The punishment of apostate

Society Religion & Philosophy
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161

Re: The punishment of apostate

Sothei dude... i have been thinking.

Did you know, bella disapprove mulism calling Jesus(pbuh) not-divine?... Calling him a man??
Don't you think its pretty religious stance ??

How come then she turn around and act like atheist and pick on muslims.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

You have made multiple topics, posts on the same thing in multiple forums across GS. When you do that repeatedly and challenge peoples' core beliefs with hostility they aren't going to shower you with flowers. You also seem to forget the majority of the forums' population follows Islam and find it as dear as their family members so obviously you will get stick if you keep challenging it over and over again.

I have had numerous debates with diwana as well and at times we did not get along but I have never found his tone hostile. His opinions differing from mine yes but never hostile. Keeping in mind, I agree with a lot of stuff you say when it comes to secular mindset or liberalism but there is way to bring your point across. If you feel others aren't being polite then why stoop to their level? When you do that people will treat your opinion with derision. Not you per se but generally.

I don't agree with anything pysah comes up with but I will debate him easily as I know he won't counter my points with rudeness. I am not saying I am a farishta, I lose my temper too but it doesn't make it right. When people get heated in religious debates the exchange become useless and nothing more than two sides of extremism trying to show who's less extreme.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

I know you're not gonna get this, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

Christians and Jews don't accept each others' books. The two groups bash each other too; they make fun of each other. These same two groups also bash Islam. These two groups reject the Quran. But INTERESTINGLY, Islam is the only religion that accepts their books as well. Islam is the only religion of the three, whose holy book, acknowledges that there is a degree of validity to the books of the Christians and Jews.

See, Bella, you have once again only zeroed-in on the negative. Yes, the Quran does indeed say that the books of the christians and Jews were distorted/manipulated. But at the same time it ALSO says that there is a degree or extent of similarity/validity between the three books. So, we don't say that their books were totally and entirely corrupted, we acknowledge that parts of their texts contain confirmation of what is in the Quran. The Quran told the Muslims to verify the message with the books that the Christian and Jews have.

You will NOT find Christians and Jews acknowledging any amount of validity of The Quran. But our book acknowledges to a degree, their validity. I am telling you this because you are attacking Muslims of bashing their books. And I shared with you that there is a degree of acceptance, to emphasuze to you that you are ONLY seeing ONE side. At least I acknowledged BOTH things, I acknowledge that we believe their books have been tampered with...but i also KNOW that we believe in a degree of validity as well. You won't find even a little bit of validation of Islam from the other two religions. I am showing you the flip-side of the coin, while you're only staring....not even staring ....but glaring at one side.

I do not expect you to accept this explanation of mine because I anticipate that you will reject this too, or try to negate it completely.....whereas I still agreed with you in the partial corruption of the books. But I highly doubt that you will agree with me on the point I've made above.

It's not us who say that their books are partially tampered with. You like to say..."You Muslims do this and that." We Muslims believe that the Quran is Allah's word, not the Prophet's. It's Allah's word. We believe that it is Allah who says that the books have been tampered with.

And you are becoming so incensed as if this claim is only made by the Muslims. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but many Christians even know that there are soooooo many versions of the Bible. Rather than becoming inflamed at the Muslims, why not do your research? You will come across even Christians who admit the same thing that there is a lack of consistency, there are many, many versions.

And before you argue that there are sects among Muslims that have tampered with the Quran. Well, go back to the earliest copy of the Quran and compare it...it's gonna be the same. I don't know about Jews, but you will not find many Christians that have committed the Bible ...word for word...to memory. There's not a strong guarantee that if the Preacher were to misquote a verse from the bible, that many people from the audience will be able to correct him without looking at their copy of the Bibles. But the Quran......in it's ORIGINAl form....has been committed to memory from the time it was sent down....and throughout history....by Muslims all over the Globe. If you have a hafiz in the US who makes an error in recitation.......he will be corrected by a multitude of other Hafiz individuals from across the globe...not only corrected but verified.

