistan. It wouldn't be an overstatement to call Punjab as the Prussia of Pakistan. Punjab has the same importance in Pakistab as Prussia in Germany"

It should be remembered that bulk of German armed forces before WW II came from Prussia.

Interestingly, Bangalis being a majority, never aspired a Prussian role for themselves.

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According to Zahid Choudri:

"The animosity between the feudal attitude of Liaqat Ali Khan and the chauvinism of the rising middle classes of Punjab was so intense that Muhajirs of Sindh and Karachi left no stone unturned to give him the eternal labels of "Qauid-i-Millat" and "Shaheed-i-Millat". But Punjabi chauvinists, on the other hand, didn't spare him until during the reign of Khwaja Nazim-u-din and afterwards, when Punjabis and Muhajirs formed an alliance against Bangalis, Sindhis, Baluchis, and Pashtuns".

Liaqat Ali Khan was killed in 1951 in Rawalpindi. Before assasination, he had decided to send Ghulam Mohammad on retirement and sake Mushtaq Ahmad Gormani and Khwaja Shahabuddin, the governer NWFP. He was going to appoint Saradar Abd-u-Rab Nishtar as Vice Prime Minister and Nawab Imail Khan, a Muhajir noble from UP, as the governer of Punjab in place of Sardar Abd-u-Rab Nishtar. He also wanted to make Hussain Shaheed Surharwardi, a Bangali, a minister. Probably, this was too much to bear for the leaders of Punjab.

At the time of assasination, Malik Ghulam Mohammad, Mushtaq Ahmad Gormani, Khwaja Shahab-u-Din, Choudri Zafarullah Khan, Sardar Bahadar Khan, and Khan Abdul Qayum Khan had gathered in Rawalpindi. After the assasination, a closed door meeting was held among these people to which Sardar Abd-u-Rab Nishtar was not allowed. In that meeting, Ghulam Mohammad was decided to be the governer general and Khwaja Nizamuddin, the prime minister.

This means the alliance against Bangalis came into effect after the death of Liaqat Ali Khan.

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Prussia was the dominant state among the other German states before the unification of Germany. And it had by force integrated other German states into one Germany.

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Another non-Punjabi general.

General Ehsanul Haq - Chairman, Joint Chief of Staff Committee, 2004 - present.
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I dont think its is the fault of the Punjabis that they are the majority in the Army..
I said that Punjabis are more numerous in trained man power, (not better trained) and thus they are able to find jobs not in army but in technical fields etc. This is not the fault of Punjab, you simply hire where the man power is. Thus you cant blame them for having a bigger pool of trained manpower.
But I dont accpet that Punjab is the reason for the screwed up aspects of the other provinces. Punjab is only getting more money and better infrastructure due to its higher Industrail output.
I do agree that the other two provinces need to be helped in catching up, but I dont see how that possible when no one is willing t invest and the provinces themselves have such bad reputations.
I do think that the govt is doing all it can to help the two provinces, with projects like Gawadar port. I also think that there are better times ahead for NWFP with improving situation in Afghanistan.
Autonomy should be given and NFC should be changed. No ones fault. Unlike you im not laying the blame on Punjab… I am saying the people of the province must make themselves heard so that the govt understand the urgency of these two things, but at present I dont see anyone doing anything. The only one making hue and cry about it is you! It should be the responsibilty of your provincial govt to do somthing, and yet all the do is pass idiotic laws like the Hasba bill. With people like them voted into office, I wonder how dedicated Pathans are to you cause!
And no one took any rights from Pasthuns and Balochis, they have as many rights as the people of Punjab. In fact, there are many Punjabis who have lost their rights aswell, and yet you see yourselves as the victims only which is stupid and narrow minded. I told you before that you need to leave you NWFP enclave and see the rest of the country before you pass judgement on anyone.
The Army sits in Islamabad and is dominated by Punjabis, but the head of the Army who is calling all the shots, just happens to be Mohajir. Doesnt seem like Punjab domination there. But I admit that the Army has invested in heavily in Punjab, both through private individuals and as a unit.
But this is not somthing you should blame the Punjab or Punjabis for, its only due to lack of proper democracy that such imbalance arrises.
Ultimately, I see this as just your arguments based on nothing but bitterness agaisnt some invisible enemy. I think you need to open your eyes and see the reality for what it is. Its not solely the fault of punjab that the NWFP hasnt progressed.. I think you need to point some fingers at yourslf and your society..

