The punishment of apostate

[muqawwee123]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Thank you for making my point. That is exactly why laws of the land should not be made based on religion. Your recommendation to apostates was they migrate. And you add migration is not a big deal in today's world. Reasonable people would beg to differ. And I do. People SHOULD BE FREE TO choose their religion without having to migrate. .let us agree to disagree on this one.

and people should not be naive to abuse someone's religious feeling and accept that they will be presented with flowers.

Agree to disagree with this point.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Mr. Monk

I am waiting in the parking lot.

[Monk]

Re: The punishment of apostate

no.

[muqawwee123]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I don't know this site. I used the keywords I listed.

question is - is what the Link states abt this gentleman's interpretation accurate? This question open to anyone who does have access to this site.

In other words if this gentleman espouses certain views that r damaging wouldn't fans of his religious books, as an example, want to know?

Again I want to emphasis I had no idea this was a banned site.

I have gone through some books of Maududi and he got some basis for his conclusions. He is a good writer and he is one of the scholars who is not only liked by Deobandi school of thought, but has a good reputation among Shia community as well. Many people have written books against his famous work 'khilafat o Mamlokiyat' a book based on incident of Karbala and its reasons.

The point is all the writers / scholars have their views on a particular issue and there are people who don't follow them or have differing views. That is not a big deal IMO.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

and people should not be naive to abuse someone's religious feeling and accept that they will be presented with flowers.

Agree to disagree with this point.

I actually agree with this post. But we just have a different definition of apostasy. To me that is simply changing ones religion. It seems per this post u consider apostasy as somehow abusing someone's religious feelings.

looks like we r talking abt different things here.

Even per ur definition of apostasy, in a free society, religions should be open to criticism within the bounds of decency. And open to folks leaving it. That should NOT be grounds for having to MIGRATE!

Just wanted to be clear on what we r disagreeing upon.

On another note, I find this shifting of the goal post a bit, shall we say, disturbing. To throw in abusing religious feelings when discussing migration as the only option for apostasy is changing the rules in the middle. We can agree to disagree on the ethics of such a strategy as well.

[muqawwee123]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I actually agree with this post. But we just have a different definition of apostasy. To me that is simply changing ones religion. It seems per this post u consider apostasy as somehow abusing someone's religious feelings.

looks like we r talking abt different things here.

Even per ur definition of apostasy, in a free society, religions should be open onto criticism within the bounds of decenxy. And open to folks leaving it. That should NOT be grounds for having to MIGRATE!

Just wanted to be clear on what we r disagreeing upon.

On another note, I find this shifting of the gold post a bit, shall we say, disturbing. To throw in abusing religious feelings when discussing migration only option for apostasy is changing the rules in the middle. We can agree to disagree on the ethics of such a strategy as well.

Migration is not only the option thats what I'm saying from the first post where I mentioned Muslim's migration to Ethopia and Medina. You probably missed the whole point. Changing religion is not offending, but after changing religion and then expecting that society who follow the religion you abandon will listen to opposing views with open heart and welcome your statements against that religion is not justified.

There are two different things. How should people / societies behave and how people actually behave. The responsible people act after considering the second part and not invite wrath of societies by idealizing only first part.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

When I asked that question, I had not made it compulsory to answer. I said 'If you wish to share'. You people live in west, know the concepts of hate speech besides knowing freedom of expression. I thought people living in those societies use their right of freedom of expression with responsibility, but that thread proved me wrong. If I made a mistake by asking that question, you could avoid to make a mistake by coming a response which anyone can obviously anticipate considering the membership here.

Masjid dha de, Mandir dha de, dha de jo kucch dainda Par kisi da dil na dhain, Rab dilaan vich rehnda.

people from west are more vocal when some minority or its worship places are attacked. They should be vocal and everyone should be vocal about that. But I'm sorry to say when it comes to sensitive feelings of people (you are calling bigots), many people missed all the points. Can you say that you don't know that calling Muslim's Allah cruel and Islam a sexist religion will not attract the reaction you faced in that thread. You could easily skipped the question, if you had that bitter thoughts to share or you could have worded it in better way.

yes i know the intolerant bigots will have a problem and thats what happened. the same bigots post so many hate posts on secularity, on homosexuality, on atheism! how is this not double standards?
funny how you try to justify intolerance by using their 'sensitive' feelings. lol absolutely no sensitivity required for the other side at all!

