Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
I believe Cowasgee and his family were big in the shipping industry, until it was privatized by Bhutto.. Who happened to be Sindhi..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Could it be that Punjab might have better qualified workforce? And that qualified workers from other provinces have also gotten very high positions atleast proportional to the pool of skilled manpower in these provinces?
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Silly Billy,
Keep on misguiding people and keep up your ugly work. I couldn't resist one of your lies, ethnicity of Quaid-e-Azam. He was not GUJRATI. When we were kids we read in our text book that he was born in Jherk (Sindh) was Agha Khani Khoja and there after in Karachi but still Agha Khani Khoja. Later on he was involved in love affair with a Parsi girl student half of his age while giving her tuition. He changed his religion from (Agha Khani Khoja) with Bhai religion (Burhanuddin Rabbani) in order to marry Parsi beloved.
I wonder people like you change ethnicity of people as you deemed fit. I am waiting when you will declare Quaid-e-Azam as PUNJABI born in Gujranwala or Kana Khacha!!!
FARID
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Bhai, yes he was born in Sindh - but that does not make him an ethnic Sindhi. Yes, he was am Agha Khani Khoja by faith in his early years - but when does faith determine your ethnic group? There are millions of Agha Khani Khoja ethnic Gujerati’s born in Sindh and elsewhere. I was never trying to deceive, just stating the historical fact that the Quaid was born to ethnic Gujerati parents, who migrated from what is today Indian Gujrat in the 19th century. Here is one of many independent articles stating this.
Jinnahs birthplace and date of birth are disputed; however, it is generally believed that he was born in Wazir Mansion, Karachi, and raised in Bombay. His father was Jinnahbhai Poonja, from Gujarat (the younger Jinnah dropped ‘bhai’ from his name, in 1894). Jinnah’s father lived from 1857-1901. Jinnah’s family had Hindu, Ismaili, Shia and Sunni ancestry; and the family was primarily Ismaili. Jinnah was educated at the Sind Madrasatul Islam and the Christian Society High School, in Karachi. In 1893, he went to London to work for Graham’s Shipping and Trading Company, which his father did business with. He had been married to a 16-year old (distant) relative named Emibai; but, she died shortly after he moved to London. Around this time, his mother died as well. In 1918 he would marry Rattanbai Petit and they had a daughter, Dina. In 1929, his second wife died. He had 3 sisters, Fatima Jinnah, Shirin Bai, and Rehmat Bai.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinnah)
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
If Farid was born by chance in Punjab.. By your logic, does that make him Punjabi???!?!?
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
There has to be a consistent argument ..Punjabs claim to domination..by population does not hold up because Bengalis were in a majority yet deprived of political power..in fact the Bengalis madfe the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of Pakistan and agreed to population parity politically in the 1950’s.
Punjabs sudden rise in commercial influence in the 1980’s ..commercially was primarily at the expense of Mohajirs (NWFP has never been allowed to develop industrially..and neither has Baluchistan) post nationalisation ( a fact ironically which should have benefiited the PPP but never did). I should add the Mohajir monopoly of business was not a good thing..and had created a lot of anger in Pakistan at the time..but the subsequent nationalisation..while immensely popular simply created a corrupt business class.
Sindhis in the Judiciary such as Sajjad Ali Shah ..should not be an example one should quote as far as a success story goes of a multi ethnic society..in fact the judiciary is seen by many ethnic Sindhi nationalists as a Punjabi institution..because in the end every judge who voted for ZAB’s extra judicial murder was Punjabi..similarly Nawaz Sharif had his government restored..by contrast to BB ( as the later on Chief Justice said "“Seemingly it so appears that two Prime Ministers from Sindh were sacrificed at the altar of Article 58(2)(b) of the constitution but when turn of Prime Minister from Punjab came the tables were turned.” )..and Sajjad Ali Shah was subsequently ousted by a mostly Punjabi Supreme Court.