If I ever become Mod of CAFE
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Silly Billy: I am a little confused by a mention of the term Chief of Army Staff with pre 1973 officers
it was my understanding that the top post was Commander in Chief. Ayub Khan was C in C from
I believe the mid 50's onwards.

Well lets go into this little debate: Firstly as mentioned earlier, not a Top general in that list
is Sindhi, Baloch or Seraiki.

Now lets focus on a more practical time frame. Post 1972 present day Pakistan came into being,
so lets breakdown the COAS people from then till the present day.

Firslt lets break Pakistans population into it's present ethnic/language components:
According to the CIA fact book Pakistans population consists off:

Punjabi 48%, Sindhi 12%, Siraiki 10%, Pashtu 8%, Urdu (official) 8%,
Balochi 3%, Hindko 2%, Brahui 1%,
Burushaski, and other 8%

Now after the fall of East Pakistan Pakistan has had the following COAS & C in C's

Gul Hassan Khan Pashtun (Dec 1971-March 3, 1972 )
Tikka Khan Punjabi (March 1972–March 1976)
Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq Punjabi (1976- August 1988)
Mirza Aslam Beg Mohajir (August 1988 – 1991)
Asif Nawaz Punjabi ( 1991– Jan 1993)
Wahid Kakar Pashtun (1993 January to 1996)
Jehangir Karamat Punjabi (1996-1998)
Pervez Musharraf Mohajir (1998-)

So out of 8 COAS, 4 have been Punjabi, 2 Pashtun, 2 Mohajir. There have been no Seriaki,
Baloch or SIndhi COAS to date. Now in length of service:
Out of 33 Years Punjabis have served for nearly 20, . Mohajirs have served for 9 years
and Pashtuns have served for 3 and half years
SO Punjab has been represented disproportionately in command of the Army
The breakdown is
A Punjabi has led Pak Army for nearly 60% of Pakistans
Military history
A Mohajir for 27%.
A Pashtun for 10%.

Sooo like I said disproprotionate!!

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Anyone who writes about the history please give a reference to the authentic book or published articles.

I think Balochis did niot get what they deserved a lot but they did not have a lot to begin with. They should be able to enjoy the natural gas like anyone else.
They also should come out of their narrowmindedness (pardon me) as they do not want to change to a better life by educating themselves and breaking the rule of backward Bugti people rule. Same is true with Sindhis and pathans. Education is the key to success. I love all people of Pakistan..the great nation on this earth who has stood against all odds.

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Just to give this perspective…Peshawar was once second in the district league tables as were many other parts of NWFP in as late as the 1960’s..why have things deterioated so much post 1973?

Deprivation high in Balochistan, Sindh
http://www.dawn.com/2002/text/ebr5.htm
By Our Staff Reporter
dated 2002
KARACHI, July 10: Punjab and NWFP in north are found to be better placed in economic and social terms as compared to Sindh and Balochistan where social scientists have detected high deprivation levels.

An inter-provincial analysis of deprivation levels done by the researchers of a well-known Karachi based private organization, Social Policy and Development Centre (SPDC), showed that Punjab is least deprived and Balochistan the most deprived province in Pakistan.

The annual report of the SPDC on social development in Pakistan entitled ‘Growth, Inequality and Poverty’, launched formally on Tuesday, has constructed Multi Deprivation Indicators (MDIs) based on the premise that deprivation is based on multiple dimensions. The report has classified Pakistan’s 100 districts in terms of high, medium and low deprivation.

The annual report found 57 districts in the high level deprivation category, 30 districts in the medium category and 13 districts in low deprivation category.

Nine of the 13 low deprivation category districts- more than 69 per cent of relatively prosperous districts-are in Punjab and 24 out of 57 high deprivation category districts -over 42 per cent impoverished districts-are in Balochistan.

The superior position of Punjab with respect to development is amply manifested by the fact that its most deprived district Rajanpur ranks 19th in 100 districts of Pakistan. It means that 18 other districts in Sindh and Balochistan are more deprived than the most deprived district Rajanpur in Punjab.