[quote]
Here you will find many people who can accept anything against the religion and religious figures even calling Quran a fairy tale is allowed and does not require any action by admin (referring to your statement : this is the problem with this forum, there is absolutely no room for anyone to have a different view), but again there are members who feel for these things and raise voice against such things.
[/quote]

strange how those threads get locked yet when bigots post hate posts, no one bats an eye from religious peoples side.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Its enforcement for Muslims, who opt to be called Muslims. Its not enforcement by compulsion. Its people's choice to accept Islam and follow its ruling. If they are not satisfied, they got other options. One has to observe the feelings and sensitivities of majority's religious sentiments (BTW Islam got references to care for others sensitivities as well). Why its a duty of a non-believer to deliver his / her differing views to the majority and that too in instigating way like you did in that 'are you satisfied with your religion' thread?

Other options? really? in a sharia enforced country, there isn't much option left. secondly, I posted my views, nothing was being instigated. this is the reason why muslim world is showing so much intolerance today.

[quote]

Every person acts according to his belief. Persons actions are definitely dependent ho he perceive his affiliation with family, culture and religion (which is most sensitive in most of the cases). You can conduct a poll and ask people how would they react if some one call names to their family members.. Some people might say they will ignore it, but in reality this is not the case with majority. People do react on such things.

BTW, why there is dire need to attack someone's prophet and talk against them? Will that provide an accomplishment sense?
[/QUOTE]

such ridiculous example. people can be sensitive about their family members but no one is allowed to be killed just because they say anything negative about your family. everyone is respected by many and not respected by others. I have heard many muslims attack so many evolutionary scientists and atheists. what will that accomplish?

[Anwer_Pasha]

Re: The punishment of apostate

There is no clear order about an individual apostate so it was duty of Mujtahid ul asar , who can be no one else than caliph to keeping issuing the orders time to time about different issues , Now we are so divided and Mulla is so rigged that he is not ready to listen a word , Our interpretations are just useless . Now a days 'Saudis' are trying to be a little realistic so wait .

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I have clarified that question was not making digs at other religions, it was about the religion you follow and bella is not following Islam any more, so she should have been careful to call Allah cruel and Islam sexist. She should have option for not replying or wording her opinion in better way. Her post was not liked by many people who got the title of bigots and you keep on hitting like button to show that you don't find any problem in her post. That makes people make assumptions about you attitude, when you are still claiming to be respectful towards all the religions.

and you keep hitting like buttons on posts which make personal attack on me! you liked all the posts which disrespected me.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Bella,

You asked if Islam tolerates criticism of the faith?

Will Christians, those who believe in their faith, have tolerance for anyone who ridicules Jesus (AS). Would Jews, those who believe, have tolerance for anyone who criticizes Moses (AS). No, they won't. Naturally, they won't. It's because they have love for these Prophets. You staunchly adhere to your belief system of secular humanism, would you 'tolerate' it if someone criticized you? And is it unreasonable for you to become more and more angry if the criticism you receive becomes harsher and harsher? No, it isn't.

people criticise christianity all the time here in western countries. i have told plenty of christians that i dont think it makes any sense and no one seems to ever get offended the way muslims do! and yes you can criticise my secular humanism all you want, beause i respect your POV and your opinion regarding my belief.

[quote]
What is worse than criticism is killing. The Prophet SAWS forgave people who made attempts to kill him. He was criticized and scorned by his own uncle. He showed tolerance.