In the end the distinctive difference in economic terms between Punjabis, Mohajirs and Pashtuns is that the dispute between them is one of an uneven share of the cake..Pashtuns being the poorest out of the three are the most bitter (when you throw in political attitudes ..it is just salt on the wounds). Whereas in case of Sindhis and Balochis ..there bitterness is because they aren’t even allowed near the cake in the first place.
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
^So how exactly did the Punjabis take control of the industries and how did Punjab prevent the NWFP and Balochistan from developing industrialy?
You make all kinds of accusations but you dont explain one bit how Punjab gained control of industry nor do you explain whether this was a planned conspiacy on the part of Punjab?! It makes no sense to me why the Punjabis would want to control everything! Its counter productive and no one gains.
You know as well as I that most of the literate are in Karachi and Punjab. So if we are 50 percent of the population and we are trained and more educated then you in the smaller provinces then it makes sense that we would have more job oppurtunities aswell. But, considering the fewer educated and trained in smaller provinces, they too have their representation in industry. Mohajirs are still very succesful in many fields as are Pashtuns. Many Pashtuns for example work in construction and own heavy equipment. So the percieved imbalance is not artificial but natural do to the make up of the society... Seems fair to me.
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
How is Punjab dominant dispraportionately when the Punjabi are larger in population then all the pther provinces combined..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Between them the ethnic Sindhi father and his daughter ruled Pakistan over a period of 10.5 years. If we add on the more 3 years that the ethnic Sindhi Junejo was Prime Minister, and later the caretaker period of Jatoi, then ethnic Sindhi’s have governed Pakistan for some 14 years in total. That is a pretty proportionate share in governance for Sindhi’s, and plenty of opportunity to develop their province and it’s people.
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
I never said the word conspiracy.. I will answer your comments on industrialisation after I say something about education. For a people to get educated you require money…to construct schools, colleges and Universities. After 1947 as there were no provinces for a sizable amount of time you would have thought that the NWFP would have benefitted from increased investment, according to one state between 1947-1973 only 4.8 % of Federal government investment was in the province.
Post 1973 these have been in the hands of the Provinces, NWFP (& Fata) and Baluchistan are almost totally dependant on the Federal Government for their royalties from Gas and Hydel power to finance even basic salaries..let alone education. The federal government has a history of defaulting on the money owed..the end result is greater illiteracy..if for example Baluchistan was given its rightful share (and the previous share which was never paid up) the Province would instantly have it’s budget tripled. If the federal government had allocated more funds to projects in baluchistan over the last 30 odd years you would again have had more employment..and a growth of a knock on effect on schools and healthcare because of better tax revenues.
As for industrialisation is concerned..business people in NWFP (irrespective of ethnic background) have repeatedly been asking..for some concession to compensate for the poorer infrastructure in their areas and the distance from sea ports and air access. In the 80’s there was some headway made when the Gadoon industrial estate was formed..the concessions provided were withdrawn..and on laste stimate out of 2000 industrial units in NWFP alone..80% are closed (all this while pakistans economy is undergoing a boom).
Infrastructurally NWFP (according to stats in the 1990’s)only has 5.5% of the railway lines in the country…(please remember NWFP represents 16% approx of the population of Pakistan) similarly it has only 4.9% of the road length of the country. Gas consumption is only 1.64%, electricity..which despite producing 30% of all the electricity in the country (villages around the dams often have no power at all)
A lot of these %age figures are mentioned in books and some are available online..i could add another page on baluchistan..after all if thats the state of NWFP..which does have some representation in the Army and Civil Service..I leave it to you to figure out how bad the situation is in Baluchistan..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Gadoon was amazing project, why withdrawn?? cause it was tax free, many industries from Karachi and Lahore started production plants there with new names to get tax free , so instead of fueling economy there was no real investment as plants were shutdown from other places to move there.
railway less in both NWFP and Balochistan just because its has mountains and its hard to lay out tracks in those areas. plus Punjab didnt get any new extra track after partition anyway so you cant say punjab developed railways at the cost of other provinces. railways declined as it didnt do well at all.
there are problems i admit, but its not Punjab or Punjabis who are root cause of everything.