Karachi in Sindh has been found to be the most developed district in Pakistan followed by Lahore while Musakhel in Balochistan is ranked as the most deprived district in the country. Quetta, Balochistan’s seat of capital, ranks seventh least deprived and Peshawar capital of NWFP ranks 9th least deprived district in the national deprivation ranking. ..

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Some facts about Mega projects in baluchistan (this was as is in 2003)

In the Saindak project, for example, around 1, 200 Balochi youth were initially given jobs. The number is now down to 150 and the project managers are importing manpower from other provinces. In Hubco, out of 325 posts, only 37 low-cadre posts have been given to the people from Balochistan while 288 personnel from other provinces have been inducted

The 22-member supervisory Gwadar Port Authority does not have a single person from Balochistan. Its headquarters are in Defence, Karachi. Similarly, the six-member Gwadar Port Trust does not have a single person from Balochistan and is headquartered in Islamabad.

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The reason I say so..is simple it was Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardy who through the Awami League supported One Unit in exchange for becoming Prime Minister..it was a hige political sacrifice he made for the sake of Pakistan bya man who played such a key role in it’s formation..so on his becoming PM there was a Mohajir President, a Bengali PM, and a Pashtun CHief minister West Pakistan (Dr Khan Sahib)..the real politicians had their lives ended tragically afterwards (both in dubious circumstances) and Mirzas end was one of humiliation..penniless in London.

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If we analyse by province, then nearly 24.5 out of the 33.5 years i.e. since Dec 1971. - close to 75% of the time, we have had non-Punjab chiefs of the Army.

Gerneral Zia-ul Haq, Chief of Army Staff, 1976 - 1998 - NWFP.
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General Mirza Aslam Beg, Chief of Army Staff, 1988 - 1991. - Sindh.
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General Wahid Kakar, Chief of Army Staff, 1993 - 1996. - NWFP.
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General Pervez Musharraf, Chief of Army Staff, 1998 - present. - Sindh.
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But if one wants to look at ethnicity, then over 25 of the 33.5 years we have been led by non-Punjabi's.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto - CMLA/President/Prime Minister, Dec 1971 - Jul 1977 - Sindhi.

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Mohammed Khan Junejo - Prime Minister - Mar 1985 - May 1988. - Sindhi.
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Ghulam Ishaq Khan - President - July 1988 - July 1993. - Pathan.
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Benzair Bhutto - Prime Minister, Dec 1988 - Aug 1990 and Oct 1993 - Nov 1996 - Sindhi.
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Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi - Prime Minister - Aug 1990 - Nov 1990 - Sindhi.
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Nawaz Sharif - Prime Minister - Nov 1990 - Apr 1993, May - Jul 1993 and Feb 1997 - Oct 1999 - Kashmiri.
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Balkh Sher Mazari - Prime Minister - Apr - May 1993 - Balochi.
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Farooq Leghari - President - Nov 1993 - Dec 1997 - Balochi/Pathan.
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Zafurullah Khan Jamali - Prime Minister - Nov 2002 - Jun 2004 - Balochi.
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Shaukat Aziz - Prime Minister - Aug 2004 - Present - Mohajir/Kashmiri.
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General Pervez Musharraf - Chief Executive and President - Oct 1999 - Present - Mohajir.
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Balochi's, Kashmiri's, Mohajirs, Pathans and Punjabi's have all had a share in the governing of Pakistan since 1971. I for one I'm proud not just of the huge part my own community (Mohajirs) have played, but what the others have done as well. The minority communities must spend an equal amount of time emphasising their communities best contributions, as well pointing out the drawbacks that they do face.

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“Punjab and NWFP in north are found to be better placed in economic and social terms as compared to Sindh and Balochistan where social scientists have detected high deprivation levels.”
So what are you Pathans complaining about?!?
Sindh and Balochistan will eventually catch up… The building of Gawadar, regardless of who is getting the jobs in the project will be a boost for all of Balochistan in the long run. More economic activty and better infrastructue to facilitate the port will be a huge advantage for Balochistan. Sindh will develop slowly but surely, its only a matter of time. As Karachi develops, so will Sindh.