So, bella....if you wanna know if Islam persecutes people for criticising Islam, then look for the answer in the seerah. We are lesser human beings than the Prophet SAWS...we don't have the discipline to even pray our namaz, nor to control our egos and practice sabar. Look to the Prophet SAWS for the answer to your question because it him that we are supposed to follow and emulate. The answer to your question carries greater validity when you look at how the leader led his life because that is set as the standard.....not the followers. The former is a stronger indication.

You go to a company and you see a few employees that are slacking off and disorganized, basically they're not following the rules. Does this mean that the company advocates such chaos? No. Look at the handbook of the company that was created by the leader or founder. It contains the rules, the expectations, the standards, the way of life in this company. Some workers will follow the rules and expectations better than others. But if you want a better and clearer idea/answer as to whether this company advocates intolerance, disorganization etc etc.....ask the leader. If he's not there or if he's left the world......refer to the handbook, that tells you what is acceptable conduct and what isn't. *** Use the handbook to confirm whether or not what the workers are doing is acceptable. Don't use the workers to confirm the standards that were set; this is what you have been doing it seems.

If you use the followers' actions to form an overall opinion of the faith, then every faith will seem cruel to you...Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, ....Heck even the secularists.
[/QUOTE]

even some posters here mentioned criticising religion in a muslim country is not allowed. psyah mentioned in his post that saying negatgive things about prophet is not tolerated and gave me reasons for it as well.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Security reason are also one of the important factors to migrate. My point of view is to avoid confrontation. If you can afford to migrate, go ahead. Otherwise, just play safe by not hurting someone's religious sentiments.

instead of teaching tolerance, you're telling them they are better off migrating. great.
what about when muslims living in US speak against the 'fahashi', 'besharmi' 'sexual freedom' and homosexuality? should I tell those people to leave western countries and move back to their muslim country? should I also not tolerate their views? should they be deported?

what about those muslims who say christianity is false while living in a christian majority country?
so many muslims here preach their religion and openly talk about how jesus christ was not god and how bible is corrupted! so its perfectly okay for muslims to call their books corrupt, their belief false, their religion as wrong, yet no one should be allowed to say the same for islam.

[Monk]

Re: The punishment of apostate

instead of teaching tolerance, you're telling them they are better off migrating. great. what about when muslims living in US speak against the 'fahashi', 'besharmi' 'sexual freedom' and homosexuality? should I tell those people to leave western countries and move back to their muslim country? should I also not tolerate their views? should they be deported? what about those muslims who say christianity is false while living in a christian majority country? so many muslims here preach their religion and openly talk about how jesus christ was not god and how bible is corrupted! so its perfectly okay for muslims to call their books corrupt, their belief false, their religion as wrong, yet no one should be allowed to say the same for islam.

Ok so you would have deported Jesus(pbuh) as well ?? Just like jews did?
since he spoke against all that??

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Migration is not only the option thats what I'm saying from the first post where I mentioned Muslim's migration to Ethopia and Medina. You probably missed the whole point. Changing religion is not offending, but after changing religion and then expecting that society who follow the religion you abandon will listen to opposing views with open heart and welcome your statements against that religion is not justified.

There are two different things. How should people / societies behave and how people actually behave. The responsible people act after considering the second part and not invite wrath of societies by idealizing only first part.

To be honest, you are all over the place. Remember we were discussing apostasy only. Not pissing off society. You gave an example of folks migrating in the last. And stated migration is the option in the present. You also stated migration in the present world is not a big deal.

You keep bringing in the issue of pissing off people when what was discussed was apostasy. And what are the options for people who choose to convert out of a religion.

If u like, state clearly your position on what are the reasonable and PRACTICAL options for someone who converts out of a religion. No mixing up pissing off people etc.

Thank you.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

[quote="bella88, post:507, topic:308066"]

yes i know the intolerant bigots will have a problem and thats what happened. the same bigots post so many hate posts on secularity, on homosexuality, on atheism! how is this not double standards?
funny how you try to justify intolerance by using their 'sensitive' feelings. lol absolutely no sensitivity required for the other side at all!

I agree.