Intolerance is found in all religions, even in those who believe in no religion. But sadly I detect....not even detect but feel so much outrage...and anger in you toward Islam. Bella, I may have overlooked it....but I don't recall coming across any post in which you've said anything positive about Islam. I've seen only criticism and accusations...Islam does this...Islam does that...Muslims do this...muslims do that. Are you like trying to avenge the other faiths by going all out with attacking Islam?

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Re: The punishment of apostate

other than the sudanese woman's case, what other threads did i start which had anything to do with religion specifically? and even that was a news article. yes i participate in alot of threads opened by other members but how many times have I started a topic on religion?

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I have had numerous debates with diwana as well and at times we did not get along but I have never found his tone hostile.
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thats strange because he always started attacking my intellect the moment I didn't agree with his theories. I dont care that he has his views and has every right to have them, but calling your oponent dumb and stupid is no way to argue like mature adults. There are other members too who disagree with me completely but don't resort to such silly tactics. Either you are biased or you didn't read enitre discussion. I have never attacked anyone UNLESS they provoked first. yes im no saint, if someone uses hostile tone, I will respond in the similar tone. there are many other Muslims on this forum as well that I have never ever been in any form of hostile argument because they just state their views and not get into personal attacks.

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His opinions differing from mine yes but never hostile. Keeping in mind, I agree with a lot of stuff you say when it comes to secular mindset or liberalism but there is way to bring your point across. If you feel others aren't being polite then why stoop to their level? When you do that people will treat your opinion with derision. Not you per se but generally.
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this I agree with. yes sometime i also stoop to their level, but that is because they seem to get hostile and rude first. its just very hard to have any meaningful discussion with those who show such behavior.

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I don't agree with anything pysah comes up with but I will debate him easily as I know he won't counter my points with rudeness. I am not saying I am a farishta, I lose my temper too but it doesn't make it right. When people get heated in religious debates they become useless and nothing more than two sides of extremism trying to show who's less extreme.
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I agree completely. I have discussed things with psyah in many threads and he's usually never rude and thats why I always appreciate his responses. but other people donot discuss like Psyah does. I tend to respond in a similar tone as used with me. Yes, i know im no farishta either, and maybe I shouldn't stoop to their level.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

LMAO!!! See, I think that’s one of the reasons why debating with Diwana can be maddening…because he does tend to stay calmer than his opponents. Sarcastic no doubt, but usually calm. He’s probably the kind of who smiles at you right after he say something to vex you, making you want to hurl a vase at him. :hehe:

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Re: The punishment of apostate

RV, the moment you tell someone that their book is even partially corrupted and yours is the true one, it can be taken as an insult to their faith. please try to see things from other side as well.

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You will NOT find Christians and Jews acknowledging any amount of validity of The Quran. But our book acknowledges to a degree, their validity. I am telling you this because you are attacking Muslims of bashing their books. And I shared with you that there is a degree of acceptance, to emphasuze to you that you are ONLY seeing ONE side. At least I acknowledged BOTH things, I acknowledge that we believe their books have been tampered with...but i also KNOW that we believe in a degree of validity as well. You won't find even a little bit of validation of Islam from the other two religions. I am showing you the flip-side of the coin, while you're only staring....not even staring ....but glaring at one side.
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I am not one sided here, but you are. you have failed to acknowledge that people from other faith can be offended when they are told their belief is corrupted and false.

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I do not expect you to accept this explanation of mine because I anticipate that you will reject this too, or try to negate it completely.....whereas I still agreed with you in the partial corruption of the books. But I highly doubt that you will agree with me on the point I've made above.
It's not us who say that their books are partially tampered with. You like to say..."You Muslims do this and that." We Muslims believe that the Quran is Allah's word, not the Prophet's. It's Allah's word. We believe that it is Allah who says that the books have been tampered with.