One suggestion:
revenue should be distributed not only based on population but also considering geography of provinces. Balochistan and NWFP will need more money for same length road build in Punjab.
so I think its time to debate that too, one cant just give resources on basis of Population only.
starting more national government funded projects in these provinces needed that too, but then again some people dont like mega projects in Gawader just an example.
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Per capita spending decreasing in Punjab
By Rizwan Razi
Per capita spending in Punjab is continuously decreasing as compared to other provinces where these spending have increased manifolds during last four years, data compiled by Federal Statistical Bureau revealed on Saturday. Per capita spending in the largest province, having 57.36 per cent population of the country at the 1998 census, has drastically been lower in every field of life especially during last four years for reasons better known to the economic managers. Total per capital federal transfers to Punjab are significantly lower as compared to other federating units. Punjab received only Rs 1,600 per head from the federal divisible pool as compared to Rs 2,000 of NWFP, Rs 2,400 of Sindh and Rs 3,500 of Balochistan during the year 2003-2004. In 1999, when an elected government was overthrown, Punjab was getting Rs 1,100, NWFP was getting Rs 1,200, Sindh was getting Rs 1,500 and Balochistan was drawing Rs 3,200 per head transfer from the federal government, which pointed out minimum disparity existing amongst people living in different provinces. Per capita development expenditures in Sindh are quite low despite being the second largest recipient from the federation of non-divisible pool transfers, as it was spending minimum of Rs 380, as compared to Rs 400 of Punjab, Rs 820 of NWFP and Rs 1,400 per head of Balochistan. It may be mentioned here that the Rs 29 billion Karachi Package, which is for exclusive development of infrastructure of the metropolis during next three years and those of coastal development projects etc, was not included in the per capital development budget spending of Sindh. Similarly, development projects being executed in Gwadar free port have also not been included in these expenditures.
Punjab is also leading way ahead in debt servicing while staying on the lower side and is spending minimum possible under this head. It may be mentioned here that former chief minister Shahbaz Sharif’s government had severally been criticised for acquiring high cost debts for undertaking development projects and putting the province in shabby economic situation and burdening the following government with heavy debts. However, data shows that Punjab is spending only Rs 200 per capita on debts servicing annually during last four years against Rs 400 of Sindh and Rs 430 of each NWFP and Balochistan. Economic experts say observing the trend during last four years, they are of firm belief that Punjab being the engine of growth for the federation should have acquire all these development loans which the largest province of the federation was forced to forego for keeping its debt profile at minimum possible level. Ironically, Punjab being the food basket of the federation as well as provider of all the cash crops like cotton and rice for export along with fresh fruit and horticulture, is offering minimum of subsidy to its growers as compared to other provinces which are contributing meagre in respect of export proceed earnings but offering maximum to agriculture, production and agriculture sectors. Punjab is offering Rs 1,100 per capital annual subsidy against Rs 1,800 of each NWFP and Sindh and Rs 2,400 of Balochistan in year 2003-4. Punjab was standing at Rs 700 per capita annual subsidy while NWFP and Sindh at Rs 900 and Balochistan at Rs 1,400 in 1999. It may be mentioned here that Punjab also made the country as self-sufficient in dairy and poultry products, having more than 90 per cent contributions in both the sectors.