[Shak]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Bella, I am not that religious myself and I have a lot of questions about stuff but there is a way of asking questions. Your tone I am sorry to say is laced with hostility. Have you seen Theorist ask stuff? Have you seen how she's diplomatic and consequently people answer her politely as well? I know you know I am reasonable so please understand my point.

There is a way to approach sensitive discussions without coming off as being bigoted, I am not saying you are but I can see if anyone perceives it that way. The stuff you're questioning is at the core of others' personalities, their belief system and defines who they are. If you are insensitive then don't expect proper answers.

[Monk]

Re: The punishment of apostate

bella so you are big on fornication. And Jesus(pbuh) thought it as a great sin.. here is some thing for you.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
(luke 6:46)

dude ask your self how far you have come from his teaching.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

I have clarified that question was not making digs at other religions, it was about the religion you follow and bella is not following Islam any more, so she should have been careful to call Allah cruel and Islam sexist. She should have option for not replying or wording her opinion in better way. Her post was not liked by many people who got the title of bigots and you keep on hitting like button to show that you don't find any problem in her post. That makes people make assumptions about you attitude, when you are still claiming to be respectful towards all the religions.

When it comes to peace, sometimes bitter truths should be kept inside hearts. Because Truth is not an absolute term and there is no measure to call a response honest or dishonest.

Thank You.

You did it again. You gloss over the following post from you

"sexist. You followed up her post with this post

"If you wish to share, may I ask what were those factors leading to dissatisfaction? Was it only 'Dos' and 'Do nots', as I could understand from your post hilighting freedom part."

So please don't repeat the same argument.

As for likes that I gave that weren't appreciated by others, pot calling the kettle black.

In one thread u made a statement debates like these r useless. No one learns anything. And that u wont participate in such debates. Sounded noble.

Immediately after you took sides..And liked several posts from one side of the debate. The side that initiated personal attacks.

so please, for the love of God, drop this charade.

Let me add one more thing. The other debator used same logic. That "several" people feel one way. So I must be wrong.

I respectfully reject such arguments. Though u r free to make them as often as u want.

Thank you.

[bella88]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Bella, I am not that religious myself and I have a lot of questions about stuff but there is a way of asking questions. Your tone I am sorry to say is laced with hostility. Have you seen Theorist ask stuff? Have you seen how she's diplomatic and consequently people answer her politely as well? I know you know I am reasonable so please understand my point.

There is a way to approach sensitive discussions without coming off as being bigoted, I am not saying you are but I can see if anyone perceives it that way. The stuff you're questioning is at the core of others' personalities, their belief system and defines who they are. If you are insensitive then don't expect proper answers.

strange how you find my tone hostile, yet seem to ignore RV's hostile tone.. strange how you ignore diwana and other peoples attacking tone who don't let others voice their opinion. I don't expect anyone to be sensitive or insensitive. its very obvious that its perfectly okay to show insensitivity when it comes to atheism, secularity, homosexuality, liberal ideas, yet when it comes to criticism of islamic lifestyle, it's automatically considered out of line and insensitive. you might be reasonable when it comes to other things, but definitely not here.

[Southie]

Re: The punishment of apostate

Agree with everything above. On the last sentence, I understand ur position bella. Not disagreeing. Just wanted to add shak has been responsible for a lot of positive changes since he took over. (I think you will also agree).

Added content

Having said that, the use of the word "bigoted" is unfortunate. This is the 2nd time it has been used by same person in last say 2 to 3 weeks. I strongly disagreed the 1st time. This time, the context is different - that you can be perceived to be bigoted. I object to that perception and conclusion.

It is also regrettable that muqawees directly asking u why u left Islam is being glossed over. You didn't come out of the blue to state some controversial things.

As for ur posing questions impolitely, u always start politely. In this thread it was RV who was the aggressor. It is unfortunate she is not being subject to the same advice. So I will give it to her. Be polite like Psyah.

Bringing up some other polite person and comparing u to said person is not fair. As above sentence shows there r polite persons on the other side of the debate. Is everyone else required to live up to that standard of politeness?