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yes, thats your belief, that doesn't mean everyone must accept it. you believe Allah says that, while people of other faith donot believe in that. so try and see things from their POV as well, and try to see what they might consider as being insensitive if you are sensitive about anyone saying anything about your belief.

[quote]
And you are becoming so incensed as if this claim is only made by the Muslims. Well, sorry to disappoint you, but many Christians even know that there are soooooo many versions of the Bible. Rather than becoming inflamed at the Muslims, why not do your research? You will come across even Christians who admit the same thing that there is a lack of consistency, there are many, many versions.
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yes, and even i know there are soooo many versions of Islam. rather than becoming inflamed by me, why not do your research?

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And before you argue that there are sects among Muslims that have tampered with the Quran. Well, go back to the earliest copy of the Quran and compare it...it's gonna be the same. I don't know about Jews, but you will not find many Christians that have committed the Bible ...word for word...to memory. There's not a strong guarantee that if the Preacher were to misquote a verse from the bible, that many people from the audience will be able to correct him without looking at their copy of the Bibles. But the Quran......in it's ORIGINAl form....has been committed to memory from the time it was sent down....and throughout history....by Muslims all over the Globe. If you have a hafiz in the US who makes an error in recitation.......he will be corrected by a multitude of other Hafiz individuals from across the globe...not only corrected but verified.
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why are you going in a completely different topic? I am not arguing here whether Quran is the truth or not, I have my reasons to believe that it's not and I am not interested or even allowed to share it here. seems like you are trying to provoke me here and trying to get my views on Quran?

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Intolerance is found in all religions, even in those who believe in no religion. But sadly I detect....not even detect but feel so much outrage...and anger in you toward Islam. Bella, I may have overlooked it....but I don't recall coming across any post in which you've said anything positive about Islam. I've seen only criticism and accusations...Islam does this...Islam does that...Muslims do this...muslims do that. Are you like trying to avenge the other faiths by going all out with attacking Islam?
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There are many positive things about Islam which I acknowledge but there has never been a discussion of sort on this forum. I like the concept of cleanliness, truthfulness, discouraging of backbiting, brotherhood, simplicity, helping the needy, rights of orphans, and many many more. NO religion is purely evil or purely perfect in my opinion. each has its positives and negatives. I am not saying or even think Islam is only negative and nothing positive. yes islam has many positive things too, and I also know that majority of muslims are not evil.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

I wonder would it be disrespect full to tell them at the faults Christians scholars found and fix in bible ?

1 John 5:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1 John 5:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 John 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

1 John 5:6

6 This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth.

1 John 5:7

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

7 There are three that testify:[a]

1 John 5:8

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree.

=====================================================

the first one is used to develop idea of trinity. Then later on its thrown away as fabrication.
I wonder how christians see it.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

She has a point.

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him."

29:46 quran

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Bella...

You only see that they would be offended at being told their books are corrupt. But you forget to consider how they would feel upon being told that the Quran does recognize and validate their books to an extent...that the Quran told the Muslims to use the texts if the Jews and Christians to confirm the message sent to the former. This lends a credence to the other books. This should evoke positive feelings among the Christians and Jews.

You are only looking at what would offend them...what they would they be offended by....only only only only looking at the offense. If we present to you that the Quran also validates them.....this does not provide your heart comfort.....you only only only want to focus on the word corrupt.

Bella...tum sirf negative ko dekh sakti ho....positive ko tum consider bhi nahi kar sakti. You shun any amount acknowledgment...any amount of validation and mercy Islam shows toward the other religions. You glare it, become consumed.

How about us Muslims? I told you that the Christians and Jews do no offer any amount of validation or acceptance of the Quran. So this shows a greater defecit on their end because at least the Quran acknowledges their books and an extend of validity in them. The Quran even says that for those christians and jews and Sabeans that believed in the truth, there is heaven for the....So at least we show them some acceptance, we get none from them. We get none from them. We get none from them. On top of that we are though of as barbarians. How come this does not bug you? You are blind to this.