Interestingly, during these four years, Punjab has maintained its spending on law and order at Rs 210 per head annually during these years as compared to NWFP’s Rs 180, Sindh’s Rs 310 and Balochistan’s Rs 410 in year 2003-4. Punjab was spending Rs 120 per head annually along with NWFP as compared to Rs 190 of Sindh and Rs 260 per head annually by Balochistan in 1999. It may be mentioned here that payments and expenditures to paramilitary forces like rangers in Sindh and levies in Balochistan were not included in these budgetary figures. The graph of per capita expenditure on general administration is showing a peculiar situation. Sindh, NWFP and Punjab were spending almost the same of less than Rs 200 per head annually on general administration in year 1999. However, this has increased drastically, as Sindh is going to spent Rs 450 per head annually, Balochistan despite the largest province to spend Rs 430 and NWFP 280 per capita annually while Punjab is maintaining its per capita spending at Rs 200 per annum, which indicates efficiency in administration. Experts believe that in the name of financial management, Punjab has kept its belt tight while other provinces spend heavily as they were receiving additional funds from the federation under one head or the other. They expressed apprehensions that these projections for the year 2003-4 are seemed to be for special purpose, because showing inflated figures just ahead of the announcement of the NFC award seemed meaningful. Punjab is emerging as the major loser in the game having maximum influx of poverty as more than half of its population has slipped below the poverty line during these four years, data indicates.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2004-daily/02-02-2004/main/main8.htm
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Shak: I accept railway lines have not been added over the years, however if you look at the routes which have been cancelled over the last twenty years ..the effect has been particular on NWFP..the Peshawar, Malaknd line has been closed, as had the Mianwali, bannu line and the Kohat one..in baluchistan I believe the Zhob one has been out of operation for a conseriable period of time.
Your comment on mega projects is disingenious..the people around NWFPs major Dam projects were not properly compensated for being dispossessed..till now. Giving up ones land for a mega project which benefits a third person is not something I would do..could you imagine if villages in Punjab were deprived of wheat at the expense of other provinces? Or if (despite beinga port) karachites were charged higher rates for importing than for other provinces? As such local misgivings about Gwader are understandable...
As far as revenue distribution is concerned..the population criteria is a bit of a joke. East Pakistanis often made a claim for population as being considered a criteria for resource distribution..however the same people who objected to that ..in those days now support population as being a criteria. NO federal state uses population as a criteria for distribution in the whole world..and next to none have such an unfair system as Pakistan has..( except former federations like Yugoslavia)
SB: A decreased federal trasnfer to Punjab would be a normal factor in a federation..if you look at the US or India or Canada as federal systems it's always the poorer or small population states that receive the most from federal resource distribution.
Nothing I have said are facts which are not universally known, economicsts ranging from Kaiser Bengali, Shahid Kardar to Akbar Zaidi have written about these imbalances extensively. As far as political grievances are concerned..I accept most ethnic groups in Pakistan have had at one time or the other played negative role in Pakistans development..the fact is nobody is willing to give anyone else a fair share..however in absolute terms Baloch, Bengalis and Sindhis suffered the most as a result of pakistans creation..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
The way you talk you sound as though you are implying that the Punjab govt and Punjabis are TRYING to keep you down intentionally. So if that not a conspiracy theory, I dont know what is!
As for the hydal power and such royalties from the govt, this is a problem effecting all of Pakistan, not just Punjab. Its a problem with the setup of the Pakistani system. In Punjab too, whatever resources there are are not used for the provinces but divided amongst the provinces. Granted the Punjab gets the bulk but again this is a problem with the NFC and the system setup. I for one and I think most others including Musharaf are open to more provincial autonomy which would ensure more control of the resources within the respective provinces.
As for industrialization, I agree the NWFP hasnt gotten all that it deserves. But we should remove FATA from the list, since those who occupy FATA are dead set against any sort of development since it may result in Govt involvement in their area. Also, I have heard that many would rather their populus stay uneducated and subserviant to their triabl elders… You im sure will not agree with this assesment. I think the govt’s dealing with FATA has been very fair upto now by not interphering with them.
Industrialization will only occur in places where investors can have a return on their investment. In Karach and Lahore and Islamabad, an investor can hope to get somthing back. Karachi being a port city, Lahore and Islamabad being the second largest cities. These places are relatively safer aswell, or precieved to be safer then Peshawar. And Safety is a factor, consider how little investment there was in Karachi during the the MQM govt war.. The reason why no invesment comes to NWFP s because it is seen as too dangeous… Why would anyone invest in a city where people knock down Billboards that they see as “vulgar!” Thats not going to bring much invesment. Peshawar is also right next to Afghanistan, which gives Peshawar a negative image. Also, Afghansitan being the biggest potential trading partner in that region of Pakistan, the fact that it isnt developed doesnt help anyone. The govt SHOULD invest in NWFP by making Highways, but they havent because, they couldnt afford the incvestment when their was very little hopes of recouping that invesment. How much trade is their between Lahore and Peshawar fr example compared to Lahore and Karachi? Perhaps trade could blossom and the ivesment would be a success but the govt did not take the risk unfortunately. I personally would have but then I would have to take a very big RISK. Now you have your MMA govt which isnt helping anyone either… I mean, who in their right minds would invest in a province where they rule? Honestly!
If I or you were investors and wanted a quick return on our investment or even a long term thing, where would you want to invest? Balochistan is the same deal.. Consider that there are almost no people liveing in that province and those that are, many happen to be subsitence farmers and herders.. Same thing applies here, who would invest in this province.
Balochistan is a classic example of govt neglect and its criminal, but lets not blame Punjabis for this. And I KNOW that Balochis have to buy cylinders of gas from their own fields, but perhaps there is some merit to what the govt says about why they cant get a supply. Still I agree its unfair and thats something that must change… Still no reason to want to cede from the union though…
But things ARE changing!
With the Gawadar port now in full swing, Balochistan will be far richer in the future I believe. The Gawadar port if succesful will one day be linked to the Central Asian states through the rest of Balochistan and NWFP AND Afghanistan. So the infrastructure of both provinces will definently improve.
Pakistan govt is also building and extension of the M1 motorway to Peshawar which is already in progress from what I hear and will cut the time of travel between the two cities, although the curren road that passes through Taxila I believe has also been upgraded.
With improvement in the situation in Afghanistan, the trade situation also improving immensly. You can help the situation by helping to root out the remnants of the Taliban in your NWFP and FATA. Also, we need to try to remove the menace of smuggling which hurts the economy…
Musharaf has already said that he wants provincial autonomy. Although my confidence in him has waned, at least the govt is aware of the need for this and I think it will be done eventually. Tis is something the provinces have to band together and demand.
Also, local govt sytem with all its cracks is a sign of improving govertnance at the grasstroots.
The NFC awards are very big problem, which are very unfair. But from what I read, the other provinces had come to a, agreement including Punjab, but Sindh refused to budge from its position. This is a very tricky issue and has to be handled with care. The old setup made sense on paper, Punjab would need more money oweing to its bigger population but that no longer works. India doesnt do it this way, neither should we.. But this is not a plan on the part of Punjab to keep other provinces down.
Also, you have to agree that the utalization of the fund is very poor. So while the fnding isnt great the utalization these funds by the provinces is just as poor. Imagine how much of a difference could be made if half the amount were actually utalized and not wasted. Corruption in Pakistan is at all levels and not just in Punjab… Local govts are guilty of doing a lot of harm in this regard.
NWFP residents have to vote in a govt that speaks for people who want such changes in their provinces. The MMA is a party whos only agenda is to bring about MORE Islam, as tough there werent enough of Islam in NWFP already. They have no concern for people like you who feel that Punjab is dominating their resourcs.
I think the fact that the MMA was voted into power only illustrates the fact that people are more concerned with political policy of the govt, and religoun and its role in the province, then the Punjabi Hegemony.
Also, its should be noted that while Democracy is screwed up in the rest of Pakistan, the MMA were still able to come to power in the NWFP. If the govt were so dead set against NWFP would they really want those goats in power? NWFP has more rights then you might think.
And also, the Kalabagh and Basha damns have yet to be built, and the only reason they havent is because of protest from the smaller provinces.. So where is this Govt bias and the conspiracy hatched by the Punjab?
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Sorry to make it so long... Please read, I think it makes sense..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Pakistan railways are in a decrepid state… The Railway obviously had to cut back on the rail serivce to meet budget restraints. If you were head of the railways, you would do the same. The routes in Punjab are more profitable then the ones in NWFP obviusoly. Yje route from Karachi to the North and to Punjab in particular where most of the industry is (and i explained why that is) is more profitable then a train route from Karachi to Quetta and Peshawar.
I agree this is insensative, but its about moeny and doing what makes sense. Pakistan Railways has been losing money for YEARS… To survive they had to cut costs.