Bella aik chotay bacha would even understand that something is better than nothing. And here you are, and adult, who is against the side that offers some acceptance and validation and cannot see that this is at least better than the two sides that offer no acceptance at all. If a small ray of light shines into a dark rook...the ray of light standing for acceptance and validity....you don't want to look at the corner the light is coming from...you prefer to stare at the darkness. You are showing the same hardheadedness to Muslims that you criticize the Muslims for showing others. You would much sooner see some good in other faiths..you may yourself to see it in other faiths.,.but you won't allow yourself to see any good in Islam.

Mujhay bahut ofsos, bahut dukh hota tumhari soch pe...tumhari baaton pe. Bahut ofsos. There are other non-Muslims on here...I don't feel that way for them because they are not as persistent as you in your criticism of Islam. Gosh, I haven't seen this extent even from Queer. We are not trying to get you to convert to Islam, we are attempting to have you see Islam in a more positive light....but you cannot acknowledge one good thing about the religion...you see nothing but darkness in Islam.

Just answer these 2 questions for all of us, it'll save time. It's a yes or no question: You don't want to see any good in Islam right? Have you made up your mimd about Islam? If the answer to this question is a 'yes,' then you shouldn't be asking questions to seek clarification if you already believe you have it. And we should stop answering your queries. Or maybe it's best that we think that you've made an unrelenting mind about Islam and it's pointless to debate with you. Some people ask questions only to prove themselves right.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Thanks Shak, RV and Muqa bhai.

@RV: Not the whole vase, but what’s in it may be. Like this ->:rose:

:blush:

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Re: The punishment of apostate

It was said by someone who has no shame in disrespecting books/scriptures over 1000 years ago.

Point in reference is choosing over 1000 years.

This was in reference to following so called science blindly when there was none whatsoever scientific proof provided. Merely opinion.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Monk, it won't make a dent's worth of a difference in her understanding unless Allah wills it.

We all should stop trying to answer her questions. It might force her to do a study of her own a and that may be best because it would then only be a debate between her own mind and her conscience. Sometimes this has more impact. We should leave her alone, there is toooo much noise here, leave her to her own mind and conscience.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

Sharmaanay ki koi zaroorat nahi hai, :smack:. Don’t forget that many vases are without flowers. And roses come with thorns. :chai:

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Re: The punishment of apostate

*Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.(6:109).
*

The guidelines to answering non-muslim questions are right there. Going above and beyond the guidelines are going to help no one.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

No wonder Allah has many times called upon "those who think." It is not rocket science...you don't have to exert a monumental amount of brain power to see that this verse reflects tolerance as does the one quoted by Monk.

Anyways, leave the woman alone. She has received soooooo much attention and assistance. She can try to resolve her queries on her own now.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

I put roses in vase out of my backyard. Don’t you think vase looks very sad without them?

I thought I would get roses, and do know roses come with thorns too. :frowning:

But better than stilettos and a vase. :smiley:

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Well said. And stated very politely. An example that you are polite for the most part. Unless personally attacked.

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I respectfully disagree wrt diwana. He has made some really terrible comments about homosexuality. Your experience with him may be different. Maybe he treats you differntly. My experience with him has been less than pleasant.

If you are going to bring up the politeness factor, I would suggest a general note to ALL participants in this tbread. Rather than put the onus on bella to maintain her cool while some go after her personally.

I do appreciate the positive changes you have made. And think you r doing a great job. I am also positive that there will be no more negative references to revered figures. But let us acknowledge that such references were made in direct response to a follow up post by Muqawee - what made you leave islam?

Let is ALL calm down and acknowledge that impolite behavior has not been from only one side.

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Re: The punishment of apostate

and you are only looking at what offends you and others with same belief as you. you only want to focus on how insensitive and offensive my posts can be without even trying to understand my POV.

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Bella...tum sirf negative ko dekh sakti ho....positive ko tum consider bhi nahi kar sakti. You shun any amount acknowledgment...any amount of validation and mercy Islam shows toward the other religions. You glare it, become consumed.
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tum bhi sirf mera negative posts he dekhti ho. i even mentioned Islam has BOTH positives and negatives, but ofcourse you ignored or missed that part conviniently!

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How about us Muslims? I told you that the Christians and Jews do no offer any amount of validation or acceptance of the Quran. So this shows a greater defecit on their end because at least the Quran acknowledges their books and an extend of validity in them. The Quran even says that for those christians and jews and Sabeans that believed in the truth, there is heaven for the....So at least we show them some acceptance, we get none from them. We get none from them. We get none from them. On top of that we are though of as barbarians. How come this does not bug you? You are blind to this.
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most of them today give muslims full freedom, yet the same is not done to non-muslims living in muslim country. seems like you seem to be blind when it comes to insensitivtiy shown by muslims to typical western or liberal lifestyle. if someone believes in a religion which claims to be superior, they obviously consider other belief system as false and have many reasons for it. now to the other person, those reasons can seem insulting and offensive. this goes BOTH ways. how can you not see that? I have seen christians calling quran and islam false, and I hear the same argument in opposition towards christianity and other religions as well.

[quote]
Bella aik chotay bacha would even understand that something is better than nothing. And here you are, and adult, who is against the side that offers some acceptance and validation and cannot see that this is at least better than the two sides that offer no acceptance at all. If a small ray of light shines into a dark rook...the ray of light standing for acceptance and validity....you don't want to look at the corner the light is coming from...you prefer to stare at the darkness. You are showing the same hardheadedness to Muslims that you criticize the Muslims for showing others. You would much sooner see some good in other faiths..you may yourself to see it in other faiths.,.but you won't allow yourself to see any good in Islam.
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i mentioned before and you're making me repeat this over and over. EVERY religion has positives and negatives, including islam.

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Mujhay bahut ofsos, bahut dukh hota tumhari soch pe...tumhari baaton pe. Bahut ofsos. There are other non-Muslims on here...I don't feel that way for them because they are not as persistent as you in your criticism of Islam. Gosh, I haven't seen this extent even from Queer. We are not trying to get you to convert to Islam, we are attempting to have you see Islam in a more positive light....but you cannot acknowledge one good thing about the religion...you see nothing but darkness in Islam.

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mujhay bhi bohot afsos hai ke tum meri har baat ko ghalat nazar se dekhti ho. doesn't matter what i say you just have a stubborn perception about me. I did mention a few good things about islam in my post before, did you miss it? please scroll back and see my previous post where I quoted you.

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Just answer these 2 questions for all of us, it'll save time. It's a yes or no question: You don't want to see any good in Islam right? Have you made up your mimd about Islam? If the answer to this question is a 'yes,' then you shouldn't be asking questions to seek clarification if you already believe you have it. And we should stop answering your queries. Or maybe it's best that we think that you've made an unrelenting mind about Islam and it's pointless to debate with you. Some people ask questions only to prove themselves right.
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I see good and bad both in Islam as i do with most other religions. I dont know every single thing about islam so thats why I sometimes post questions which I donot have clear cut answers to. I dont care to prove my self right on this issue at all. I fully accept and respect that everyone will have their own view on religion.

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This place is becoming a fish market :hehe:

I think the thread topic is long gone … If our intention is to give dawah … Then let’s be welcoming … Some of the people who choose to debate with Muslims have to get a lot of courage and very few are as smart as bella88 and Southie … I trust that deep down inside if there is something good they have seen in Islam … They have already acknowledged it … May Allah (SWT) make the intelligent and wise people … Illuminated with His Guiding Light … Ameen.