Dams are a problem, they are a problem every where in the world. But the benefits can be many… The provnce should get more back from this damn, but this will only happen with more provincial autonomy…
And I can give you persoanl examples of a village in Punjab that was uprooted. In my own area, an entire village had its land taken away, because they wanted to build a cement factory. Women came out to protest and even they were hauled of to prison.. And this area is the Chakwal area which is the heart of the Pakistan Army. So dont give me that crap about how its only in NWFP.. PLEASE READ THIS PART OVER AND OVER…
And I already said that NFC has to be changed, and it would have been changed, but according to an article in Dawn a few months back, it was again stalled by the Sindh govt which wants economic factors to play a role… This was not the fault of the Punjab.
Its nothing prejudice or racist about any of this, its all economics.. If your such a great economist why not see thing in economic terms instead of this over emotional tirade!?!?
And I already said that things seem to be improving with the Gawadar port being built and Afghanistan improving.. .
I also forgot the Pipeline that will be running through Balochistan from Iran.. This they say will produce thousands of jobs.
And as for Gawadar… The govt has already trained some youth from that town. People were complaining that these youth had stil not gotten jobs but then the Gawadar port hadnt even been completed.
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
I believe the railways colsed down less profitable rail lines aswell to meet cost restraints..
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
THANK YOU! All you Anti Punjab guys should read this! Please!
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
Emotional tirades? I said Punjab and not Punjabis..the Pak Establishment has used similar tactics against Punjabis..like whats happened in Okara and other places..its happened in karachi. But there is a difference, Punjab as a whole has not been effected on the same scale...there has been no military operation in Punjab similar to the ones in baluchistan, East pakistan and Sind (+karachi)..to a lesser extent NWFP..many Punjabis have seen whats happened in the smaller provinces and stood up for them..many Punjabis opposed the 1970's military operationin Baluchistan..people like Aitaza Ahsan, Hanif Ramay, Meraj Khalid, Mian Iftikharuddin, Nawabzada Nasrullah were and are men of principle and integrity. The difference is one of equivalence ..the scale of damage in baluchistan has been severe...
The comments about FATA were quite sad actually and reflect total lack of knowledge about those areas..so I won't really go into a reply about that. The comment about the M-1 was funny that section of the motorway was supposed to have been built years ago and it covers a fraction of the province. The railway line comment was totally different..the routes were cut in the 80's..cost effectiveness was not cited as a reason..just to throw in some more facts into the story In 1992-1993 the per capita consumption by NWFPwas 217(KWH) compared to 307(KWH) for Pakistan (NWFP Development Statistics 95 &96 255). Till 1987 there were no 500KV transmission lines in the province and 5% of the 220KV transmission lines of the country were in Pakhtunkhwa (Memorandum for National Finance Com-mission 35 ). The province in the mid 90's had only 7% of the total telephone connections in Pakistan. The reason for a lack of industrial development is not law and order as you said..NWFP is probably safer than Karachi..as Gadoon showed people will invest with the right incentives..the problem was and is locational disadavatnaged..which add some 20% to cost..whne given the right incentives..there are many companies which have invested in the province.
Your comments about the MMA are irrelevant to this discussion, the time period of what I have mentioned was well before the MMA coming into power..your arguments about Federal government recouping its losses are also flawed..state owned entreprises in Pak have often been perpetually in loss...but certain projects are not undertaken for a profit, they are done for the general region uplift..if that was not so..why have a federal government..you might as well have a private contractor!
Re: The Ultimate Losers in Pakistan!
UA…Although I share your love for Pakistan as well. My main reason is that it does befit a muslim to scourn his/her source of freedom. Out of Allah’s (SWT) grand plan I am a Pakistani National. Living in the US has taught me this more that any thing. No matter what I do, I can’t give up being a Pakistani. And if any country turns me away I can always come back to my country. Here is where I have freedom. I am a citizen. There are challenges and they stem from many root causes. Its not one. to discuss them would be another thread.
Any how, what is the source of your pride and love for Pakistan UA?